Jump to content
SunniBrother

How Twelvers view Qur'an 9:10

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

9:10 “ And from the Nomads around you are hypocrites, as well as from the city people, they persist in hypocricy. You do not know them, but We know them. We will punish them twice, then they will be returned to a great punishment.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

9:10 “ And from the Nomads around you are hypocrites, as well as from the city people, they persist in hypocricy. You do not know them, but We know them. We will punish them twice, then they will be returned to a great punishment.”

This is from verse 9:101

But the verse before this is 

9:100

 

YUSUFALI: The vanguard (of Islam)- the first of those who forsook (their homes) and of those who gave them aid, and (also) those who follow them in (all) good deeds,- well-pleased is Allah with them, as are they with Him: for them hath He prepared gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever: that is the supreme felicity.

Everyone worth his or her salt agrees that this verse includes Abu Bakr & Umar.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

This is from verse 9:101

But the verse before this is 

9:100

 

YUSUFALI: The vanguard (of Islam)- the first of those who forsook (their homes) and of those who gave them aid, and (also) those who follow them in (all) good deeds,- well-pleased is Allah with them, as are they with Him: for them hath He prepared gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever: that is the supreme felicity.

Everyone worth his or her salt agrees that this verse includes Abu Bakr & Umar.  

 

When was this verses revealed brother?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

When was this verses revealed brother?

I am not confident about the answer.  But you can google it and then let us know inshallah.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

9:10 “ And from the Nomads around you are hypocrites, as well as from the city people, they persist in hypocricy. You do not know them, but We know them. We will punish them twice, then they will be returned to a great punishment.”

The Qur’an does not guarantee automatic righteousness to all of the Prophet’s companions, nor does it grant all of them entrance into Paradise. Many of the righteous companions are praised and honored in the Qur’an, while others have been criticized - even cursed. The Qur’an says,

“Round about you [Muhammad and his community] and among you in Madinah are hypocrites and they are obstinate in hypocrisy. You do not know them, We know them, twice shall We punish them and in addition they shall be sent to a grievous penalty.” (9:101)

These and others verses, such as those found in Surah al-Tawbah(Repentance) and Surah al-Munafiqun (The Hypocrites) indicate that a group of hypocrites existed among the companions of the Prophet. Thus, according to the Qur’an, a group of companions was composed of the righteous and the unrighteous, the believers and the hypocrites, and although companionship was a great honor, it did not ensure immunity from error and this view has been adopted by the Shi’a scholars as well.

 

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

The Qur’an does not guarantee automatic righteousness to all of the Prophet’s companions, nor does it grant all of them entrance into Paradise. Many of the righteous companions are praised and honored in the Qur’an, while others have been criticized - even cursed. The Qur’an says,

“Round about you [Muhammad and his community] and among you in Madinah are hypocrites and they are obstinate in hypocrisy. You do not know them, We know them, twice shall We punish them and in addition they shall be sent to a grievous penalty.” (9:101)

These and others verses, such as those found in Surah al-Tawbah(Repentance) and Surah al-Munafiqun (The Hypocrites) indicate that a group of hypocrites existed among the companions of the Prophet. Thus, according to the Qur’an, a group of companions was composed of the righteous and the unrighteous, the believers and the hypocrites, and although companionship was a great honor, it did not ensure immunity from error and this view has been adopted by the Shi’a scholars as well.

 

still can't find any Sunni explanation to this verses. They maybe try to wobble you to the Jews who betrayed at medina but that don't make actuall sense since the Jews were not part of the sahaba and so we are left with this. Was Muawiyah part of that group in medina? The verse speak of the ansar and then point at hypocrites,maybe it can relate to the events of saqifa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

9:100

YUSUFALI: The vanguard (of Islam)- the first of those who forsook (their homes) and of those who gave them aid, and (also) those who follow them in (all) good deeds,- well-pleased is Allah with them, as are they with Him: for them hath He prepared gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever: that is the supreme felicity.

وَٱلسَّٰبِقُونَ ٱلْأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ ٱلْمُهَٰجِرِينَ وَٱلْأَنصَارِ وَٱلَّذِينَ ٱتَّبَعُوهُم بِإِحْسَٰنٍۢ رَّضِىَ ٱللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا۟ عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّٰتٍۢ تَجْرِى تَحْتَهَا ٱلْأَنْهَٰرُ خَٰلِدِينَ فِيهَآ أَبَدًۭا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ ٱلْفَوْزُ ٱلْعَظِيمُ {١٠٠}

009:100 The early vanguard of the Emigrants and the Helpers and those who followed them in virtue—Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens with streams running in them, to remain in them forever. That is the great success.

٥٨_٢٢   لَّا تَجِدُ قَوْمًۭا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلْءَاخِرِ يُوَآدُّونَ مَنْ حَآدَّ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَلَوْ كَانُوٓا۟ ءَابَآءَهُمْ أَوْ أَبْنَآءَهُمْ أَوْ إِخْوَٰنَهُمْ أَوْ عَشِيرَتَهُمْ ۚ أُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ كَتَبَ فِى قُلُوبِهِمُ ٱلْإِيمَٰنَ وَأَيَّدَهُم بِرُوحٍۢ مِّنْهُ ۖ وَيُدْخِلُهُمْ جَنَّٰتٍۢ تَجْرِى مِن تَحْتِهَا ٱلْأَنْهَٰرُ خَٰلِدِينَ فِيهَا ۚ رَضِىَ ٱللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا۟ عَنْهُ ۚ أُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ حِزْبُ ٱللَّهِ ۚ أَلَآ إِنَّ حِزْبَ ٱللَّهِ هُمُ ٱلْمُفْلِحُونَ

58:022 You will not find a people believing in Allah and the Last Day endearing those who oppose Allah and His Messenger even though they were their own parents, or children, or brothers, or kinsfolk. [For] such, He has written faith into their hearts and strengthened them with a spirit from Him. He will admit them into gardens with streams running in them, to remain in them [forever], Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. They are Allah’s confederates. Look! The confederates of Allah are indeed felicitous!

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُۥ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ٱلَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ ٱلزَّكَوٰةَ وَهُمْ رَٰكِعُونَ {٥٥}

٥_٥٦     وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ ٱللَّهِ هُمُ ٱلْغَٰلِبُونَ

005:055 Your guardian is only Allah, His Messenger, and the faithful who maintain the prayer and give the zakat while bowing down.

005:056 Whoever takes for his guardians Allah, His Messenger and the faithful [should know that] the confederates of Allah are indeed the victorious.

Razi Allah are the hizb ullah ie those who take Allah, the prophet and Imam Ali as their Wali.

The above verses indicate those addressed in above verses are followers of the prophet saww and Imam Ali As who gave zakat in the prayer while bowing down.

 

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

still can't find any Sunni explanation to this verses. They maybe try to wobble you to the Jews who betrayed at medina but that don't make actuall sense since the Jews were not part of the sahaba and so we are left with this. Was Muawiyah part of that group in medina? The verse speak of the ansar and then point at hypocrites,maybe it can relate to the events of saqifa

The verse 9:101,  addresses two kind of people: the persons (Arab) living around and the people of city ie Medina around the prophet saww

The companions who migrated from Makkah to Medina  lived their lives in Medina and among them are addressed as hypocrites in this verse. 

You may like to see the following link:

http://www.shiavault.com/books/when-power-and-piety-collide/chapters/12-chapter-9-arduous-truth

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Everyone worth his or her salt agrees that this verse includes Abu Bakr & Umar.  

Surah Al-Hujraat, Verse 2:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَرْفَعُوا أَصْوَاتَكُمْ فَوْقَ صَوْتِ النَّبِيِّ وَلَا تَجْهَرُوا لَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ كَجَهْرِ بَعْضِكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ أَن تَحْبَطَ أَعْمَالُكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لَا تَشْعُرُونَ

O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became null while you do not perceive.
(English - Shakir)

Everyone should be careful about this clause. Every deed become "habat", in some serious cases specially related to Prophet (pbuh) and perhaps the Ahlul Bayt (a.s) as well accoding to various sahih traditions.

Edited by Salsabeel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Surah Al-Hujraat, Verse 2:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَرْفَعُوا أَصْوَاتَكُمْ فَوْقَ صَوْتِ النَّبِيِّ وَلَا تَجْهَرُوا لَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ كَجَهْرِ بَعْضِكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ أَن تَحْبَطَ أَعْمَالُكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لَا تَشْعُرُونَ

O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became null while you do not perceive.
(English - Shakir)

Everyone should be careful about this clause. Every deed become "habat", in some serious cases specially related to Prophet (pbuh) and perhaps the Ahlul Bayt (a.s) as well accoding to various sahih traditions.

 

5 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Surah Al-Hujraat, Verse 2:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَرْفَعُوا أَصْوَاتَكُمْ فَوْقَ صَوْتِ النَّبِيِّ وَلَا تَجْهَرُوا لَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ كَجَهْرِ بَعْضِكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ أَن تَحْبَطَ أَعْمَالُكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لَا تَشْعُرُونَ

O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became null while you do not perceive.
(English - Shakir)

Everyone should be careful about this clause. Every deed become "habat", in some serious cases specially related to Prophet (pbuh) and perhaps the Ahlul Bayt (a.s) as well accoding to various sahih traditions.

Of course we should be careful about that clause for ourselves (so that we do not raise our voices above the messenger's (S)). But to think this verse is trying to teach us about who Abu Bakr and Umar really were in their hearts doesn't seem to be  the "intention" of such a verse.  Historically speaking, it was a way of teaching them to show "adab" and to teach them to be careful in front of the Messener (S).  To arrive at a conclusion other than that (to think the that quran is saying Abu Bakr and Umar's deeds have now become null and void (astaghfirullah) would be unjust on our part (an injustice to the Quran).   Why impose our thinking onto the Quran in such a manner?  If we do this then aren't we the ones who are raising our voices above the messenger of God's?  ;)

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 

Of course we should be careful about that clause for ourselves (so that we do not raise our voices above the messenger's (S)). But to think this verse is trying to teach us about who Abu Bakr and Umar really were in their hearts doesn't seem to be  the "intention" of such a verse.  Historically speaking, it was a way of teaching them to show "adab" and to teach them to be careful in front of the Messener (S).  To arrive at a conclusion other than that (to think the that quran is saying Abu Bakr and Umar's deeds have now become null and void (astaghfirullah) would be unjust on our part (an injustice to the Quran).   Why impose our thinking onto the Quran in such a manner?  If we do this then aren't we the ones who are raising our voices above the messenger of God's?  ;)

Obviously, as the verse starts with the phrase "ya ayyuhalladhina aamanu", I have not presented this verse to conclude that its revelation is a proof of "tahbata aamalokum" of Abu Bakr's or Umar's. 

Rather, I have presented this verse to only show you this important clause. May be you will see in history, when Prophet (pbuh) was on his death bed (bister e marg), asking for paper & pen so that he may left for ummah a writing & those who present there noised too much & raised voices before prophet, denied to give him the paper & pen.

And may be you will see in history, the daughter of Prophet asking for her right in the inheritence of his father & she was denied. 

It appears that even the very senior companions have not taken this warning (& clause) seriously which can rander their deeds null & void in a moment. 

I am not acting as a judge here. I am just a student of Quran & Islamic history.

Edited by Salsabeel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Obviously, as the verse starts with the phrase "ya ayyuhalladhina aamanu", I have not presented this verse to conclude that its revelation is a proof of "tahbata aamalokum" of Abu Bakr's or Umar's. 

Rather, I have presented this verse to only show you this important clause. May be you will see in history, when Prophet (pbuh) was on his death bed (bister e marg), asking for paper & pen so that he may left for ummah a writing & those who present there noised too much & raised voices before prophet, denied to give him the paper & pen.

And may be you will see in history, the daughter of Prophet asking for her right in the inheritence of his father & she was denied. 

It appears that even the very senior companions have not taken this warning (& clause) seriously which can rander their deeds null & void in a moment. 

I am not acting as a judge here. I am just a student of Quran & Islamic history.

brother, everyone stayed one more week the Prophet (s.a.w.s) after asking the paper and pen, he never asked again. Umar did ijtihad on the verse that say that the Prophet (s.a.w.s) is illiterate, how was he going to write? He was asking to write. The Prophet (s.a.w.s) could have rebuked Umar, why he didn't scolded Umar?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

Umar did ijtihad on the verse that say that the Prophet (s.a.w.s) is illiterate, how was he going to write?

My dear brother, can we do ijtihad on the command of Prophet? We just need to obey his commands. By the way the excuse you are giving was not given by Umar himself. Lets see the tradition:

"Sahih al-Bukhari Hadiths: 9.468 and 7.573:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khatttab, the Prophet said: "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said:

"The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Quran, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us."

The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing a statement for them.

 

The above tradition can also be found in Sahih Muslim, Chapter of "Kitabul- Wasiyyah" in section "Babut-Tarkil-Wasiyyah", 1980 Edition, Arabic version (Saudi Arabia), v3, p1259, Tradition (#1637/22)."

Look, did he said how can the prophet write, he is illiterate? He knew that Prophet can dictate & command someone to write.

Lets see the tradition of Muslim:

"Sa’id b. Jubair reported from Ibn Abbas that he said: Thursday, and what about Thursday? Then tears began to flow until I saw them on his cheeks as it they were the strings of pearls. He (the narrator) said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Bring me a shoulder blade and ink-pot (or tablet and inkpot), so that I write for you a document (by following which) you would never go astray. They said: Allah’s Messenger (may peace upon him) is in the state of unconsciousness."

[yahjur, literal translation: “talking nonsense”; obviously, the Prophet was not unconscious since he was speaking].— Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj, Sahih Muslim 013:4015

Here is the original Arabic text of above hadith given by Sahih Muslim:

عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، أَنَّهُ قَالَ: يَوْمُ الْخَمِيسِ وَمَا يَوْمُ الْخَمِيسِ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ جَعَلَ تَسِيلُ دُمُوعُهُ حَتَّى رَاَيْتُ عَلَى خَدَّيْهِ. قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ ‏”‏ ائْتُونِي بِالْكَتِفِ وَالدَّوَاةِ – اَوِ اللَّوْحِ وَالدَّوَاةِ – اَكْتُبْ لَكُمْ كِتَابًا لَنْ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدَهُ اَبَدًا ‏”‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالُوا اِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ يَهْجُرُ .

So my brother we are not commanded to think or do ijtihad on whether Prophet is commanding right or wrong. We are just commanded to obey him as he cannot command wrong or misguide us.

The important portion in this tradition is the noise of people before Prophet. They ignored the verse 49:2

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

My dear brother, can we do ijtihad on the command of Prophet? We just need to obey his commands. By the way the excuse you are giving was not given by Umar himself. Lets see the tradition:

"Sahih al-Bukhari Hadiths: 9.468 and 7.573:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khatttab, the Prophet said: "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said:

"The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Quran, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us."

The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing a statement for them.

 

The above tradition can also be found in Sahih Muslim, Chapter of "Kitabul- Wasiyyah" in section "Babut-Tarkil-Wasiyyah", 1980 Edition, Arabic version (Saudi Arabia), v3, p1259, Tradition (#1637/22)."

Look, did he said how can the prophet write, he is illiterate? He knew that Prophet can dictate & command someone to write.

Lets see the tradition of Muslim:

"Sa’id b. Jubair reported from Ibn Abbas that he said: Thursday, and what about Thursday? Then tears began to flow until I saw them on his cheeks as it they were the strings of pearls. He (the narrator) said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Bring me a shoulder blade and ink-pot (or tablet and inkpot), so that I write for you a document (by following which) you would never go astray. They said: Allah’s Messenger (may peace upon him) is in the state of unconsciousness."

[yahjur, literal translation: “talking nonsense”; obviously, the Prophet was not unconscious since he was speaking].— Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj, Sahih Muslim 013:4015

Here is the original Arabic text of above hadith given by Sahih Muslim:

عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، أَنَّهُ قَالَ: يَوْمُ الْخَمِيسِ وَمَا يَوْمُ الْخَمِيسِ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ جَعَلَ تَسِيلُ دُمُوعُهُ حَتَّى رَاَيْتُ عَلَى خَدَّيْهِ. قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ ‏”‏ ائْتُونِي بِالْكَتِفِ وَالدَّوَاةِ – اَوِ اللَّوْحِ وَالدَّوَاةِ – اَكْتُبْ لَكُمْ كِتَابًا لَنْ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدَهُ اَبَدًا ‏”‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالُوا اِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ يَهْجُرُ .

So my brother we are not commanded to think or do ijtihad on whether Prophet is commanding right or wrong. We are just commanded to obey him as he cannot command wrong or misguide us.

The important portion in this tradition is the noise of people before Prophet. They ignored the verse 49:2

 

Dear Brother,

If your mother was on her death bed (God forbid, and may god preserve her if she is still alive, ilahi ameen), and if she, out of her loving compassion, showed concern for your comfort in the hospital by saying, "my dear children, please take this pillow of mine so you can use it for yourselves", you might get a little angry (especially if you had a temperament of Umar) and you might complain to her (out of your love for her) that she should stop thinking about your comfort for ONCE and that she should get some rest and ease as much as she possibly can (after all you would tell her that the health you currently have is sufficient for you).  

That Hadith (of the Pen and paper) only shows how concerned Umar (ra) was for the Prophet's (S) health and comfort (during that difficultly he (S) was undergoing), that he didn't want him to undergo any more pain and discomfort.  Umar (ra) was all too familiar with the loving, selfless compassion that the Prophet (S) had for his Ummah.  The Prophet (S) would be in pain to see people in a state of misguidance.  Apparently he (S) would go out of his way to guide people and give them "naseeha" (advice).  He would spend hours with people and sacrifice his time.  Umar knew this about the Prophet (S) and thus reacted in the way he did because he knew the Prophet (S) is showing concern even on his death bed.  Umar couldn't bear to see the Prophet (S) in any more pain.   I would react the same way dear brother.    

Mashallah, so look at the love Umar (ra) had for Rasulullah (S).  

I hope the Prophet (S) and Umar (ra) forgive those of us who harbor a bad opinion about him (ra) / especially if it turns out to be completely false.  

 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Dear Brother,

If your mother was on her death bed (God forbid, and may god preserve her if she is still alive, ilahi ameen), and if she, out of her loving compassion, showed concern for your comfort in the hospital by saying, "my dear children, please take this pillow of mine so you can use it for yourselves", you might get a little angry (especially if you had a temperament of Umar) and you might complain to her (out of your love for her) that she should stop thinking about your comfort for ONCE and that she should get some rest and ease as much as she possibly can (after all you would tell her that the health you currently have is sufficient for you).  

That Hadith (of the Pen and paper) only shows how concerned Umar (ra) was for the Prophet's (S) health and comfort (during that difficultly he (S) was undergoing), that he didn't want him to undergo any more pain and discomfort.  Umar (ra) was all too familiar with the loving, selfless compassion that the Prophet (S) had for his Ummah.  The Prophet (S) would be in pain to see people in a state of misguidance.  Apparently he (S) would go out of his way to guide people and give them "naseeha" (advice).  He would spend hours with people and sacrifice his time.  Umar knew this about the Prophet (S) and thus reacted in the way he did because he knew the Prophet (S) is showing concern even on his death bed.  Umar couldn't bear to see the Prophet (S) in any more pain.   I would react the same way dear brother.    

Mashallah, so look at the love Umar (ra) had for Rasulullah (S).  

I hope the Prophet (S) and Umar (ra) forgive those of us who harbor a bad opinion about him (ra) / especially if it turns out to be completely false.  

 

 

 

Thank you :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Dear Brother,

If your mother was on her death bed (God forbid, and may god preserve her if she is still alive, ilahi ameen), and if she, out of her loving compassion, showed concern for your comfort in the hospital by saying, "my dear children, please take this pillow of mine so you can use it for yourselves", you might get a little angry (especially if you had a temperament of Umar) and you might complain to her (out of your love for her) that she should stop thinking about your comfort for ONCE and that she should get some rest and ease as much as she possibly can (after all you would tell her that the health you currently have is sufficient for you).  

:) Brother, considering your given analogy, I think that my mother would not command me to get out from her sight, if I showed my concerns for her comfort. In any case I should have to remember the following command of Almighty:

"And your Lord has commanded that you shall not serve (any) but Him, and goodness to your parents. If either or both of them reach old age with you, say not to them (so much as) "Ugh" (fala taqullahuma uffin) nor chide them, and speak to them a generous word." (17:23)


 You can see the reaction of Prophet in that tradition. Was he unable to sense the love of Umar or those present there? Was he unable to understand that they are quarreling before the Prophet out of love? This is what he said to them:

2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me


She would realize why I was saying that. And I will not use the words like "Yahjur" (talking non-sense) for her.

2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

فَقَالُوا اِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ يَهْجُرُ


I can understand your emotions brother. I can sense that you want peace & harmony between Muslims (specially the Shia & the Sunni's). I am not disrespecting anyone here, we are just discussing the historical events. I would have forgot this tradition if it was not followed by more severe mistakes of Umar, like the burning of the door of Syeda Fatima (s.a).  
 

Edited by Salsabeel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) Brother, considering your given analogy, I think that my mother would not command me to get out from her sight, if I showed my concerns for her comfort. In any case I should have to remember the following command of Almighty:

"And your Lord has commanded that you shall not serve (any) but Him, and goodness to your parents. If either or both of them reach old age with you, say not to them (so much as) "Ugh" (fala taqullahuma uffin) nor chide them, and speak to them a generous word." (17:23)


 You can see the reaction of Prophet in that tradition. Was he unable to sense the love of Umar or those present there? Was he unable to understand that they are quarreling before the Prophet out of love? This is what he said to them:


She would realize why I was saying that. And I will not use the words like "Yahjur" (talking non-sense) for her.


I can understand your emotions brother. I can sense that you want peace & harmony between Muslims (specially the Shia & the Sunni's). I am not disrespecting anyone here, we are just discussing the historical events. I would have forgot this tradition if it was not followed by more severe mistakes of Umar, like the burning of the door of Syeda Fatima (s.a).  
 

Omar never attacked Lady Fatima (r.a) that's a made up story by extreme twelver xiites. Do you think the Lion of Allah couldn't beat Umar and Abu Bakr? Who was there with Fatima (r.a)?! Wasn't it Sayyidina Ali ibn Abu Talib (r.a)? Are you calling him weak can't defend his own wife?! If Umar went there Ali (r.a) would have beaten them there. You think no one would take up arms if this happened?! You try blaming the first to caliphates and you end up insulting Ali (r.a) and his friends.

Edited by SunniBrother

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

You try blaming the first to caliphates and you end up insulting Ali (r.a) and his friends.

:) So you have started to display the typical sunni style. Don't put false allegations on me, go & read your history books, If they are made up stories, Sunni's have invented these stories as these so called "made up story" is present in your own history books and their clues/hints are also present in your Sahih books.

 

4 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

Omar never attacked Lady Fatima (r.a) that's a made up story by extreme twelver xiites.

 Several Sunni sources such as History of Tabari, History of Ibn Athir, History of Abul Fada, al-Imamah wal-Siyasah by Ibn Qutaybah Dinori and al-Faruq by Shibli Nomani do record this incident.

"When Umar came to the door of the House of Fatima, He said: By Allah, I shall burn down the house over you unless you come out and give the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr. At this point, Fatima apprached Umar and said, O Umar, would you dare? Do you wish to set my house on fire? Umar said: Yes, Unless you give Bayya to Abu Bakr, and enter into that which the majority of the Ummah have agreed to."

History of Tabari, Volume 1, Page 1118-1120
History of Ibn Athir, Volume 2, Page 325
Tareekh Abul Fida, Page 235


Umar asked for wood, and told those people inside the house: "I swear by Allah who has my soul in his hand, that if you do not come out, I will burn the house.”Someone told Umar that Fatimah was inside the house. Umar said: "So what! It doesn’t matter to me who is in the house.” (Sunni reference: al-Imamah wa al-Siyasah by Ibn Qutaybah, v1, pp 3,19-20)

"Abu Bakr asked ‘Ali to support him, but ‘Ali refused, then Umar went toward the ‘Ali’s house with a burning torch. At the door he met Fatimah who said to him: "Do you intend to burn the door of my house?”Umar said: "Yes, because this act will strengthen the faith brought to us by your father." (Sunni reference: al-Ansab Ashraf, by al-Baladhuri, v1, pp 582,586)

al-Hafiz Diya al-Din Muhammad ibn al-Wahid al-Maqdisi (d. 643 H) in his authority work al-Ahadith al-Mukhtarat, Volume 1 page 88 stated:

عنهن فأما الثلاث اللاتي وددت أني لم أفعلهن فوددت أني لم أكن كشفت بيت فاطمة أو تركته وأن أعلق على الحرب وددت أني يوم سقيفة بني ساعدة كنت قدفت الأمر في عنق أحد الرجلين أبو عبيدة أو عمر فكان أمير المؤمنين وكنت وزيرا ووددت أني حيث كنت وجهت خالد بن الوليد إلى أهل الردة

Abubakr said: ‘I wish I never violated or abandoned the house of Fatima even if she had waged a war against me. I wish that on the day of Saqifah I had placed the affair (i.e. caliphate) on the neck of either Abu Ubaydah or Umar so that such would be the Commander of the believers while I remained his vizier’.
The margin writer of al-Ahadith al-Mukhtarat Abdulmalik bin Abdullah bin Duhaish has declared the tradition as ‘Hasan’.

Ibn Tamiyah also admitted that Abu Bakr broke into Lady Fatima’s house:

وغاية ما يقال إنه كبس البيت لينظر هل فيه شيء من مال الله الذي يقسمه وأن يعطيه لمستحق

“He broke into the house to see if there was some thing of Allah’s money to distribute it or give it to those who deserved it”
Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 8 page 291

 

Edited by Salsabeel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I hope the Prophet (S) and Umar (ra) forgive those of us who harbor a bad opinion about him (ra) / especially if it turns out to be completely false.  

 

 

 

This is quite odd to see a "shia" have a positive opinion about abu bakr and umar given the many many many ahadith in the shia corpus of hadith that curse abu bakr and umar declare them (and their two daughters) apostates not only that by declaring anyone who loves them also to be apostates. You cannot love ahlul bayt (as) and love their enemies. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) So you have started to display the typical sunni style. Don't put false allegations on me, go & read your history books, If they are made up stories, Sunni's have invented these stories as these so called "made up story" is present in your own history books and their clues/hints are also present in your Sahih books.

 

 Several Sunni sources such as History of Tabari, History of Ibn Athir, History of Abul Fada, al-Imamah wal-Siyasah by Ibn Qutaybah Dinori and al-Faruq by Shibli Nomani do record this incident.

"When Umar came to the door of the House of Fatima, He said: By Allah, I shall burn down the house over you unless you come out and give the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr. At this point, Fatima apprached Umar and said, O Umar, would you dare? Do you wish to set my house on fire? Umar said: Yes, Unless you give Bayya to Abu Bakr, and enter into that which the majority of the Ummah have agreed to."

History of Tabari, Volume 1, Page 1118-1120
History of Ibn Athir, Volume 2, Page 325
Tareekh Abul Fida, Page 235


Umar asked for wood, and told those people inside the house: "I swear by Allah who has my soul in his hand, that if you do not come out, I will burn the house.”Someone told Umar that Fatimah was inside the house. Umar said: "So what! It doesn’t matter to me who is in the house.” (Sunni reference: al-Imamah wa al-Siyasah by Ibn Qutaybah, v1, pp 3,19-20)

"Abu Bakr asked ‘Ali to support him, but ‘Ali refused, then Umar went toward the ‘Ali’s house with a burning torch. At the door he met Fatimah who said to him: "Do you intend to burn the door of my house?”Umar said: "Yes, because this act will strengthen the faith brought to us by your father." (Sunni reference: al-Ansab Ashraf, by al-Baladhuri, v1, pp 582,586)

al-Hafiz Diya al-Din Muhammad ibn al-Wahid al-Maqdisi (d. 643 H) in his authority work al-Ahadith al-Mukhtarat, Volume 1 page 88 stated:

عنهن فأما الثلاث اللاتي وددت أني لم أفعلهن فوددت أني لم أكن كشفت بيت فاطمة أو تركته وأن أعلق على الحرب وددت أني يوم سقيفة بني ساعدة كنت قدفت الأمر في عنق أحد الرجلين أبو عبيدة أو عمر فكان أمير المؤمنين وكنت وزيرا ووددت أني حيث كنت وجهت خالد بن الوليد إلى أهل الردة

Abubakr said: ‘I wish I never violated or abandoned the house of Fatima even if she had waged a war against me. I wish that on the day of Saqifah I had placed the affair (i.e. caliphate) on the neck of either Abu Ubaydah or Umar so that such would be the Commander of the believers while I remained his vizier’.
The margin writer of al-Ahadith al-Mukhtarat Abdulmalik bin Abdullah bin Duhaish has declared the tradition as ‘Hasan’.

Ibn Tamiyah also admitted that Abu Bakr broke into Lady Fatima’s house:

وغاية ما يقال إنه كبس البيت لينظر هل فيه شيء من مال الله الذي يقسمه وأن يعطيه لمستحق

“He broke into the house to see if there was some thing of Allah’s money to distribute it or give it to those who deserved it”
Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 8 page 291

 

Astaqfirullah... Thanks for showing. But not my place to call them names, I'll leave to Allah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

Maybe whal Jammah comes from this phrase - enter into that which the majority of the Ummah have agreed to."

Although Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) had many other strengths their spiritual maqam was not at the level of Imam Ali (as) (in fact I would like to say, it was nowhere close to that of Imam Ali (as)).  This disparity is clearly visible in instances of tensions between them (ra) and Ali (as), or between them and Fatimah (as)).  One thing is very clear, Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) did what they thought was in the best interest of the Ummah (this is if we try to read history impartially and with as little bias as possible).  One can (e.g. a Shia can) reason "after the fact" (and has the right to do so,) that Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra), at the end of the day, didn't act in the best interest of the Ummah even if their intentions at the moment were sincere. A Shiite will say that not following the dictates of Fatimah (as) word for word (as if she were in place of the Prophet (S)) is not acting in the best interest of the Ummah.  I think there is nothing wrong with a Shia to argue this way and that this is a respectable position (even though I don't fully agree with it).  But to accuse Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) that they had evil intentions or motives is totally unacceptable. Any reason one can or will use to argue such a case would be unjustifiable for there is absolutely no way of proving such a thing.

 

Wallahu Alam.              

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

But to accuse Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) that they had evil intentions or motives is totally unacceptable.

Known as the Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyah1

ومن خطبة له (عليه السلام) المعروفة بالشِّقْشِقِيَّة

وتشتمل على الشكوى من أمر الخلافة ثم ترجيح صبره عنها ثم مبايعة الناس له

Beware! By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)2 dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his death).

أَمَا وَالله لَقَدْ تَقَمَّصَها ابْنُ اَبى قُحافَةَ ، وَإِنَّهُ لَيَعْلَمُ أَنَّ مَحَلِّيَ مِنهَا مَحَلُّ القُطْبِ مِنَ الرَّحَا، يَنْحَدِرُ عَنِّي السَّيْلُ، وَلا يَرْقَى إِلَيَّ الطَّيْرُ، فَسَدَلْتُ دُونَهَا ثَوْباً، وَطَوَيْتُ عَنْهَا كَشْحاً، وَطَفِقْتُ أَرْتَئِي بَيْنَ أَنْ أَصُولَ بِيَد جَذَّاءَ، أَوْ أَصْبِرَ عَلَى طَخْيَة عَمْيَاءَ، يَهْرَمُ فيهَا الكَبيرُ، وَيَشِيبُ فِيهَا الصَّغِيرُ، وَيَكْدَحُ فِيهَا مُؤْمِنٌ حَتَّى يَلْقَى رَبَّهُ.

Proposes Patience in Absence of Supporters

ترجيح الصبرعلى فقد الاعوان

I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was [Edited Out]ing in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself.

(Then he quoted al-A`sha’s verse):

My days are now passed on the camel’s back (in difficulty) while there were days (of ease) when I enjoyed the company of Jabir’s brother Hayyan.3

فَرَأَيْتُ أَنَّ الصَّبْرَ عَلَى هَاتَا أَحْجَى، فَصَبَرتُ وَفي الْعَيْنِ قَذىً، وَفي الحَلْقِ شَجاً، أرى تُرَاثي نَهْباً، حَتَّى مَضَى الاْوَّلُ لِسَبِيلِهِ، فَأَدْلَى بِهَا إِلَى ابْنِ الْخَطّابِ بَعْدَهُ. ( ثم تمثل بقول الاعشى):

شَتّانَ ما يَومي عَاى كُوْرِها * و يَوْمُ حَيَّانَ أخي جابِرِ

It is strange that during his lifetime he wished to be released from the caliphate but he confirmed it for the other one after his death. No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves. This one put the Caliphate in a tough enclosure where the utterance was haughty and the touch was rough. Mistakes were in plenty and so also the excuses therefore. One in contact with it was like the rider of an unruly camel. If he pulled up its rein the very nostril would be slit, but if he let it loose he would be thrown. Consequently, by Allah people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation.

فَيَا عَجَباً!! بَيْنَا هُوَ يَسْتَقِيلُها في حَيَاتِهِ إِذْ عَقَدَهَا لاخَرَ بَعْدَ وَفَاتِهِ ـ لَشَدَّ مَا تَشَطَّرَا ضَرْعَيْهَا ! ـ فَصَيَّرَهَا في حَوْزَة خَشْنَاءَ، يَغْلُظُ كَلْمُهَا، وَيَخْشُنُ مَسُّهَا، وَيَكْثُرُ العِثَارُ فِيهَا وَالاْعْتَذَارُ مِنْهَا، فَصَاحِبُهَا كَرَاكِبِ الصَّعْبَةِ، إِنْ أَشْنَقَ لَهَا خَرَمَ، وَإِنْ أَسْلَسَ لَهَا تَقَحَّمَ، فَمُنِيَ النَّاسُ ـ لَعَمْرُ اللهِ ـ بِخَبْط وَشِمَاس، وَتَلَوُّن وَاعْتِرَاض.

Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group4 and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! What had I to do with this “consultation”? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high.

One of them turned against me because of his hatred and the other got inclined the other way due to his in-law relationship and this thing and that thing, till the third man of these people stood up with heaving breasts between his dung and fodder. With him his children of his grand-father, (Umayyah) also stood up swallowing up Allah’s wealth5 like a camel devouring the foliage of spring, till his rope broke down, his actions finished him and his gluttony brought him down prostrate.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-Allah-son-abu-quhafah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a student of Quran & Islamic history, I feel it obligatory to keep in view these verses of Quran which are the commands of Allah:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 42:

وَلَا تَلْبِسُوا الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُوا الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).

(English - Shakir)

The consequnce of doing this is very severe:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 159:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَ مَا أَنزَلْنَا مِنَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالْهُدَىٰ مِن بَعْدِ مَا بَيَّنَّاهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِي الْكِتَابِ أُولَٰئِكَ يَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّاعِنُونَ

Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 160:

إِلَّا الَّذِينَ تَابُوا وَأَصْلَحُوا وَبَيَّنُوا فَأُولَٰئِكَ أَتُوبُ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنَا التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ

Except those who repent and amend and make manifest (the truth), these it is to whom I turn (mercifully); and I am the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

(English - Shakir)

Unfortunately, Muslims differ in the matter related to the Vilayat of Imam Ali (a.s).

Edited by Salsabeel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ {1} [Shakir 1:1] In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. *****   وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا رَحْمَةً لِلْعَالَمِينَ {107} [Shakir 21:107] And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.
    • Salam, After a long time I'm back to shiachat. Lots of change and I'm still not sure how things go. Went to chat to say hi, but it's not working. Is there something special with the chat or is it genuinely broken?
    • Salam, l read through your reference. Al-Majlisi is described as an "expert" in philosophy but why he uses pagan Greek ideas of harmony to organize his writings is not explained. Three English translators --Ali once, Skakir twice and Picktall thrice-- add this word into the reading. A couple of these verses is using "harmony" for reconciliation of the waw fa qaf  tri-literal root. The remainder are gross insertions of the word. Therefore, as far as l can find, "harmony" is not in Quran. Quran is revealed as "self-explained" so why use a pagan philosophy for delineation of subjects? Now again to the "love" part. Even though al-Majlisi uses it the fundamental problem of meaning still remains. We can define "prefer" as something more valued. We can define "endear" as an appreciation or even 'affection'. But we cannot define "love". Like the word genius, everyone has something to say about the word "love", but nobody can define it. Not sufficiently, at least. Allah-s.w.t. is not a "love god".
    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K31Ajbk8UI   video sound is persian(Farsi) with Eng sub  
×