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56 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Sunnis believe Qadr is a article of faith. Qadr means predestination. Twelvers believe in Adl in the place of Qadr. Why is that?

Do not you believe in Adal. 

We too believe in Qadr. But this is a complicated issue. But really speaking I do not know what is shia belief regarding Qadr. 

Yes beliving the Adal is basic pillars of Shia islam. 

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1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

Sunnis believe Qadr is a article of faith. Qadr means predestination.

Qadr has many meanings, one of them is measure:

Surah Al-Qamar, Verse 49:

إِنَّا كُلَّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقْنَاهُ بِقَدَرٍ

Surely We have created everything according to a measure.

(English - Shakir)

Perhaps this question will help us to understand the ideology of "qadr":

Does Allah has predestined the disobedience of Iblis? If yes, whom you held responsible for his disobedience, Iblis or Allah?

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2 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

Why shias don't have qadr as article of faith? What is the reasoning for this and how the shia view differ from the qadaris?

Salamun alaykum dear brother,

All Muslims believe in the qadar of God.  But if you are asking about why Shias don't have it "explicitly" as an article of faith, it is because they chose to place emphasis on the fact that we are responsible for our actions.  The reason for the emphasis all has to do with political-historical climate of the time.

Many Shias are dogmatically taught to say "we believe in something inbetween predestination and free will", but most of them don't have a clue what that actually means.  What they think it means amounts to something trivial.  They say, "God destined our death, who our parents are etc.., but not our evil deeds or our good deeds".  Obviously all Muslims believe this.  But where it gets problematic is when Shia rationalists misunderstand freewill and think that it is rooted in some kind of arbitrary choice (this implies mankinds autonomy and freedom FROM God despite the philosophical explanations that are used by them argue for the contingency of Man's freewill on God).

 

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Here is an article about Sunni view of Qadr:

"Qadar means that Allaah has decreed everything that happens in the universe according to His prior knowledge and the dictates of His wisdom. 

Belief in al-Qadar includes four things: 

1 – The belief that Allaah knows all things, in general and in detail, from eternity to eternity, whether that has to do with His actions or the actions of His slaves. 

2 – The belief that Allaah has written that in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz (the Book of Decrees). 

Concerning these two matters Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“Know you not that Allaah knows all that is in the heaven and on the earth? Verily, it is (all) in the Book (Al‑Lawh Al‑Mahfooz). Verily, that is easy for Allaah”

[al-Hajj 22:70] 

In Saheeh Muslim (2653) it is narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Allaah wrote down the decrees of creation fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.”  

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The first thing that Allaah created was the Pen, and He said to it, ‘Write!’ It said, ‘O Lord, what should I write?’ He said: ‘Write down the decrees of all things until the Hour begins.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 4700; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood. 

3 – The belief that whatever happens only happens by the will of Allaah – whether that has to do with His actions or the actions of created beings. 

Allaah says concerning His actions (interpretation of the meaning): 

“And your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and chooses”

[al-Qasas 28:68] 

“and Allaah does what He wills”

[Ibraaheem 14:27] 

“He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He wills”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:6] 

And He says concerning the actions of created beings (interpretation of the meaning): 

“Had Allaah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you”

[al-Nisa’ 4:90] 

“If your Lord had so willed, they would not have done it”

[al-An’aam 6:112] 

All events, actions and happenings occur only by the will of Allaah. Whatever Allaah wills happens, and whatever He does not will does not happen.  

4 – The belief that all things that happen are created by Allaah in their essence, their attributes and their movements. 

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“Allaah is the Creator of all things, and He is the Wakeel (Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian) over all things”

[al-Zumar 39:62] 

“He has created everything, and has measured it exactly according to its due measurements”

[al-Furqaan 25:2] 

And Allaah tells us that the Prophet of Allaah Ibraaheem (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to his people: 

“While Allaah has created you and what you make”

[al-Saaffaat 38:96 – interpretation of the meaning] 

If a person believes in all these things then he believes correctly in the divine will and decree (al-qadar). 

Belief in al-qadar as we have described it above does not contradict the idea that a person has free will with regard to actions in which he has free choice. He can choose whether to or not to do things that he is able to do of acts of worship or sinful actions. Sharee’ah and real life both indicate that people have this will. 

With regard to sharee’ah, Allaah says concerning man's will (interpretation of the meaning): 

“That is (without doubt) the True Day. So, whosoever wills, let him seek a place with (or a way to) His Lord (by obeying Him in this worldly life)!”

[al-Naba’ 78:39] 

“so go to your tilth, when or how you will”

[al-Baqarah 2:223] 

And He says concerning man’s ability (interpretation of the meaning): 

“So keep your duty to Allaah and fear Him as much as you can”

[al-Taghaabun 64:16] 

“Allaah burdens not a person beyond his scope. He gets reward for that (good) which he has earned, and he is punished for that (evil) which he has earned”

[al-Baqarah 2:286]

 These verses confirm that man has a will and the ability to do what he wants and not to do what he does not want.  

With regard to real life, everyone knows that he has a will and the ability to do what he wants and not to do what he does not want. And he can distinguish between the things that happen when he wants them to, such as walking, and those that happen without him wanting them to, such as shivering. But the will and ability of man are subject to the will and decree of Allaah, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“To whomsoever among you who wills to walk straight.

 And you cannot will unless (it be) that Allaah willsthe Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)”

[al-Takweer 81:28-29] 

But the entire universe is the dominion of Allaah, and nothing can happen in His dominion without His knowledge and will. 

And Allaah knows best. 

See Risaalat Sharh Usool al-Eemaan by Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen."

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17 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

But where it gets problematic is when Shia rationalists misunderstand freewill and think that it is rooted in some kind of arbitrary choice (this implies mankinds autonomy and freedom FROM God despite the philosophical explanations that are used by them argue for the contingency of Man's freewill on God).

Brother, what about the misunderstanding of those who blame Allah (s.w.t) for their wrong doings, those who believe in the philosophy of "jabr".

Edited by Salsabeel

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12 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Brother, what about the misunderstanding of those who blame Allah (s.w.t) for their wrong doings, those who believe in the philosophy of "jabr".

Actually Allah's law has both aspects Qadar and Adal. Both not contradicting each other. 

But it is our misunderstanding that creates confusion. 

 

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24 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Actually Allah's law has both aspects Qadar and Adal. Both not contradicting each other. 

But it is our misunderstanding that creates confusion. 

 

I am not negating the Qadha & Qadr. I am just saying that this subject leads us to discuss whether we are free or are under jabr. I know many Sunni who believe in the philosophy of Jabr.

While as per Shia doctrine, neither we are 100% free nor 100% majboor. We takes the middle course.

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Some one asked Imam Ali (a.s) to explain how much free are we, Imam asked that person to lift his one leg, so the man lifted his one leg. Then Imam asked him to lift his second leg too. 

The man then realized he cannot do it & understood the point.

We are not 100% free. 

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19 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Some one asked Imam Ali (a.s) to explain how much free are we, Imam asked that person to lift his one leg, so the man lifted his one leg. Then Imam asked him to lift his second leg too. 

The man then realized he cannot do it & understood the point.

We are not 100% free. 

That is question of incapacitating. That is not Qadar. 

But regarding action one is free. 

 

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14 minutes ago, islam25 said:

That is question of incapacitating. That is not Qadar. 

But regarding action one is free. 

 

So what did you mean by 100% free? 

Is there any human who came in this world on his own will?

 

Edited by Salsabeel

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21 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

So what did you mean by 100% free? 

Is there any human who came in this world on his own will?

 

Mr.why do not you understand. 

We are free and answerable to our action. Not answerable to things that is not in our control. 

 

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9 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Mr.why do not you understand. 

We are free and answerable to our action. Not answerable to things that is not in our control. 

 

:) Mr. Why do not you understand that I have already pointed out the philosophy of jabr where people say that since Allah has predestined our action (whether good or bad) so we have no freewill. They blame Allah (na'uzobillah) for all their wrong doings.

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

:) Mr. Why do not you understand that I have already pointed out the philosophy of jabr where people say that since Allah has predestined our action (whether good or bad) so we have no freewill. They blame Allah (na'uzobillah) for all their wrong doings.

What sunnis belive is different question and will be discussed latter. 

But my point is we are 100 % free in our actions. Not middle way between free and majobor as you mentioned earlier. 

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27 minutes ago, islam25 said:

But my point is we are 100 % free in our actions. Not middle way between free and majobor as you mentioned earlier. 

Yes, in our action, we are free and owns full responsibility of our deeds.

Surah Al-Insan, Verse 3:

إِنَّا هَدَيْنَاهُ السَّبِيلَ إِمَّا شَاكِرًا وَإِمَّا كَفُورًا

Surely We have shown him the way: he may be thankful or unthankful.

(English - Shakir)

 

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5 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Brother, what about the misunderstanding of those who blame Allah (s.w.t) for their wrong doings, those who believe in the philosophy of "jabr".

So this idea (of blaming god for their sins) is condemned by "traditional Sunnis".  They typically refer to verses in Quran comparing Adam's response to God with Satans response to God.  The former said "I have wronged myself", and the latter said "you made me be this way...".  So traditional Sunnis say that blaming god for one's sins is the following the sunnah of Satan while blaming oneself for one's own sins is following the Sunnah of Adam (as).  Also, in the story of Moses and Khidr, if the grammar and words of the sentences are examined closely, one will see that every negativity is, by default, something to be attributed to other than God while every positive thing is to be attributed to God.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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22 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

So this idea (of blaming god for their sins) is condemned by "traditional Sunnis".  They typically refer to verses in Quran comparing Adam's response to God with Satans response to God.  The former said "I have wronged myself", and the latter said "you made me be this way...".  So traditional Sunnis say that blaming god for one's sins is the following the sunnah of Satan while blaming oneself for one's own sins is following the Sunnah of Adam (as).  Also, in the story of Moses and Khidr, if the grammar and words of the sentences are examined closely, one will see that every negativity is, by default, something to be attributed to other than God while every positive thing is to be attributed to God.  

What do you mean by traditional Sunnis condemn blaming Allah for ones sins.

Do non traditional Sunnis blame Allah. 

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Some deobandis and salafis blame Allah. For example, some salafis believe Allah is a liar, and the best of liars, who is sitting on the arsh with hands, feets and a human form "worthy of his majesty" but unlike the creatures.

Traditional Sunnis view this as Mujassima beliefs. Traditional Sunni condemn this views because they are zindiq aqeedah.

Edited by SunniBrother

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4 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

I found support that delving into qadr is forbidden from sunni hadiths. But I think the matuzailla was delving at the time of the mihna which is the reason Imam Ibn Hanbal didn't wanted talk abou qadr. But probably after his anthropomorphic students tough that would be good good affirming qadr without negating it and now 80% of Muslims are fatalists. Maybe it was used as well as a political tool from Sunni Caliphates. And Qadr is a topic which often makes Sunnis confused, overall the creed of qadr is correct. But it is forbidden delving in it, affirming or negating. After al Ashari this thing got really ingrained in Muslim believe. You may check that a matuzilla criticized Al Ashari for his stance in Qadr saying "By doing this you made the will of God unknown to all".

According to Sunnis, blaming Allah is shirk.

Do you mean by believing in Qadar in sunni doctrine. The he'll and heaven is already predestined by Allah. 

 

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Just now, islam25 said:

Do you mean by believing in Qadar in sunni doctrine. The he'll and heaven is already predestined by Allah. 

 

Is not wrong to believe in Qadr like Sunnis. But using it as excuse is forbidden. Like saying - Qadr made me do bad things.

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