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How Twelvers view Qur'an 9:10

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11 hours ago, Salsabeel said:
Known as the Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyah1

ومن خطبة له (عليه السلام) المعروفة بالشِّقْشِقِيَّة

وتشتمل على الشكوى من أمر الخلافة ثم ترجيح صبره عنها ثم مبايعة الناس له

Beware! By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)2 dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his death).

أَمَا وَالله لَقَدْ تَقَمَّصَها ابْنُ اَبى قُحافَةَ ، وَإِنَّهُ لَيَعْلَمُ أَنَّ مَحَلِّيَ مِنهَا مَحَلُّ القُطْبِ مِنَ الرَّحَا، يَنْحَدِرُ عَنِّي السَّيْلُ، وَلا يَرْقَى إِلَيَّ الطَّيْرُ، فَسَدَلْتُ دُونَهَا ثَوْباً، وَطَوَيْتُ عَنْهَا كَشْحاً، وَطَفِقْتُ أَرْتَئِي بَيْنَ أَنْ أَصُولَ بِيَد جَذَّاءَ، أَوْ أَصْبِرَ عَلَى طَخْيَة عَمْيَاءَ، يَهْرَمُ فيهَا الكَبيرُ، وَيَشِيبُ فِيهَا الصَّغِيرُ، وَيَكْدَحُ فِيهَا مُؤْمِنٌ حَتَّى يَلْقَى رَبَّهُ.

Proposes Patience in Absence of Supporters

ترجيح الصبرعلى فقد الاعوان

I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was [Edited Out]ing in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself.

(Then he quoted al-A`sha’s verse):

My days are now passed on the camel’s back (in difficulty) while there were days (of ease) when I enjoyed the company of Jabir’s brother Hayyan.3

فَرَأَيْتُ أَنَّ الصَّبْرَ عَلَى هَاتَا أَحْجَى، فَصَبَرتُ وَفي الْعَيْنِ قَذىً، وَفي الحَلْقِ شَجاً، أرى تُرَاثي نَهْباً، حَتَّى مَضَى الاْوَّلُ لِسَبِيلِهِ، فَأَدْلَى بِهَا إِلَى ابْنِ الْخَطّابِ بَعْدَهُ. ( ثم تمثل بقول الاعشى):

شَتّانَ ما يَومي عَاى كُوْرِها * و يَوْمُ حَيَّانَ أخي جابِرِ

It is strange that during his lifetime he wished to be released from the caliphate but he confirmed it for the other one after his death. No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves. This one put the Caliphate in a tough enclosure where the utterance was haughty and the touch was rough. Mistakes were in plenty and so also the excuses therefore. One in contact with it was like the rider of an unruly camel. If he pulled up its rein the very nostril would be slit, but if he let it loose he would be thrown. Consequently, by Allah people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation.

فَيَا عَجَباً!! بَيْنَا هُوَ يَسْتَقِيلُها في حَيَاتِهِ إِذْ عَقَدَهَا لاخَرَ بَعْدَ وَفَاتِهِ ـ لَشَدَّ مَا تَشَطَّرَا ضَرْعَيْهَا ! ـ فَصَيَّرَهَا في حَوْزَة خَشْنَاءَ، يَغْلُظُ كَلْمُهَا، وَيَخْشُنُ مَسُّهَا، وَيَكْثُرُ العِثَارُ فِيهَا وَالاْعْتَذَارُ مِنْهَا، فَصَاحِبُهَا كَرَاكِبِ الصَّعْبَةِ، إِنْ أَشْنَقَ لَهَا خَرَمَ، وَإِنْ أَسْلَسَ لَهَا تَقَحَّمَ، فَمُنِيَ النَّاسُ ـ لَعَمْرُ اللهِ ـ بِخَبْط وَشِمَاس، وَتَلَوُّن وَاعْتِرَاض.

Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group4 and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! What had I to do with this “consultation”? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high.

One of them turned against me because of his hatred and the other got inclined the other way due to his in-law relationship and this thing and that thing, till the third man of these people stood up with heaving breasts between his dung and fodder. With him his children of his grand-father, (Umayyah) also stood up swallowing up Allah’s wealth5 like a camel devouring the foliage of spring, till his rope broke down, his actions finished him and his gluttony brought him down prostrate.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-Allah-son-abu-quhafah

5

Salam,

That doesn't prove that Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) were selfishly motivated and that they were power hungry (astaghfirullah).  I am well aware of this sermon and I don't see this as proving that they had "selfishly motivated evil intentions".  If I were listening to this sermon I would like to think that I would have been in full support and in agreement with Imam Ali (as).  And yet, I would never say that Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) were selfishly motivated.   

I am not the type of person to "pretend" there was no conflict or no tension and that everyone got along like as if it were some fake rosy or romantic movie.  tensions and conflicts and arguments are inevitable, taking sides are inevitable, but judging someone's heart (especially when there is no substantial proof to rely on) is not justifiable.  

   

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 9/5/2017 at 7:39 AM, Shi3i_jadeed said:

This is quite odd to see a "shia" have a positive opinion about abu bakr and umar given the many many many ahadith in the shia corpus of hadith that curse abu bakr and umar declare them (and their two daughters) apostates not only that by declaring anyone who loves them also to be apostates. You cannot love ahlul bayt (as) and love their enemies. 

If you want to call me Sunni, you are more than welcome to do so (if that is what floats your boat) :)  

Please show me these ahadith with their chain and grading.    

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On ‎05‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 8:39 AM, Shi3i_jadeed said:

This is quite odd to see a "shia" have a positive opinion about abu bakr and umar given the many many many ahadith in the shia corpus of hadith that curse abu bakr and umar declare them (and their two daughters) apostates not only that by declaring anyone who loves them also to be apostates. You cannot love ahlul bayt (as) and love their enemies. 

Shia corpus or Twelver corpus? Were do you see Imam Ali (r.a) takfeering them? And woow, anyone who respect them are apostates? Maybe Imam Ali (r.a) was a apostate also for giving advise to them during their caliphates.Wow... Twelver extremism is like wahhabi extremism. Those two daughters are the wifes of the Prophet (s.a.w.s) they may have committed mistakes but all of them repented, especially bibi Aisha (r.a) who spent the rest of her life cursing Muawiyah. Maybe you aslo think the Prophet (s.a.w.s) is a apostate for marrying their daughters and respecting Abu Bakr and Umar? Astaqfirullah.

Edited by SunniBrother

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36 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

That doesn't prove that Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) were selfishly motivated and that they were power hungry (astaghfirullah)

Alaikas-Salam brother, 

May I know your opinion (we are not to judge nor we know the secrets of hearts) as to what made both of these companions to forgot the ahadith like ghadir, thaqalain, what was said by Prophet about Imam Ali in battle of khyber & trench. They knew the ta'veel of Imam e Mubeen, they knew the ayah e Vilayat etc.

Why they did all this? What are the possible motives behind their actions?

36 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

am not the type of person to "pretend" there was no conflict or no tension and that everyone got along like as if it were some fake rosy or romantic movie.  tensions and conflicts and arguments are inevitable, taking sides are inevitable, but judging someone's heart (especially when there is no substantial proof to rely on) is not justifiable.  

Let me quote a hadith here:

"Al Haqqo ma'aa Ali, wal Aliyyo ma'aa Al Haqq"

Help me brother, to understand now, how should I see those who come against Ali (a.s)? 

If Ali is with Haqq then what will be the one who come against Ali (a.s)? Whether in any verbal or armed conflict.

Edited by Salsabeel

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1 minute ago, SunniBrother said:

Shia corpus or Twelver corpus? Were do you see Imam Ali (r.a) takfeering them? And woow, anyone who respect them are apostates? Wow... Twelver extremism is like wahhabi extremism. Those two daughters are the wifes of the Prophet (s.a.w.s) they may have committed mistakes but all of them repented, especially bibi Aisha (r.a) who spent the rest of her life cursing Muawiyah.

Mr.i am shia  I do not belive that they were kafir. Definitely they were muslims. But they events that happened after Prophet Muhammad saww led gradual disintegration and change from the true Islam. Now how much they are responsible for it Allah is best. 

But yes Imam Ali did best thing that despite differences he never let that Ummah should face a choase and fitnah. Despite Ali having such  a great spiritual status. He Always did the best for Ummah It Is unfortunate that some shia go to extremes to call first three kafir. Yes they did mistakes but not kufur. 

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2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Alaikas-Salam brother, 

May I know your opinion (we are not to judge nor we know the secrets of hearts) as to what made both of these companions to forgot the ahadith like ghadir, thaqalain, what was said by Prophet about Imam Ali in battle of khyber & trench. They knew the ta'veel of Imam e Mubeen, they knew the ayah e Vilayat etc.

Why they did all this? What are the possible motives behind their actions?

Let me quote a hadith here:

"Al Aliyyo ma'aa Al-Haqq , wal Haqqo ma'aa Ali"

Help me brother, to understand now, how should I see those who come against Ali (a.s)? 

If Ali is with Haqq then what will be the one who come against Ali (a.s)? Whether in any verbal or armed conflict.

Yes. Ali is with Haqq. When they differed with imam Ali. They were wrong but not kufur. 

Kufur means deliberately denying Tawheed and Risalat .

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Just now, islam25 said:

Yes. Ali is with Haqq. When they differed with imam Ali. They were wrong but not kufur. 

Kufur means deliberately denying Tawheed and Risalat .

I am not saying kafir to anyone. I am just quoting some historical events which perhaps related to verse 49:2

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

I am not saying kafir to anyone. I am just quoting some historical events which perhaps related to verse 49:2

I don't see how this verse relate to them. Aren't you twisting the Qur'an to suit your view like those guys who takfeered the Sahaba and Ali (r.a) because "Only Allah rule"? Ali (r.a) was on haq but that's it, we can quote several hadiths which Ali (r.a) agree with the first two caliphates and hadiths which Umar (r.a) take advise from Ali (r.a) and Ibn Abbas (r.a). Who was Ali (r.a) adoptive son? Muhammad Ibn Abu Bakr (r.a) which was Aisha (r.a) brother. There's a hadith in which Abu Bakr (r.a) take Alhuseyn (r.a) in his arms and say "Oh child, you look more like your grandfather then Ali (r.a). Ali (r.a) began laughing." I bet your extreme clerics don't show this hadiths of mutual respect. Why hate Aisha (r.a) ? Didn't Ali (r.a) forgave her? Didn't she spent her life cursing Muawiyah after? Who killed her wasn't Muawiyah? By hating Aisha (r.a) people are just as low as Muawiyah.

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1 minute ago, SunniBrother said:

don't see how this verse relate to them. Aren't you twisting the Qur'an to suit your view like those guys who takfeered the Sahaba and Ali (r.a)

It appears that you are lacking tolerance. How can anyone discuss history with you!

Just quoting my previous comments to remind you:

On 9/4/2017 at 11:20 AM, Salsabeel said:

Surah Al-Hujraat, Verse 2:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَرْفَعُوا أَصْوَاتَكُمْ فَوْقَ صَوْتِ النَّبِيِّ وَلَا تَجْهَرُوا لَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ كَجَهْرِ بَعْضِكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ أَن تَحْبَطَ أَعْمَالُكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لَا تَشْعُرُونَ

O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became null while you do not perceive.
(English - Shakir)

Everyone should be careful about this clause. Every deed become "habat", in some serious cases specially related to Prophet (pbuh) and perhaps the Ahlul Bayt (a.s) as well accoding to various sahih traditions.

 

On 9/4/2017 at 7:17 PM, Salsabeel said:

Obviously, as the verse starts with the phrase "ya ayyuhalladhina aamanu", I have not presented this verse to conclude that its revelation is a proof of "tahbata aamalokum" of Abu Bakr's or Umar's. 

Rather, I have presented this verse to only show you this important clause. May be you will see in history, when Prophet (pbuh) was on his death bed (bister e marg), asking for paper & pen so that he may left for ummah a writing & those who present there noised too much & raised voices before prophet, denied to give him the paper & pen.

And may be you will see in history, the daughter of Prophet asking for her right in the inheritence of his father & she was denied. 

 

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4 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

I don't see how this verse relate to them. Aren't you twisting the Qur'an to suit your view like those guys who takfeered the Sahaba and Ali (r.a) because "Only Allah rule"? Ali (r.a) was on haq but that's it, we can quote several hadiths which Ali (r.a) agree with the first two caliphates and hadiths which Umar (r.a) take advise from Ali (r.a) and Ibn Abbas (r.a). Who was Ali (r.a) adoptive son? Muhammad Ibn Abu Bakr (r.a) which was Aisha (r.a) brother. There's a hadith in which Abu Bakr (r.a) take Alhuseyn (r.a) in his arms and say "Oh child, you look more like your grandfather then Ali (r.a). Ali (r.a) began laughing." I bet your extreme clerics don't show this hadiths of mutual respect. Why hate Aisha (r.a) ? Didn't Ali (r.a) forgave her? Didn't she spent her life cursing Muawiyah after? Who killed her wasn't Muawiyah? By hating Aisha (r.a) people are just as low as Muawiyah.

Mr . Definitely ist three Khalifa were muslims. And Imam lived with them and served islam best .But the situations they confronted imam Ali they were wrong. Same is true but Aisha. 

But Muawiya was the won who damaged the Islam most. Even more than yazeed la.

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2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

It appears that you are lacking tolerance. How can anyone discuss history with you!

Just quoting my previous comments to remind you:

 

 

We still don't takfeer them. And we can ask Allah to forgive their mistakes. All the sahaba did mistakes in one way or the other may Allah forgive them. Muawiyah is other case because the Prophet (s.a.w.s) said he (Muawiyah) would die outside of Islam.

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25 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I am not saying kafir to anyone. I am just quoting some historical events which perhaps related to verse 49:2

Yes. That is true and universal. Even regarding muslims Allah has warned many times. 

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8 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Ali (r.a) was on haq but that's it, we can quote several hadiths which Ali (r.a) agree with the first two caliphates and hadiths which Umar (r.a) take advise from Ali (r.a) and Ibn Abbas (r.a).

:) I am trying to smile, brother but my eyes shed tears whenever I read Islamic history. Its not simply "thats it". 

13 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Why hate Aisha (r.a) ? Didn't Ali (r.a) forgave her?

What happened with the coffin of Imam Hassan (a.s)? Why the arrows were rained on his coffin? Who denied the burial of grandson of Prophet in the shoulder of Prophet's grave?

These events marks that the "saghat quloob" remain saghat even after the battle of jamal.

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

:) I am trying to smile, brother but my eyes shed tears whenever I read Islamic history. Its not simply "thats it". 

What happened with the coffin of Imam Hassan (a.s)? Why the arrows were rained on his coffin? Who denied the burial of grandson of Prophet in the shoulder of Prophet's grave?

These events marks that the "saghat quloob" remain saghat even after the battle of jamal.

Aisha (r.a) died before Alhuseyn (r.a). I don't see what are you relating here.

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2 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Aisha (r.a) died before Alhuseyn (r.a). I don't see what are you relating here.

I am talking about his elder brother, Hassan bin Ali (a.s).

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4 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

 

I am talking about his elder brother, Hassan bin Ali (a.s).

I know that Muawiyah paid Hasan (r.a) wife to kill him and promised money and Yazid (l.a) hand for her. She poisoned AlHasan (r.a). Muawiyah paid her for killing her husband but denied she marry Yazid (l.a) since she killed her husband why would she stop at killing other? Muawiyah killed Muhammad Ibn Abu Bakr (r.a) for refusing to curse Ali (r.a) and this made Aisha (r.a) start cursing him (Muawiyah) after every salat and after Muawiyah heard of Aisha (r.a) hatred for him he killed her.

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1 minute ago, SunniBrother said:

I know that Muawiyah paid Hasan (r.a) wife to kill him and promised money and Yazid (l.a) hand for her. She poisoned AlHasan (r.a). Muawiyah paid her for killing her husband but denied she marry Yazid (l.a) since she killed her husband why would she stop at killing other? Muawiyah killed Muhammad Ibn Abu Bakr (r.a) for refusing to curse Ali (r.a) and this made Aisha (r.a) start cursing him (Muawiyah) after every salat and after Muawiyah heard of Aisha (r.a) hatred for him he killed her.

Read the history what happened after the martyrdom of Imam Hassan? Where his family took his coffin for burial & what happened. 

These Masomeen (a.s) recieved pain from the ummah even after their death. 

 

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The burial of Hasan's body near that of his grandfather, Muhammad, was another problem which could have led to bloodshed. Hasan had instructed his brothers to bury him near his grandfather, but that if they feared evil, then they were to bury him in the Cemetery of Al-Baqi. The Umayyad governor, Saʿid ibn al-ʿĀṣ, did not interfere, but Marwanswore that he would not permit Al-Hasan to be buried near Muhammad with Abu Bakr andUmar, while Uthman was buried in the Cemetery of Al-Baqi. Banu Hashim and Banu Umayyah were on the verge of a fight, with their supporters brandishing their weapons. At this point, Abu Hurairah, who was on the side of Banu Hashim, despite having previously served Mu‘awiyah on a mission to ask for the surrender of the killers of Uthman,[48] tried to reason with Marwan, telling him how Muhammad had highly regarded Hasan and Husayn.[49] Nevertheless, Marwan, who was a cousin of Uthman, was unconvinced, and Aisha, while sitting on a mule surrounded by her supporters, seeing the parties and their weapons, decided not to permit Hasan to be buried near his grandfather, fearing evil would occur. She said: "The apartment is mine; I shall not permit anyone to be buried in it.[50][51] Ibn Abbas, who was also present at the burial, condemned A'ishah by comparing her sitting on the mule at the funeral to her sitting on a camel in a war against Al-Hasan's father at the Battle of Jamal. Her refusal to allow Hasan to be buried next to his grandfather, despite allowing her father, Abu Bakr, and Umar to be buried there, offended the supporters of Ali.[49][52][53][54] ThenMuhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah reminded Husayn that Hasan made the matter conditional by saying "unless you fear evil." Ibn al-Hanafiyyah further asked "What evil could be greater than what you see?" And so the body was carried to the Cemetery of Al-Baqi.[5][47] Marwan joined the carriers, and, when questioned about it, said that he gave his respect to a man "whose hilm (Arabic:حِـلـم‎‎, forbearance) weighed mountains."[55]Governor Sa‘id ibn al-‘As led the funeral prayer.[56]

(Wikipedia)

Edited by Salsabeel

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1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

Shia corpus or Twelver corpus? Were do you see Imam Ali (r.a) takfeering them? And woow, anyone who respect them are apostates? Maybe Imam Ali (r.a) was a apostate also for giving advise to them during their caliphates.Wow... Twelver extremism is like wahhabi extremism. Those two daughters are the wifes of the Prophet (s.a.w.s) they may have committed mistakes but all of them repented, especially bibi Aisha (r.a) who spent the rest of her life cursing Muawiyah. Maybe you aslo think the Prophet (s.a.w.s) is a apostate for marrying their daughters and respecting Abu Bakr and Umar? Astaqfirullah.

He committed a sin because he went against the fatwas stating not to call any of them kafirs.  

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7 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

He committed a sin because he went against the fatwas stating not to call any of them kafirs.  

There is nothing better than the zikr which He has revealed for us. It is our support, support of all distressed hearts. We recite the zikr & give peace to our hearts. 

Surah Al-Furqan, Verse 27:

وَيَوْمَ يَعَضُّ الظَّالِمُ عَلَىٰ يَدَيْهِ يَقُولُ يَا لَيْتَنِي اتَّخَذْتُ مَعَ الرَّسُولِ سَبِيلًا

And the day when the unjust one shall bite his hands saying: O! would that I had taken a way with the Apostle

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Furqan, Verse 28:

يَا وَيْلَتَىٰ لَيْتَنِي لَمْ أَتَّخِذْ فُلَانًا خَلِيلًا

O woe is me! would that I had not taken such a one for a friend!

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 13:

يَوْمَ يَقُولُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ وَالْمُنَافِقَاتُ لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا انظُرُونَا نَقْتَبِسْ مِن نُّورِكُمْ قِيلَ ارْجِعُوا وَرَاءَكُمْ فَالْتَمِسُوا نُورًا فَضُرِبَ بَيْنَهُم بِسُورٍ لَّهُ بَابٌ بَاطِنُهُ فِيهِ الرَّحْمَةُ وَظَاهِرُهُ مِن قِبَلِهِ الْعَذَابُ

On the day when the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women will say to those who believe: Wait for us, that we may have light from your light; it shall be said: Turn back and seek a light. Then separation would be brought about between them, with a wall having a door in it; (as for) the inside of it, there shall be mercy in it, and (as for) the outside of it, before it there shall be punishment.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 14:

يُنَادُونَهُمْ أَلَمْ نَكُن مَّعَكُمْ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ وَلَٰكِنَّكُمْ فَتَنتُمْ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَتَرَبَّصْتُمْ وَارْتَبْتُمْ وَغَرَّتْكُمُ الْأَمَانِيُّ حَتَّىٰ جَاءَ أَمْرُ اللَّهِ وَغَرَّكُم بِاللَّهِ الْغَرُورُ

They will cry out to them: Were we not with you? They shall say: Yea! but you caused yourselves to fall into temptation, and you waited and doubted, and vain desires deceived you till the threatened punishment of Allah came, while the archdeceiver deceived you about Allah.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 15:

فَالْيَوْمَ لَا يُؤْخَذُ مِنكُمْ فِدْيَةٌ وَلَا مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مَأْوَاكُمُ النَّارُ هِيَ مَوْلَاكُمْ وَبِئْسَ الْمَصِيرُ

So today ransom shall not be accepted from you nor from those who disbelieved; your abode is the fire; it is your friend and evil is the resort.

(English - Shakir)

 

Surah At-Tahrim, Verse 10:

ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ كَانَتَا تَحْتَ عَبْدَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا صَالِحَيْنِ فَخَانَتَاهُمَا فَلَمْ يُغْنِيَا عَنْهُمَا مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئًا وَقِيلَ ادْخُلَا النَّارَ مَعَ الدَّاخِلِينَ

Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut: they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them so they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said: Enter both the fire with those who enter.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Ghafir, Verse 52:

يَوْمَ لَا يَنفَعُ الظَّالِمِينَ مَعْذِرَتُهُمْ وَلَهُمُ اللَّعْنَةُ وَلَهُمْ سُوءُ الدَّارِ

The day on which their excuse shall not benefit the unjust, and for them is curse and for them is the evil abode.

(English - Shakir)

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17 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

There is nothing better than the zikr which He has revealed for us. It is our support, support of all distressed hearts. We recite the zikr & give peace to our hearts. 

Surah Al-Furqan, Verse 27:

وَيَوْمَ يَعَضُّ الظَّالِمُ عَلَىٰ يَدَيْهِ يَقُولُ يَا لَيْتَنِي اتَّخَذْتُ مَعَ الرَّسُولِ سَبِيلًا

And the day when the unjust one shall bite his hands saying: O! would that I had taken a way with the Apostle

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Furqan, Verse 28:

يَا وَيْلَتَىٰ لَيْتَنِي لَمْ أَتَّخِذْ فُلَانًا خَلِيلًا

O woe is me! would that I had not taken such a one for a friend!

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 13:

يَوْمَ يَقُولُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ وَالْمُنَافِقَاتُ لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا انظُرُونَا نَقْتَبِسْ مِن نُّورِكُمْ قِيلَ ارْجِعُوا وَرَاءَكُمْ فَالْتَمِسُوا نُورًا فَضُرِبَ بَيْنَهُم بِسُورٍ لَّهُ بَابٌ بَاطِنُهُ فِيهِ الرَّحْمَةُ وَظَاهِرُهُ مِن قِبَلِهِ الْعَذَابُ

On the day when the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women will say to those who believe: Wait for us, that we may have light from your light; it shall be said: Turn back and seek a light. Then separation would be brought about between them, with a wall having a door in it; (as for) the inside of it, there shall be mercy in it, and (as for) the outside of it, before it there shall be punishment.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 14:

يُنَادُونَهُمْ أَلَمْ نَكُن مَّعَكُمْ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ وَلَٰكِنَّكُمْ فَتَنتُمْ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَتَرَبَّصْتُمْ وَارْتَبْتُمْ وَغَرَّتْكُمُ الْأَمَانِيُّ حَتَّىٰ جَاءَ أَمْرُ اللَّهِ وَغَرَّكُم بِاللَّهِ الْغَرُورُ

They will cry out to them: Were we not with you? They shall say: Yea! but you caused yourselves to fall into temptation, and you waited and doubted, and vain desires deceived you till the threatened punishment of Allah came, while the archdeceiver deceived you about Allah.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 15:

فَالْيَوْمَ لَا يُؤْخَذُ مِنكُمْ فِدْيَةٌ وَلَا مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مَأْوَاكُمُ النَّارُ هِيَ مَوْلَاكُمْ وَبِئْسَ الْمَصِيرُ

So today ransom shall not be accepted from you nor from those who disbelieved; your abode is the fire; it is your friend and evil is the resort.

(English - Shakir)

 

Surah At-Tahrim, Verse 10:

ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ كَانَتَا تَحْتَ عَبْدَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا صَالِحَيْنِ فَخَانَتَاهُمَا فَلَمْ يُغْنِيَا عَنْهُمَا مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئًا وَقِيلَ ادْخُلَا النَّارَ مَعَ الدَّاخِلِينَ

Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut: they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them so they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said: Enter both the fire with those who enter.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Ghafir, Verse 52:

يَوْمَ لَا يَنفَعُ الظَّالِمِينَ مَعْذِرَتُهُمْ وَلَهُمُ اللَّعْنَةُ وَلَهُمْ سُوءُ الدَّارِ

The day on which their excuse shall not benefit the unjust, and for them is curse and for them is the evil abode.

(English - Shakir)

 

Sorry, but I don't find your case convincing.  There is no justifiable explanation for assuming that Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) were selfishly motivated or were power hungry.  And I won't bother entering into a debate about this as I find such discussions useless and perhaps insulting to our Holy Prophet (S).   

Ethereal

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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24 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Sorry, but I don't find your case convincing.  There is no justifiable explanation for assuming that Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) were selfishly motivated or were power hungry.

Salamun Alaikum,

Brother, You are free to do whatever you feel good for yourself. I have not presented any case before you. This is the history & every student of history goes through that & build a personal opinion.

By the way, I have not received your response, if they were not power hungry or selfishly motivated, what were they?

19 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

May I know your opinion (we are not to judge nor we know the secrets of hearts) as to what made both of these companions to forgot the ahadith like ghadir, thaqalain, what was said by Prophet about Imam Ali in battle of khyber & trench. They knew the ta'veel of Imam e Mubeen, they knew the ayah e Vilayat etc.

Why they did all this? What are the possible motives behind their actions

 

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4 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Salamun Alaikum,

Brother, You are free to do whatever you feel good for yourself. I have not presented any case before you. This is the history & every student of history goes through that & build a personal opinion.

By the way, I have not received your response, if they were not power hungry or selfishly motivated, what were they?

 

Salam,

Firstly, just because your mind cannot find a reason for why they claimed the caliphate other than selfish motives and hunger for power, it does not automatically justify your judgement that they had selfish interests.  

In fact, your judgement may tell more about yourself than about them.  This is because it could be a projection of your subconscious self that, although goes unnoticed, has to errupt in some manner and form.  you might want to think about this seriously because if you cannot think of any other reasons besides selfish motives and hunger for power, then maybe these are the things that motivate you (at least subconsciously)?  Something for you to think about.

Secondly, there are many reasons that can be given for why they claimed the caliphate which (to me seem more plausible).  But it is important that I make the above points before I go into another long and possibly futile discussion or debate.

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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37 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Salam,

Firstly, just because your mind cannot find a reason for why they claimed the caliphate other than selfish motives and hunger for power, it does not automatically justify your judgement that they had selfish interests.  

In fact, your may judgement tells more about yourself than about them.  This is because it could be a projection of your subconscious self that, although goes unnoticed, has to errupt in some manner and form.  you might want to think about this seriously because if you cannot think of any other reasons besides selfish motives and power for hunger then maybe these are the things that motivate you (at least subconsciously)?  Something for you to think about.

Secondly, there are many reasons that can be given for why they claimed the caliphate which (to me seem more plausible).  But it is important that I make the above points before I go into another long and possibly futile discussion or debate.

 

 

The Khalifa are not pillars of Islam. And people have different openiin regarding there actions. Yes real judge of  ones intention is Allah. 

@Salsabeel.

And at end we are not here for giving judgments of ones faith. Definitely ones wrong actions will be called wrong so good are good. 

And only  Awlias are excellent in both faith and action. 

So we should struggle in getting excellence in Iman and action. 

And not futile unnecessary criticising anf giving judgments on others. 

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On 9/5/2017 at 4:39 PM, Shi3i_jadeed said:

This is quite odd to see a "shia" have a positive opinion about abu bakr and umar given the many many many ahadith in the shia corpus of hadith that curse abu bakr and umar declare them (and their two daughters) apostates not only that by declaring anyone who loves them also to be apostates. You cannot love ahlul bayt (as) and love their enemies. 

You may find many Apparent Shia but under cover salafi/sunni in this thread.

Do not take these statements as these do not represent the true history. 

Edited by skyweb1987

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