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4 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

The first battle i.e. Badr. Prophet had 313 fighters while kuffar had 1000.

Jange Karbala: 72 vs 9 lakh. 

Lets say that they were fighting pagans and not Muslim. A Muslim majority cannot be wrong, minor groups are seen as fringe groups. How to refute further?

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2 minutes ago, M.IB said:

Well, little did follow prophet Ibrahim [as], so did for Musa [as] and Isa [as] and Noah [as] and Hud [as] and Lut [as] and Salih [as] etc..

It can be argued that Prophet (s.a.w.s) also had little followers at the beginning of his mission.

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2 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Lets say that they were fighting pagans and not Muslim. A Muslim majority cannot be wrong, minor groups are seen as fringe groups. How to refute further?

Yazid was calling himself khalifatullah. He deemed himself muslim and all those who paid him allegiance and fought Imam Hussain (a.s.) called themselves Muslims.

Thus, a majority (or numbers) is not the criteria to identify a correct group. 

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17 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Yazid was calling himself khalifatullah. He deemed himself muslim and all those who paid him allegiance and fought Imam Hussain (a.s.) called themselves Muslims.

Thus, a majority (or numbers) is not the criteria to identify a correct group. 

Good argument. But for the sake of argument lets say that Islamic orthodoxy wasn't well defined back there and this 'orthodoxy' came after. And now this majority in the orthodoxy cannot be wrong. They can also say that it was politically and not relogious. let's exercise the brain :)

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1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

It's a well know argument among Sunnis that the majority cannot be wrong and that minor groups saying that a majority is wrong is itself wrong. How does shias refute this claim?

The claim has no logical basis.

There is no reason why the majority should always be right.

Quite often, the majority is wrong.

For example, there are more Chrstians in the world than Muslims.

That makes Christians right and Muslims wrong. 

13 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

But for the sake of argument lets say that Islamic orthodoxy wasn't well defined back there and this 'orthodoxy' came after. And now this majority in the orthodoxy cannot be wrong. 

As I said, the argument has no logical base.

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The following verses of Quran states that majority will be wrong.

Most people are not Grateful. 2:243

Most people do not know 7:187

Most of the people do not believe 11:17

and do not remember Allah save a little 4:142

little is that you give Thanks 7:10

so they shall not believe except a few 4:155

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1 hour ago, Waseem162 said:

The following verses of Quran states that majority will be wrong.

Most people are not Grateful. 2:243

Most people do not know 7:187

Most of the people do not believe 11:17

and do not remember Allah save a little 4:142

little is that you give Thanks 7:10

so they shall not believe except a few 4:155

Marvelous words to confirm the rejection of majority 

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4 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

It's a well know argument among Sunnis that the majority cannot be wrong

And as per Quran, majority is always wrong. What a coincidence with Muslims!

وَمَا يُؤْمِنُ أَكْثَرُهُمْ بِاللّهِ إِلاَّ وَهُم مُّشْرِكُونَ
12:106

أَمْ تَحْسَبُ أَنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ أَوْ يَعْقِلُونَ إِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا كَالْأَنْعَامِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ سَبِيلًا
25:44

لَقَدْ حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ عَلَى أَكْثَرِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
36:9

وَلَقَدْ ذَرَأْنَا لِجَهَنَّمَ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ الْجِنِّ وَالإِنسِ لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ لاَّ يَفْقَهُونَ بِهَا وَلَهُمْ أَعْيُنٌ لاَّ يُبْصِرُونَ بِهَا وَلَهُمْ آذَانٌ لاَّ يَسْمَعُونَ بِهَا
7:179

 

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5 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

It's a well know argument among Sunnis that the majority cannot be wrong and that minor groups saying that a majority is wrong is itself wrong. How does shias refute this claim?

Within Sunnism there are  different groups who have different ideological views of Islam. So, i asks you which group is considered the majority?

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Quran 6:116

"And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah . They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying."

Mathew 7:13-14

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

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On 2017-09-07 at 4:35 AM, SunniBrother said:

Lets say that they were fighting pagans and not Muslim. A Muslim majority cannot be wrong, minor groups are seen as fringe groups. How to refute further?

Aisha's army had more Muslims than Imam Ali's (as) army, does that mean Aisha was on the haq and Imam ali (as) was not?

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What is interesting is that the majority that lived in the prophets time decided to follow Abu Bakr. I always wonder why since it is known what the prophet daid about Ali as. so there must be a reason for them. Or maybe they just followed the one with more money or political influence? Did Abu Bakr have that?

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22 minutes ago, Muslim96 said:

What is interesting is that the majority that lived in the prophets time decided to follow Abu Bakr. I always wonder why since it is known what the prophet daid about Ali as. so there must be a reason for them. Or maybe they just followed the one with more money or political influence? Did Abu Bakr have that?

They were worried about maintaining unity. There was a lot of tribulations after the Prophet (s.a.w.s) died. There was people returning to the pre-Islamic tribalism, there was people leaving Islam. And those pagan Arabs that didn't embraced Islam were ready to wage war on the Muslims, there was also false prophets arising. So they were more worried in maintaining the unity.

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On 9/7/2017 at 3:29 AM, Sirius_Bright said:

The first battle i.e. Badr. Prophet had 313 fighters while kuffar had 1000.

Jange Karbala: 72 vs 9 lakh. 

9 lakh ? 900,000?

Where does this come from ?

By comparison both Alis and muawiyah army is less than 300 k  at the time of siffin

Even Genghis Khan didn't have that many 

 

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1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

They were worried about maintaining unity. There was a lot of tribulations after the Prophet (s.a.w.s) died. There was people returning to the pre-Islamic tribalism, there was people leaving Islam. And those pagan Arabs that didn't embraced Islam were ready to wage war on the Muslims, there was also false prophets arising. So they were more worried in maintaining the unity.

Maybe this was the only way to outplay Imam Ali a.s. Who knows?

 

On ‎7‎-‎9‎-‎2017 at 10:08 AM, SunniBrother said:

It's a well know argument among Sunnis that the majority cannot be wrong and that minor groups saying that a majority is wrong is itself wrong. How does shias refute this claim?

The claim is refuting itself as it is a circular reasoning. What is the logic behind it? There isn't.

Edited by Faruk

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16 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

9 lakh ? 900,000?

Where does this come from ?

By comparison both Alis and muawiyah army is less than 300 k  at the time of siffin

Even Genghis Khan didn't have that many 

 

Well, with such a nikcname one is permitted to exaggerate a bit.

Edited by Faruk

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1 hour ago, Muslim96 said:

What is interesting is that the majority that lived in the prophets time decided to follow Abu Bakr. I always wonder why since it is known what the prophet daid about Ali as. so there must be a reason for them. Or maybe they just followed the one with more money or political influence? Did Abu Bakr have that?

I believe there was a general dislike towards the Ahl al-Bayt a.s.

Iblis who worshipped Allah for centuries long and was more knowledgeable than all scholars combined together failed by not accepting and neglecting just that one single command. Same counted for the jews by not completing the shahada by neglecting Rasulullah s.a.w.a.s. Same counts for the majority that lacks love for the Ahl al-Bayt a.s.

The problem is not tawheed as is emphasized nowadays all the time. It actually is that one step further.

People want the Message without the Messenger or Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. without the Aale Muhammad a.s.

That actually doesn't work. The same story keeps on repeating since creation.

Edited by Faruk

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20 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

Is there not hadith where one of the companion said that they should deserve the khalifa state instead of the family of the Prophet, because they already got the prophethood?

That just doesn't make sense.

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

Maybe this was the only way to outplay Imam Ali a.s. Who knows?

 

The claim is refuting itself as it is a circular reasoning. What is the logic behind it? There isn't.

outplay? No. But the question is. What it would happen to the ummah if the ansar at saqifa elected a 'khalifa' without Omar and Abu Bakr intervention? They couldn't take Ali (r.a) there because the family were busy with the funeral. The rest of the ummah was mourning. So again, what would happen if they elected a khalifa without Omar and Abu Bakr intervention? Can you imagine the bigger disaster or not?

Edited by SunniBrother

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