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Bible changes-Mandela Effect?

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It would be a lot more convincing if the arguments were remotely accurate. 

The lion and the lamb was taught because they start with "L" so kids are more interested and, of course there's more assumed drama using a lion to make the point, but I have yet to "lion" in this reference at all in any Bible. The metaphoric "wolf" is the reference to the enemy of Israel, and of course Israel is the lamb. Israel now shares living space with Gentiles, prophecy fulfilled.  

If this is the case, then the Bible has only been altered by those who read one thing and teach another. In that case, call it corruption and don't be thinking Islam is immune.

You really don't think that Rome had gold and silver coins minted but had no banks do you?  ελθων is the Greek word for "banks", although at the time it included established buildings as well as change tables in the market. 

Tell me this is where you started to doubt the author.

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On 2017-09-02 at 0:28 PM, Sindbad05 said:

We are saying from centuries, Bibile is altered but no one believes us. :( 

The Bible has been an object for critical research for about 2 centuries now. Mainstream specialist view is that what we have got today is not 100% original. But close.

The Quran has not yet been object to such critical research. Most(?) Muslims still claim it is perfect thou. This desire to live in a 7th century world, makes it difficult to catch up with modern nations. 

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Just now, andres said:

The Bible has been an object for critical research for about 2 centuries now. Mainstream specialist view is that what we have got today is not 100% original. But close.

The Quran has not yet been object to such critical research. Most(?) Muslims still claim it is perfect thou. This desire to live in a 7th century world, makes it difficult to catch up with modern nations. 

No, there is no any thing in QUran which makes it difficult to be applied in this world. Quran is the only divine book which was praised by English religious historians as best of all divine books and word of God. 

I believe Quran is for all times, Wisdom is for all times,  

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18 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Quran is the only divine book which was praised by English religious historians as best of all divine books and word of God. 

?????????????????????????????????

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18 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

No, there is no any thing in QUran which makes it difficult to be applied in this world. 

I believe Quran is for all times, Wisdom is for all times,  

You really think punishing theaft with amputation of a hand would be apropiate in a developed democrasy????

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On 9/3/2017 at 10:49 AM, andres said:

You really think punishing theaft with amputation of a hand would be apropiate in a developed democrasy????

He's not talking democracy. In a democracy he'd be given a  disability pension, never have to work another day.

According to Sharia law you can hack off a hand, but I've never heard what happens to the guy after. 

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2 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

According to Sharia law you can hack off a hand, but I've never heard what happens to the guy after. 

As I have noted a number of times earlier, the Sharia people talk about varies from one persuasion to another. The one I belong to does not permit hacking for every pilfering. But only when there is absolutely no excuse for the crime. 

The practical intepretation  of that is that a number of different conditions must be satisfied.

About 12 - 14, I think.

Thus if Donald Trump steals your money, he may face the chopping board because there is no excse for him to steal. 

Bt if a poor man steals five dollars, the conditions are not satisfied.

But once again all these details vary fom one group of Muslims to another. 

2 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

In a democracy he'd be given a  disability pension, never have to work another day.

 And by the way, Islam's is probably one of the oldest social security systems around.

In the time of Imam Ali, even Christians were entitled to social security.

But if you like to hold the common Muslim government to represent Islam's codes, well that s your problem.

True Islam is also completely free of elitism, something that is so common all over the world today, as it was  yesterday and the day before. 

Moder day democracies are so full of elitism and the power of the rich and the influential.

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Are you really saying that today there are no Muslim or Christian nation that has a social system as good as that of Imam Alis society? 

In Sweden Muslims have the same access to social security as everybody else living in our country.  I bet our social system is better than Imam Alis. Had Donald Trump stolen a Tesla car during a visit here, he would have to pay lots of money to the owner and be fined or imprisoned. Do you think amputating his hand would be better? And how many lashes should President Clinton have had for having sex with Monica Lewinsky? It is difficult to judge morals and ethics from long ago, but in my opinion rules like these are no longer fair. 

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1 hour ago, andres said:

 I bet our social system is better than Imam Ali's. 

That is because you have more wealth, better technlogy and a better infrastructure.

But the cancer in modern democracies is elitism and pestilential self-gratification.

Modern societies are not based on justice or equality.

If Imam Ali's government had half the wealth that rich modern nations have, his system would have been a billion light years ahead of theirs.

The poor sense of humanity in Western democracies can be seen in the following article.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/sweden-rejects-asylum-claim-by-106-year-old-afghan-woman-bibihal-uzbeki

 

 

Edited by baqar

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27 minutes ago, andres said:

Are you really saying that today there are no Muslim or Christian nation that has a social system as good as that of Imam Alis society? 

It is comparing 656-661 A.D with 2017 A.D, how's that though?

 

On 9/3/2017 at 7:26 PM, andres said:

The Quran has not yet been object to such critical research. Most(?) Muslims still claim it is perfect thou. This desire to live in a 7th century world, makes it difficult to catch up with modern nations.

Dr. Johnson (A Thinker)

 

"Is the Qur’an poetry? No, it’s not. But it’s hard to distinguish whether it is poetry or not. The Qur’an is something higher than poetry. Nevertheless the Qur’an is neither history nor a poetic work in verse giving guidance and counsel as Jesus (pbuh) said on mountain.

 

"In fact, the Qur’an is like neither the Buddha’s suggestions nor a logic book nor preach emitted to the public by Plato.

 

"This is the voice of a Prophet. It’s a sound that the whole world can listen to. The reflection of this sound tinkles in palaces, deserts, cities and states."

 

Rodwell (A Priest)

 

"The Qur’an has inflicted the Arabian Bedouins and has changed them in a way that you would regard them as legendary. Destroying the Idolatry, the Qur’an; has established the belief on Wahdaniyyah (the Oneness of Allah), removed worshiping to demons, fairies and stones, and stopped savage traditions like burying maids as live, and removing superstitions and polygamy, the Qur’an has been the divine grace and blessing for Arabs.

 

"Attesting and exalting Allah (swt)–The Creator who has created the entire universe by His ‘Qadir’ attribute, is the All-Knowing, is the Almighty having the omnipotence and greatness; the Qur’an deserves all praise. Along with the terse and concise expressions, the Qur'an told the deepest truth, and the strongest and the most significant wisdom with expounding words. It’s just because of the principals of the Qur’an, Fusdat, Baghdad, Cordoba, Delhi achieved greatness and glory shaking the entire Christian Europe."

 

Corselle (An Intellectual – translated the Qur’an)

 

"The Qur’an is the most perfect and excellent work of the Arabic. This miraculous work cannot be introduced by mankind. The Qur’an itself is an enduring miracle and such a miracle that it is more supreme than resurrecting dead bodies.

 

"This holy book itself is enough to prove that it is originally heavenly. Enlightening the Arabian bare and barren deserts, and defying poets and preachers, the Qur’an insisted for an equivalent of a verse of the Quran but there has been no one paying in kind."

 

Marmaduke Pickthall (a British Author)

 

"A perfect book of “ethics law” can be formed by principles that are taught in the Qur’an and notified by the Prophet Muhammad (saw). It is impossible to deny that the principles of the Qur’an do favour for people in various countries and attach people who wish to be close, to Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.

 

"Only the Qur’an could perfectly describe the truth of the Creator and created ones. Not only Muslims, but Christians and Jewish admit, too."

 

Goethe (a German Litterateur)

 

"That is a book that’s been attracting, marvelling and amazing us to kneel in front lately within a short period of time. The Qur’an’s style is such strong, supreme and magnificent in accordance with its content and purpose. This book will remain as the most influent book for eras."

 

Doctor Maurice (Famous Author - Went forward in Arabic Literature and Published a Translation of the Quran)

 

"What is the Qur’an? It’s a miracle of rhetoric (balaghah) and eloquence (fasahah) which is superior to any criticism. The Qur’an gives a rightful pride to 350 million Muslims with Its virtue of defining all meanings perfectly, and that it is eternal and the most brilliant of the celestial books. No, we could go further;

 

The Qur’an is the finest heavenly book that Allah the All-Eternal and the Almighty has granted to mankind in grace. Considering the welfare of humanity, the Qur’an’s expression is much more sublime than the Greek philosophy.

 

The Qur’an is full of praise (hamd) and thanksgiving (shukr) to the Creator of the earth and the sky. The perfectness in each word of the Qur’an is hidden in the greatness of Allah who has created everything, and has been dispatching and guiding them in accordance with their ability.

 

For litterateurs, the Qur’an is a book of literature. For linguists, the Qur’an is a treasure of words. For poets, the Qur’an is a source of harmony. Furthermore, this book includes any lore on behalf of Hukm and Fiqh.

 

Only the voice rising from the Mountain Hira in Arabia could have survived Byzantine Christians from dead ends and the false belief. This voice was the voice raising the Divine word to highest authority. However, Rums couldn’t have listened to the call of this voice. The voice has been teaching the purest and the most accurate religion to people."

 

Nepolean Bonaparte – Quoted in Christian Cherfils BONAPARTE ET ISLAM (PARIS  1914)

“I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness.”

 

I can still post more, but I don't want to make it long..

Edited by M.IB

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1 hour ago, baqar said:

That is because you have more wealth, better technlogy and a better infrastructure.

But the cancer in modern democracies is elitism and pestilential self-gratification.

Modern societies are not based on justice or equality.

If Imam Ali's government had half the wealth that rich modern nations have, his system would have been a billion light years ahead of theirs.

The poor sense of humanity in Western democracies can be seen in the following article.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/sweden-rejects-asylum-claim-by-106-year-old-afghan-woman-bibihal-uzbeki

 

 

Our knowledge and wealth has increased. Modern democrasies are based on justice and equality, (also for males and females!) but we will never obtain a perfect society. Slavery is forbidden in many nations today. This does not mean it does not exist. Crime has always existed, but in old days slavery was not a crime. Equality?

 

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Hi M.IB

No you do not need to post more examples. Except for Napoleon and Göthe, I never heard of those persons. Noone can question that the Quran is a very influential book, having produced millions of followers of different kinds. I doubt however that Göthe and Napoleo could read Arabic. I am also sure that they did not consider the Quran to be the true uncorrupted word of Allah.

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52 minutes ago, andres said:

Hi M.IB

No you do not need to post more examples. Except for Napoleon and Göthe, I never heard of those persons. Noone can question that the Quran is a very influential book, having produced millions of followers of different kinds. I doubt however that Göthe and Napoleo could read Arabic. I am also sure that they did not consider the Quran to be the true uncorrupted word of Allah.

Hi andres.

The Qur'an have German/French versions too, however they were harder to produce.

Edited by M.IB

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1 hour ago, baqar said:

What a delusion!

Keep dreaming! 

Never heard about a constitution?  A constitution can naturally decide that thr Sultan or Imam have absolute power. In democrasies this is not so:

Swedes 18 years of age or more, one vote. No matter what gender. No priest decides who they can vote for. 

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1 hour ago, M.IB said:

Hi andres.

The Qur'an have German/French versions too, however they were harder to produce.

So in which language did Göthe read the Quran? And is this translation as "beaytiful" as the Original?

Edited by andres

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On 05/09/2017 at 10:30 PM, andres said:

Never heard about a constitution?  

No, we live in the jungle.

We don't have a constitution in the jungle.

We play with zebras and chimps, we eat bananas and carrots and we sleep on tree tops. 

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8 hours ago, baqar said:

No, we live in the jungle.

We don't have a constitution in the jungle.

We play with zebras and chimps, we eat bananas and carrots and we sleep on tree tops. 

Of course you have heard about constitutions. If you have an open mind you also know that constitutions differ. Not all constititions are democratic. In true democrasies we find freedom of speach, religion and the right to vote for politicians of your own choise. Not a perfect system either, but so far the best invented. This is what Muslims nations need so badly. I am certain this will happen. I believe Iran will be the first. 

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Andres, I never said that democracy is better than dictatorship. 

But in an earlier post, you had said that "Modern democracies are based on justice and equality."

That is not true at all.  

Not at all.

Please go back and read your earlier post. 

A democracy has nothing to do with justice and much less with equality.

                                                                    - - - - - - - - - 

Let us tralk about equality first.

The USA is the world's richest democracy but there are millions of homeless people there.

Apart from the homeless, there are lots of very poor people.

And in most Western democracies, the gap between the rich and the poor is growing bigger by the day.

You call that equality?

That is just one example and I could keep giving you many more.

                                                                  - - - - - - - - - 

Now let us talk about justice.

Many rich democracies led by the USA have been giving their full support to Saudi Arabia even though they are fully aware that there are no human rights in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia has also used Western supoort to kill people in Yemen.

Are you even aware of the condition of people in Yemen?

And it is all because of the support of those democracies for Saudi Arabia.

And it is not only the USA that is supporting this evil country.

Theresa May, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, has deliberately ignored Saudi transgressions.

She is hell-afraid to displease that nation. 

You call that justice?

I could give you many more examples but I will leave it at that.  

                                                                - - - - - - - - -  

It is true that a democracy is supposed to be the best known representation of the voice of the people.

But that is all.

It has nothing to do with equality or justice.

Edited by baqar

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2 hours ago, baqar said:

Andres, I never said that democracy is better than dictatorship. 

But in an earlier post, you had said that "Modern democracies are based on justice and equality."

That is not true at all.  

Not at all.

Please go back and read your earlier post. 

A democracy has nothing to do with justice and much less with equality.

                                                                    - - - - - - - - - 

Let us tralk about equality first.

The USA is the world's richest democracy but there are millions of homeless people there.

Apart from the homeless, there are lots of very poor people.

And in most Western democracies, the gap between the rich and the poor is growing bigger by the day.

You call that equality?

That is just one example and I could keep giving you many more.

                                                                  - - - - - - - - - 

Now let us talk about justice.

Many rich democracies led by the USA have been giving their full support to Saudi Arabia even though they are fully aware that there are no human rights in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia has also used Western supoort to kill people in Yemen.

Are you even aware of the condition of people in Yemen?

And it is all because of the support of those democracies for Saudi Arabia.

And it is not only the USA that is supporting this evil country.

Theresa May, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, has deliberately ignored Saudi transgressions.

She is hell-afraid to displease that nation. 

You call that justice?

I could give you many more examples but I will leave it at that.  

                                                                - - - - - - - - -  

It is true that a democracy is supposed to be the best known representation of the voice of the people.

But that is all.

It has nothing to do with equality or justice.

You have misunderstood the meaning of equality and justice when speaking about constitutions. 

Equality does not mean that everybody shall have the same standart of living and amount of money on their bank account. There never was a nation where this has been realised. Some are born with ability or talent to be more successful than others. In some democrasies you have a wide gap between poor and rich, in others the gap is smaller, depending on how the population decides to vote. USA voted for Trump. In three years they can choose another if they wish. Like many US citizen I also find it shameful that such a rich country does not wish to have free medical care and education for everybody. 

I agree with you that the western support for Saudi Arabia is doubble standard. However all citizen are subject to national laws, but national laws are not valid abroad. A Swedish girl cannot drive a car in Saudiarabia even if she has a valid swedish drivers licens.

International relations do not follow any juridical laws. All nations behave with doubble standards when it comes to relations with other nations. I think pragmatism and opportunism may be better words when describing this.

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Equality does not mean that everybody shall have the same standart of living and amount of money on their bank account.

I never said that. 

1 hour ago, andres said:

I think pragmatism and opportunism may be better words when describing this.

My understanding of justice and equality is based on the teachings of Islam, in particular, Imam Ali.

And yours? I am not sure, but it seems to be based on socialist-capitalist lines, as in northern Europe.

It might, however, be best to leave it at that.   

Edited by baqar

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4 hours ago, baqar said:

My understanding of justice and equality is based on the teachings of Islam, in particular, Imam Ali.

And yours? I am not sure, but it seems to be based on socialist-capitalist lines, as in northern Europe.

There is nothing such as total equality when it comes to human rights. Some societies have more of it than others. Equal rights for women is a rather new idea.

I do not live in a dtatic society. Laws may change depending on what the majority find is right and wrong. Not the other way around. This is what I see as the fundamental difference between us.

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13 hours ago, andres said:

This is what I see as the fundamental difference between us.

No, you have absolutely no idea what a truly just system is all about because you blindly follow the will of elected people, most of whom are mean, selfish, and seekers of personal gain. And nothing more. 

 

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