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Bible changes-Mandela Effect?

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6 hours ago, baqar said:

No, you have absolutely no idea what a truly just system is all about because you blindly follow the will of elected people, most of whom are mean, selfish, and seekers of personal gain. And nothing more. 

 

Who are you to say most of those who represent me are bad people? Our politicians are normal people, no better or worse than Swedes in general. 

The views of our elected people differ quite a lot. However they all agree that amputating hands and lashing are not fair punishments for theft and adultery. Adultery is not a crime, by the way, but a personal matter. Does this make them (and me) greedy,  selfish and mean? I think you are being very arrogant. (Arrogance is also not punishable im Sweden)

You are free to wish for a nation based on Imam Alis principles, but is it not only a dream? Has any such nation (kaliphate?) ever existed?

 

The fundamental difference between our views is that you think we all today and forever must adapt to the law prescribed in the Quran. I think the law must adapt to the different conditions humanity lives in. 

Edited by andres

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40 minutes ago, andres said:

Who are you to say most of those who represent me are bad people? Our politicians are normal people, no better or worse than Swedes in general. 

I wasn't talking about Swedish politicians at all. 

I was talking about all of them, Indians included.

They are all the same.

41 minutes ago, andres said:

The fundamental difference between our views is that you think we all today and forever must adapt to the law prescribed in the Quran. I think the law must adapt to the different conditions humanity lives in. 

The trouble with you Andres is that your obsessions will never leave you in peace.  

Have peace

44 minutes ago, andres said:

You are free to wish for a nation based on Imam Alis principles

As George Jordach, a Christian historian, said about Imam Ali:

"The entire wealth of the world and all its treasures could not equal the lace of his shoe." 

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5 minutes ago, baqar said:

I wasn't talking about Swedish politicians at all. 

I was talking about all of them, Indians included.

They are all the same.

Now you are seemingly contradicting yourself. You are talking about all politicians on our planet. I can only vote for the Swedish ones. If they are an exception, you should have said so. But you did not, so how can you talk yourself out of that you were including Swedish politicians?

Dont forget: Swedish politicians differ on many subjects, and I can only vote for one of our eight parties. If you are not aware of their ideas I think it would be apropiate if you withdraw your statement that I am a blind follower of whatever they say. 

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On 9/3/2017 at 0:26 PM, andres said:

The Bible has been an object for critical research for about 2 centuries now. Mainstream specialist view is that what we have got today is not 100% original. But close.

Salam Andres,
Aye. Personally, I believe God has preserved His Written Word, like He promised. While there are definitely scribal human errors, God protected and protects the meaning and important content of His Word. 

Quote

The Quran has not yet been object to such critical research.

The Qur'an actually has been subject to critical research, especially from Atheist/Agnostic scholars, as well as from Christian scholars. However, most Christian scholars apply the same methods of critical research to the Bible as they do to the Qur'an. That's only fair, after all.

Interestingly, Muslims who condemn the Bible use the same methods Atheists who condemn the Bible do, though they rarely apply the same critical standard to the Qur'an. Those who do, if they are honest, would not claim the Qur'an is "perfect" same as Christian scholars who do cannot claim the Bible is "perfect" either. Objectivity is a must in critical research.

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Most(?) Muslims still claim it is perfect thou.

Many Christians claim the Bible to be "perfect", though most who are not scholars just repeat what they have been taught. It is the same with Muslims who claim the Qur'an to be "perfect"...

Basically, there is no such thing as a perfect holy book in this day and age. It's basically faith, not scientific proof, that motivates people to claim theirs is "perfect."

Personally, I believe God intentionally revealed His Written Word centuries before the Enlightenment, in order to cultivate faith. However, it is vital to put faith in the right source. Personally, I believe the Bible, while not perfect, is truly from God, whereas I don't believe the same about the Qur'an, since Muhammad and the Qur'an contradict the Bible.

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This desire to live in a 7th century world, makes it difficult to catch up with modern nations. 

That is an interesting point that could offend many Muslims if they don't learn to analyze factors objectively. Definitely, we can study how the "Christian" world transformed when people began to seriously research - hence the advanced technology, medical advancements, and modern conveniences we enjoy today.

If the Christian world had retained its strict don't question policy (mainly dominated by the Catholic Church), it's possible that we would not be enjoying what we are now. Thank God, the Catholic Church, as well as other Christian groups, no longer persecute those who critique the Bible, but rather in general embrace the scientific method.

Peace and God bless you

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38 minutes ago, baqar said:

As George Jordach, a Christian historian, said about Imam Ali:

"The entire wealth of the world and all its treasures could not equal the lace of his shoe." 

Dont know the guy. He may have high regards for Imam Ali. I have no impression of Ali myself, so I cannot comment on that. Now the question was if Alis idea of how society should be arranged, still makes sense today. I think not, and I am certain I have almost all historians on my side.

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Hi Christianlady

I kind of agree with you when you say the Bible is the true word of God, with the exception of scribal errors. However there are also internal historical contradictions. This is quite normal if we accept that the Gospels were written by normal human beings, doing their best to testify what they had heard from witnesses whom they trusted. The story is not perfect, today we may question details without being persecuted. Blasphemy laws have softened or disapeared. This is not quite so in Islamic nations. 

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34 minutes ago, andres said:

Dont know the guy. He may have high regards for Imam Ali. I have no impression of Ali myself, so I cannot comment on that. Now the question was if Alis idea of how society should be arranged, still makes sense today. I think not, and I am certain I have almost all historians on my side.

I looked up George Jordach and would be very surprised if he was not rewarded in some way by Muslims for his praise of a Muslim figure. Personally, I take sweet talk with a grain of salt lol when I suspect somebody has been rewarded in some way for praising somebody.

Even the wording of his praise shows a very high desire to earn something in return:

"The entire wealth of the world and all its treasures could not equal the lace of his shoe."

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady

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3 minutes ago, andres said:

Hi Christianlady

I kind of agree with you when you say the Bible is the true word of God, with the exception of scribal errors. However there are also internal historical contradictions. This is quite normal if we accept that the Gospels were written by normal human beings, doing their best to testify what they had heard from witnesses whom they trusted. The story is not perfect,

Salam Andres,

Understood, though I do believe that the original writings did not have historical contradictions. However, the originals of both what is compiled in the Bible and what is compiled in the Qur'an are long gone, due to decay, being burned, and/or other factors.

Quote

today we may question details without being persecuted. Blasphemy laws have softened or disapeared. 

Thank God!!! :) Personally, I believe blasphemy laws breed hypocrisy.

Quote

This is not quite so in Islamic nations. 

Nope, and you can tell how some Muslims have this intense fear of critical research of the Quran, the book they've been taught to believe.  That, I assume, stems from the blasphemy laws that have ruled and oppressed the Muslim world for centuries.

Peace and God bless you

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6 hours ago, andres said:

Don't know the guy. 

Well, then how about this: 

A. British scholar Barnaby Rogerson says 

(1) "Ali was a cornucopia of the virtues."

Source: Barnaby Rogerson, The Heirs of Muhammad, Woodstock, NY: The Overlook Press, 2007, p. 286 

(2) "Ali had always attracted his share of enemies because of his forthright regard for the truth. There was something in his 
saintly nature that either kindled passionate support or an almost equal fear."

Source: Barnaby Rogerson, The Heirs of Muhammad, Woodstock, NY: The Overlook Press, 2007, p. 288

(3) "Ali, the linchpin of the whole tale of the heirs of the Prophet, is a figure crafted from the purest principles of honour, truth,
bravery and faith. Like all such men, he was not fated to prosper in our venal world, ridden with secret ambitions, private fears and covert jealousies."

Source: Barnaby Rogerson, The Heirs of Muhammad, Woodstock, NY: The Overlook Press, 2007, p. 323

(4) "With every passing day his personal virtues became ever more blindingly obvious: his complete honesty, his unbending
devotion to the true practice of Islam, his innate fairness, compassion and generosity." 

  Source: Barnaby Rogerson, The Heirs of Muhammad, Woodstock, NY: The Overlook Press, 2007, p. 320

            ****************************************

B. Jewish author Lesley Hazleton says 

(1) "Ali would rarely be anything but noble."

Source: Lesley Hazleton, After the Prophet, New York: Anchor Books, 2010, (hereinafter Hazleton: After), p. 76

(2) "In the blinding light of hindsight, Ali should surely have been more assertive and insisted on his right to rule. But
then he would not have been the man he was, the man famed for his nobility, his grace and integrity – a man too honorable, it seemed, for the rough-and-tumble of politics.

Source: Lesley Hazleton, After the Prophet, New York: Anchor Books, 2010, (hereinafter Hazleton: After), p. 84 

(3) "As the early Islamic historians told the story of his brief rule, it would achieve the epic dimensions of classical tragedy. The
story they told was that of a noble leader brought low by his own nobility. Of a man of integrity undone by his reluctance
to compromise his principles. Of a ruler betrayed as much by the inconstancy of his supporters as by the malice of his
enemies."

Source: Lesley Hazleton, After the Prophet, New York: Anchor Books, 2010, (hereinafter Hazleton: After), p. 125 

                                                                             ****************************************

C. German scholar Wilferd Madelung talks about

"Ali refusing to engage in the new game of political treachery, unscrupulous manoeuvring and clever opportunism that was then taking root in the government of Islam, deprived him of success in his life, but also raised him in the eyes of his admirers into a paragon of the virtues of a pristine, uncorrupted Islam as well as of pre-Islamic Arab chivalry." 

Source: Wilferd Madelung, The succession to Muhammad, A study of the early Caliphate, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1997 (2001), p. 310.

                                                                                 ****************************************

D. British historian Edward Gibbon  writes

"The birth, the alliance, the character of Ali, which exalted him above the rest of his countrymen, might justify his claim to the
vacant throne of Arabia.  

Source: Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and The Fall of the Roman Empire ix, taken from the digitized version of Google Books, (hereinafter Gibbon: History), p. 334

"The zeal and virtue of Ali were never outstripped by any recent proselyte. He unified the qualifications of a poet, a soldier, and a saint.

Source: Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and The Fall of the Roman Empire ix, taken from the digitized version of Google Books, (hereinafter Gibbon: History), p. 334

                                                                              ****************************************

Apparently, five years at Shiachat have not been very helpful in giving you a good handle on Islam. 

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7 hours ago, Christianlady said:

I looked up George Jordach and would be very surprised if he was not rewarded in some way by Muslims for his praise of a Muslim figure.

Hi Christianlady

I can perfectly understand your scepticism.

However, even Christians of his day seem to believe that Jordach's wrote on the basis of his extensive researches..

One example is Michael Naima, who has written the foreword to Jordach's book.

Now let me tell you a little about Islamic history. 

You see, the fact is that the Prophet had a massive pile of enemies, perhaps like many other prophets and reformers.

And they told outright lies with the result that his personality has been significantly compromised in history.

Thankfully, all Muslims do not subscribe to the same history books.

But unfortunately, the evil that pervaded the history of Islam has not been fully understood.  

They tried to tell lies about Imam Ali as well but thankfully, that heppened some decades after the death of the Prophet.

This was a time when Muslims also saw the alternative, the rule of the villanous Umayyads.

But because the Umayyads were soon seen for what they truly were, some truth about Imam Ali has fortunately survived to this day. 

Hope this makes sense.

All the best.

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12 hours ago, baqar said:

Apparently, five years at Shiachat have not been very helpful in giving you a good handle on Islam. 

Maybe. But I think I have learned a lot, but I am still far from an expert. When it comes to Imam Ali I know almost nothing. I know more about prophet Muhammed. I find him a progressive man that changed his society to the better. Arab culture became in many ways superior to European for centuries. 

I respect your admiration for Imam Ali, and I am certain this is because you admire his ethics and ideas. You may wish to implement his ideal society (which I assume is the same as in the Quran). However freedom of speach and ideas are the key to the success of science and inventions that has improved life quality in many nations. To obtain this, we need to interpret the Bible and Quran more freely, and not regard everything written in them as Gods word being valid forever.

 

(Still think you shall consider to withdraw your statement that I am a blind follower of the politicians I vote for, and that they alle are evil, greedy and selfish.)

 

Edited by andres

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12 hours ago, andres said:

When it comes to Imam Ali I know almost nothing........... I respect your admiration for Imam Ali

The point of my post was not to seek your respect for my admiration but the admiration of non-Muslims for Imam Ali. And I did that because, as you might have noticed, another member of the forum had suspected Muslims of paying George Jordach to speak well of Imam Ali.

The suspicion was ludicrous and if people knew of Imam Ali's extraordinary humanity, they would see for themselves what may have prompted George Jordach to make that comment.

And I had put out the opinions of other non-Muslim scholars and historians, to counter the remark made by that member.  

                                                                              ****************************

In any case, I am not interested in your respect for my admiration.

That is completely irrelevant.

But I think it would be a step forward in your understanding of Islam if you contemplated on the opinions of the scholars I have quoted. If you wish to keep wasting your time and arguing endlessly, that is your choice.  But for someone who visits Shiachat every day, it would make a lot of sense to learn a little about our Imams, who have succeeded the Prophet.

And if you did that, let me tell you this, you will find that they are all paragons of humanity and wisdom.    

Most of our Imams were harassed by the caliphs endlessly. But Imam Ali lived at a time when they could not prevent his extraordinary personality from being noticed by friend and foe alike.

What I am trying to say is that facts about him (and Imam Husain) are easier to come by than about other Imams, assuming that you are interested in expanding your knowledge. WIthout some knowledge of our Imams, you know nothing of Shia Islam.  

The choice is yours, of course.  

12 hours ago, andres said:

Still think you shall consider to withdraw your statement that I am a blind follower of the politicians I vote for, and that they alle are evil, greedy and selfish.

I am sure that your English is better than mine.

But you may not have noticed that English grammar is quite funny.

English pronouns sometimes do not mean what they say.

Thus, the pronoun 'you' does not always mean 'you'.

And I have already told you that I had used the word in a generic sort of way.

There is nothing more I need to add to my earlier assertion.

And tell me this.

Do you think I know any of your ministers or parliamentarians?

No, I don't.

The only three European leaders I know a little of are Theresa May (UK), Emmanuel Macron (France) and Angela Merkel (Germany).

So if I don't know anyone, why would I speak badly about them?

But I will repeat what I said earlier that I do not have a good opinion of most politicians.

That is all I was trying to say and that is what I will always say.

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10 hours ago, baqar said:

The point of my post was not to seek your respect for my admiration but the admiration of non-Muslims for Imam Ali. And I did that because, as you might have noticed, another member of the forum had suspected Muslims of paying George Jordach to speak well of Imam Ali.

The suspicion was ludicrous and if people knew of Imam Ali's extraordinary humanity, they would see for themselves what may have prompted George Jordach to make that comment.

And I had put out the opinions of other non-Muslim scholars and historians, to counter the remark made by that member.  

                                                                              ****************************

In any case, I am not interested in your respect for my admiration.

That is completely irrelevant.

But I think it would be a step forward in your understanding of Islam if you contemplated on the opinions of the scholars I have quoted. If you wish to keep wasting your time and arguing endlessly, that is your choice.  But for someone who visits Shiachat every day, it would make a lot of sense to learn a little about our Imams, who have succeeded the Prophet.

And if you did that, let me tell you this, you will find that they are all paragons of humanity and wisdom.    

Most of our Imams were harassed by the caliphs endlessly. But Imam Ali lived at a time when they could not prevent his extraordinary personality from being noticed by friend and foe alike.

What I am trying to say is that facts about him (and Imam Husain) are easier to come by than about other Imams, assuming that you are interested in expanding your knowledge. WIthout some knowledge of our Imams, you know nothing of Shia Islam.  

The choice is yours, of course.  

I am sure that your English is better than mine.

But you may not have noticed that English grammar is quite funny.

English pronouns sometimes do not mean what they say.

Thus, the pronoun 'you' does not always mean 'you'.

And I have already told you that I had used the word in a generic sort of way.

There is nothing more I need to add to my earlier assertion.

And tell me this.

Do you think I know any of your ministers or parliamentarians?

No, I don't.

The only three European leaders I know a little of are Theresa May (UK), Emmanuel Macron (France) and Angela Merkel (Germany).

So if I don't know anyone, why would I speak badly about them?

But I will repeat what I said earlier that I do not have a good opinion of most politicians.

That is all I was trying to say and that is what I will always say.

Fine. Thank you. 

I think it will be good for me to learn about your Imans.  Is it the 12 Shia Imams you are speaking of? Or Imams in general? 

I am not only here to learn, I am also here to try to convince people to realise and consider that our holy Books were written by normal humans, reflecting a time that is long gone and will not come back.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, andres said:

I think it will be good for me to learn about your Imams.  Is it the 12 Shia Imams you are speaking of? Or Imams in general? 

Not general imams, only the special Imams.

The ordinary 'imam' is often spelt with a small i - like 'imam'.

The 12  Imams are spelt with a capital 'I' - like 'Imam'.

This practice  is also adhered to by some English writers.

You might like to begin with Imam Ali, as some material about him is available in English.

Then you might try to read about Imam Husain, as there is also some material about him in English.

2 hours ago, andres said:

I am not only here to learn, I am also here to try to convince people to realise and consider that our holy Books were written by normal humans, reflecting a time that is long gone and will not come back.

I think most Muslims will not accept that the Quran was written by human hand.. 

But that is OK, you can try that.

Bur first you must study the humanity and character of our Imams.

You cannot put the cart before the horse.

Edited by baqar

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34 minutes ago, baqar said:

Not general imams, only the special Imams.

The ordinary 'imam' is often spelt with a small i - like 'imam'.

The 12  Imams are spelt with a capital 'I' - like 'Imam'.

This practice  is also adhered to by some English writers.

You might like to begin with Imam Ali, as some material about him is available in English.

Then you might try to read about Imam Husain, as there is also some material about him in English.

Thanks.

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On 9/9/2017 at 6:26 PM, baqar said:

Hi Christianlady

I can perfectly understand your scepticism.

However, even Christians of his day seem to believe that Jordach's wrote on the basis of his extensive researches..

One example is Michael Naima, who has written the foreword to Jordach's book.

Salam Baqar,

Is Michael Naima Mīḫāˀīl Nuˁayma? If so, he is from Lebanon as well. Lebanese Christians understandably strive to not offend their Muslim neighbors, and I would not be surprised if Michael Naima was also rewarded in some way by Muslims.

Quote

 

Now let me tell you a little about Islamic history. 

You see, the fact is that the Prophet had a massive pile of enemies, perhaps like many other prophets and reformers.

And they told outright lies with the result that his personality has been significantly compromised in history.

 

Many of Muhammad's enemies were killed by Muhammad's followers.

Quote

Thankfully, all Muslims do not subscribe to the same history books.

It's is important to be objective when studying history.

Quote

But unfortunately, the evil that pervaded the history of Islam has not been fully understood.  

Facts are facts.

Quote

They tried to tell lies about Imam Ali as well but thankfully, that heppened some decades after the death of the Prophet.

How do you know they are lies?

Quote

 

This was a time when Muslims also saw the alternative, the rule of the villanous Umayyads.

But because the Umayyads were soon seen for what they truly were, some truth about Imam Ali has fortunately survived to this day. 

Hope this makes sense.

 

It makes sense that this is your worldview, how you were taught, but I don't believe the rosy version that many Muslims paint of Islamic history. Rather, I believe the cold hard facts of history, including the fact that Muslims conquered many people via war. Sadly, Christians did too, although in disobedience to Jesus Christ's commands to love enemies.

Quote

All the best.

Thanks. :) All the best to you as well!

Peace and God bless you

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5 hours ago, Christianlady said:

I would not be surprised if Michael Naima was also rewarded in some way by Muslims.

Salam madam

I think I would stay away from unfounded speculation because it could expose the entrails of my inner character and point possibly to a deep-seated jealousy in my heart.

Jealousy or hatred or malice or spite or ill will or animus or antipathy- any one or more of those.  Take your pick.

But the extraordinary character of Imam Ali was such that people either fell deeply in love with him or they contrived to undo his example.

Anyway, I have also given the opinions of other non-Muslim scholars earlier in reply to Andres.

I have nothing more to say and so this would be my last post in the thread.

Peace unto you!

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I have no idea what a truly just system is. I'm not sure it can happen on earth. Not even in small non profit organizations have I seen a justice system honoured. Even at the lowest levels, power breeds corruption. 

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On 9/19/2017 at 11:57 PM, baqar said:

Salam madam

I think I would stay away from unfounded speculation because it could expose the entrails of my inner character and point possibly to a deep-seated jealousy in my heart.

Jealousy or hatred or malice or spite or ill will or animus or antipathy- any one or more of those.  Take your pick.

But the extraordinary character of Imam Ali was such that people either fell deeply in love with him or they contrived to undo his example.

Anyway, I have also given the opinions of other non-Muslim scholars earlier in reply to Andres.

I have nothing more to say and so this would be my last post in the thread.

Peace unto you!

Salam Baqar,

You are of course entitled to your opinion, same as everyone else is entitled to their opinion. Regardless, it is helpful to be objective when studying history.

Peace and God bless you

 

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On 10/1/2017 at 12:54 PM, Christianlady said:

You are of course entitled to your opinion, same as everyone else is entitled to their opinion. Regardless, it is helpful to be objective when studying history.

Objectivity comes from the opinions of others, which I gave to begin with. .

And when you had concerns with the first one, I gave more.

You are certainly not the one who claim objectivity.

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