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4 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Okay. Strip everyone of their secterian name. Everyone's Muslim now. There are so many muslims out there with different beliefs, how'll you indicate a particular person if you call everyone Muslim.

Why do you have the need to make such an indication? Our common ground is of a heavier weight than that what divides us.
 

 

6 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

No one denied this. Everyone's Muslim but not all Muslims follow Islam correctly.

True.

But that doesn't mean that therefore we have to invent terms like sunni and shia. Let's just look for Haqq.
 

 

13 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Al Ayyashi, from Ubeydullah Al Halby, (It  has  been  narrated) from  Abu Abdullah(asws) having  said:  ‘Amir-Al-Momineen (asws) said: ‘Ibrahim was neither a Jew nor a Christian[3:67] – Neither a Jew Praying to the  west,  nor  a  Christian  Praying  to  the  east, but  he  was  (an)  upright  (man), a Muslim (submitter)– he was upon the Religion of Muhammad (sawa)’. (Tafseer al-ayyashi).

You need to understand that the term we use today is out of need. The similar thing is used within Jews and Christians today.

Muslims also prayed towards the Qibla the jews prayed to and therefore the argument that this verse is simply based on the Qiblah issue is not sufficient.

And strive for Allah with the striving due to Him. He has chosen you and has not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty. [It is] the religion of your father, Abraham. Allah named you "Muslims" before [in former scriptures] and in this [revelation] that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people. So establish prayer and give zakah and hold fast to Allah . He is your protector; and excellent is the protector, and excellent is the helper.

Changing muslim into christian or jew is definitely something done by Allah himself and therefore a grave and serious matter.
 

 

18 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:
Tafseer bir raai is dangerous and Haraam (AFAIK).
    1. Shia or Sunni are divisions within a sect while Jew and Christian are whole religion in itself. Therefore comparison is absurd.
    2. Because there wasn't any need.
وَإِنَّ مِن شِيعَتِهِ لَإِبْرَاهِيمَ
   And indeed from his Shias, was Ibrahim [37:83]

What's the diffirence? Wether you call it religion or sect they both had the same Book and Prophets. It's rather a semantic issue.



 

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8 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

For me Ali AS is with haqq and haqq is with Ali AS. Rest are just claims and blames.

The people on  Haqq are minimum. It is not sect but individual. 

And it is aspectrum of belief. Some people have little haq and more falsehood. And some people have more falsehood and little haq. 

Just Take Tawheed. Shias too have wide difference in understanding Tawheed. All couldn't be correct or wrong. It is degree some more perfect and some less. 

Edited by islam25

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15 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Truth only one .That is accessible to all irrespective colour, creed or religious names. And that is Allah. 

I agree with you. The second meaning is he who is right i.e. he is on Haqq.

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9 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Just Take Tawheed. Shias too have wide difference in understanding Tawheed. All couldn't be correct or wrong. It is degree some more perfect and some less. 

The question arises here that if only tauheed / oneness is the criteria then the people of book including jews and Christians do not deny the existence of Allah swt.

Then how you can verify the claim based on tauheed alone? Are they also lying with haqq? Would you like to say on it?

Edited by skyweb1987

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1 minute ago, Faruk said:

I agree with you. The second meaning is he who is right i.e. he is on Haqq.

All most every individual in world has both haqq and falsehood with him. But it changes in degree from individual to individual. Some more haqq and less falsehood and vice versa. 

Just checkthere is gross difference in understanding of Tawheed in shia scholars. 

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3 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Why do you have the need to make such an indication? Our common ground is of a heavier weight than that what divides us.

The difference amongst sects of Muslim is lot heavier and can easily push a sect into deepest pit of hellfire. eg. Not believing in 12 Imams.

6 minutes ago, Faruk said:

But that doesn't mean that therefore we have to invent terms like sunni and shia. Let's just look for Haqq.

You didn't read the tafseer I posted. Imam Baqir (a.s.) congratulated and approved the term Shia for his follower. If Imam approved then who one cares if anyone criticizes it.

8 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Changing muslim into christian or jew is definitely something done by Allah himself and therefore a grave and serious matter.

Again saying, Prophet used the word Shia and Prophet (sawa) doesn't speak of his own but the revealation. So, this also is done by Allah Himself.

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Just now, skyweb1987 said:

The question arises here that if only tauheed / oneness is the criteria then the people of book including jews and Christians do not deny the existence of Allah swt.

Then how you can verify the claim based on taunted alone? 

The Tawheed I gave for understanding. Definitely there other things too.

 

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8 minutes ago, islam25 said:

All most every individual in world has both haqq and falsehood with him. But it changes in degree from individual to individual. Some more haqq and less falsehood and vice versa. 

Just checkthere is gross difference in understanding of Tawheed in shia scholars. 

Islam is not only a matter of Tawhid bro'. Nor of Ibada nor Ilm.

Iblis understood and practised Tawhid, possesed more Ilm than all Ulama combined and worshipped Allah for thousands of years.

The thing that made him cursed was neglecting the status of Adam a.s. Same happened with the jews in relation to Sayyidina Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. and with the Ummayyads in relation to the Aale Muhammad a.s.

You should understand that acknowledging their true status is a pillar of Islam.

Edited by Faruk

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21 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

The difference amongst sects of Muslim is lot heavier and can easily push a sect into deepest pit of hellfire. eg. Not believing in 12 Imams.

I believe that the diffirences are created because of the hadith collections and their content which differ from sect to sect.

 

21 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

You didn't read the tafseer I posted. Imam Baqir (a.s.) congratulated and approved the term Shia for his follower. If Imam approved then who one cares if anyone criticizes it.

To me this is not in line with the Quran. The term Shia used in Quran is actually connected to Nuh a.s. and not to Imam Ali. I believe this term started to lead a life on its own through the centuries. What started as a political distinction became a religious one.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Again saying, Prophet used the word Shia and Prophet (sawa) doesn't speak of his own but the revealation. So, this also is done by Allah Himself.

Allah did named us muslims. In former revelations and in this revelation. And there is no verse in the Quran that says otherwise.

Edited by Faruk

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14 minutes ago, islam25 said:

All most every individual in world has both haqq and falsehood with him. But it changes in degree from individual to individual. Some more haqq and less falsehood and vice versa. 

Just checkthere is gross difference in understanding of Tawheed in shia scholars. 

I do believe there are no levels of Tawheed. God is one and with that everything is said.

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18 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

 

Why are you not satisfied with the term muslim and what's wrong using it?

Edited by Faruk

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7 minutes ago, Faruk said:

I do believe there are no levels of Tawheed. God is one and with that everything is said.

Actually who you not gone through the what is understanding of Tawheed what scholars have said. Then you will come to know whom there degree of differences. 

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7 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Actually who you not gone through the what is understanding of Tawheed what scholars have said. Then you will come to know whom there degree of differences. 

I indeed do not know the specific details of what diffirent scholars claim to be inside the walls of Tawhid. I think it's the same discussion as about sufism in sunnism. Graves, intercession etcetera. That's not really a field of my interrests.

When ones only islamic source is the Quran and no hadith collection or whatsoever one will never come to the point that praying to others than Allah is an option unless one takes ahaadith believes them unconditionally and then ironically these ahaadith will be defended by Quranic verses by a number of scholars.

As I said not my field.

I am not saying graves should be levelled and decorated with sand only. I do even believe it is possible to talk with Prophets a.s. but I do only pray to Allah.

Edited by Faruk

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3 minutes ago, Faruk said:

I indeed do not know the specific details of what diffirent scholars claim to be inside the walls of Tawhid. I think it's the same discussion as about sufism in sunnism. Graves, intercession etcetera. That's not really a field of my interrests.

When one only knows the Quran and no hadith collection or whatsoever one will never come to the point that praying to other than Allah is an option unless one takes ahaadith and then ironically these ahaadith will be defended by Quranic verses.

As I said not my field.

So they difference among scholars on given pillar of Islam doesn't mean one Haqq and other is baatil. But it only indicates that there is difference only in closeness from Haqq. 

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19 minutes ago, Faruk said:

To me this is not in line with the Quran. The term Shia used in Quran is actually connected to Nuh a.s. and not to Imam Ali. I believe this term started to lead a life on its own through the centuries. What started as a political distinction became a religious one

Dude, what thoughts. It is said by an infallible Imam. It is inline with Quran and commands of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. It cannot be wrong. Go and check and narrative exegesis. If you do not want to believe Imam's word the I'm done.

Check the concerned ayah in below tafseer.

https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/TafseerHub-e-Ali/CH37_SuraAlSaffaat_Verses1-84.pdf

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16 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Why are you not satisfied with the term muslim and what's wrong using it?

You can call Muslim but it's about the sub-divisons. There need's some identification for every set of beliefs.

Okay, from now on call yourself and everyone else 'Human' and don't call yourself Faruk.

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34 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

You can call Muslim but it's about the sub-divisons. There need's some identification for every set of beliefs.

Okay, from now on call yourself and everyone else 'Human' and don't call yourself Faruk.

Allah gave people names and beside that there are no sub-divisions in Quran.

Edited by Faruk

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55 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Why are you not satisfied with the term muslim and what's wrong using it?

Sorry for jumping into your discussion, but can just briefly elaborate on your understanding of sect?

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23 minutes ago, power said:

Sorry for jumping into your discussion, but can just briefly elaborate on your understanding of sect?

I do acknowledge there are diffirent sects and we probably have the same definition (diffirences in leadership, dogma's and fiqh).

But I also do believe that we should not distant from eachother but should look for the common grounds we have and once had.

I did not made this up by myself but base this on the Quran. Allah named us muslims and emphasizes muslim-unity.

Edited by Faruk

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27 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Allah gave people names and beside that there are no sub-divisions in Quran.

You forgot hadith e Thaqalain. Quran and Ahlulbait (ams) should be held together and you want everything from Quran and don't want to turn to Ahlulbait (ams). You even ignored a hadith that I posted before.

There's a hadith that there will be 73 sects and only 1 is going to Jannah and that hadith is very clear. So your version of everyone is Muslim holds no weight. 

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12 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

You forgot hadith e Thaqalain. Quran and Ahlulbait (ams) should be held together and you want everything from Quran and don't want to turn to Ahlulbait (ams). You even ignored a hadith that I posted before.

 

Ahl al-Bayt a.s. is always in line with Quran dear brother. That is why the Quran is the heavier thing. Weight of the Quran is the heaviest.


 

Quote

There's a hadith that there will be 73 sects and only 1 is going to Jannah and that hadith is very clear. So your version of everyone is Muslim holds no weight. 

That's a whole diffirent thing you mention now. What we're talking about now is that we should call ourselves by the name Allah gave to us which is muslim.

I even dare to add that calling oneself muslim is a characteristic of the saved sect.

Edited by Faruk

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Besides that name-labelling isn't very fruitful in a discussion. It's not about the shia or sunni stance but about Haqq just as the tragedy of Karbala is not a Shia or Sunni issue but a muslim issue. An issue about who was on Haqq.

Once the terms sunni or shia are mentioned the discussion stops and the throwing of mud starts.

Edited by Faruk

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For example if in a discussion with sunni's I do condemn Yazid and they tell me straight away 'aah so you're a shia' then how stupid does that sounds?

What has it to do with shia or sunni. It's about who was on Haqq. This sectarian bogus is only inflaming distance and selective deafness and the enemies of Islam hates both sunni and shia. They take advantage of the use of these labels.

We should lift the boundaries first and look at things objectively.

 

Edited by Faruk

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1 hour ago, Sirius_Bright said:

... Go and check and narrative exegesis. If you do not want to believe Imam's word the I'm done.

Check the concerned ayah in below tafseer.

https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/TafseerHub-e-Ali/CH37_SuraAlSaffaat_Verses1-84.pdf

You could have cited a page number. Salam.

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17 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Ahl al-Bayt a.s. is always in line with Quran dear brother.

You don't say this biradar, because you just ignored a tradition from a member of Ahlulbait (ams) about a verse in discussion. Quran is not an ordinary book, it is the word of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. It has clear meaning and ambiguous (mohkam and mutashabeh) Ahlulbait (ams) can only explain the Quran.

23 minutes ago, Faruk said:

That's a whole diffirent thing you mention now. What we're talking about now is that we should call ourselves by the name Allah gave to us which is muslim.

Very much related. Allah gave us name Shia through Ahlulbait (alaihimus Salaam).

25 minutes ago, Faruk said:

I even dare to add that calling oneself muslim is a characteristic of the saved sect.

I don't expect anything else from you. 

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