Jump to content

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

35 minutes ago, monad said:

What is far more interesting is how both kirtc and quisant failed to understand what i had written. Clearly there is never a perfect way to put forward opinion, as emotions always sway the rational. It Is time to retire.

RIP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, monad said:

both kirtc and quisant failed to understand what i had written.

Haha, touche' :)  But, if it is 'purely for pleasure' (as you say) can I not say what pleases me? 

*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/21/2017 at 2:01 AM, Quisant said:

So, what ever I do I am upsetting somebody...

You are upsetting no one.

But as I told you earlier, for 8 years, you have been wasting your as well as our time in this forum.

You know it is all absolutely futile. 

Instead of trying to explore new friendships in this site by participating other forums that this site offers, you have been coming back again and again and again to this same futile forum.

Time to take stock of your actions.

On 8/21/2017 at 2:01 AM, Quisant said:

What would you do if you were me?

Try other forums and try to make some friends instead of irritating people day in and day out.

Learn from 8 years of your failure to convince us.

I think you are a good man.

But you should learn how not to waste people's and your own time.

Obviously you don't know how to.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know enough about logic or physics to take a hard position on whether or not a creator is logically or scientifically necessary. I'm inclined to lean towards the atheist view point but personally I don't care or think it matters whether there is or isn't a creator. 

Something that I do find interesting is the path that leads from a logical/scientific process that concludes that there must be a creator of some kind to the acceptance of  a specific definition of this creator such as the Christian version, the Muslim version or whatever other ones there are. Is this a thing? Are they joined up or is creation the point where faith takes its own faith?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Quisant said:

I exist and my surrounding exist ..therefore God ...is not an elegant conclusion. 

:) You along with your surroundings were non-existent, your surroundings & you begins to exist.

Therefore, a necessary existence is prerequisite, which is supreme in knowledge & power.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds, and peace and greetings be upon our Master and Prophet, Ab-al-Qassem al-Mustafa Muhammad and upon his immaculate, pure and chosen household, especially the one remaining with Allah on earth.

So the topic here is about Atheism, which as an Ex-Atheist myself can say is like relying on elephants to walk on a spiders web, but unfortunately nowadays "Atheism" or how I label it as "Lack of common logic" has been equalled with being enlightened or somehow intelligent. Leaving out of course the great Muslim and Christians Scientists and Philosophers like Isaac Newton, Mullah Sadra, Ibn al-Haytham etc. out of the picture completely but nevertheless let us dive into this.

First Question:

Is the universe Eternal?

Well there are many reasons why the universe cannot have existed forever:

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics: 

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is about the quality of energy. It states that as energy is transferred or transformed, more and more of it is wasted.  (https://www.livescience.com/50941-second-law-thermodynamics.html)

So if the universe was eternal how come we still find ourselves with energy? Why has it not been wasted already if our universe had existed for ever?

The Theory of relativity:

Albert Einstein’s theory of relativity means that the universe had a beginning and was not eternal as he had previously believed (Einstein was originally a pantheist). His theory proved that the universe is not a cause, but instead one big effect—something brought it into existence. Einstein disliked his end result so much that he introduced a “fudge factor” into his theory that allowed for an eternal universe. But there was only one problem. His fudge factor required a division by zero in his calculations—a mathematical error any good math student knows not to make. When discovered by other mathematicians, Einstein admitted his error calling it “the greatest blunder of my life.” After his acknowledgment, and upon confirming further research that showed the universe expanding just as his theory of relativity predicted, Einstein bowed to the fact that the universe is not eternal.

Galaxy seeds:

Scientists believe that, if the Big Bang is true (first, there was nothing, then, BANG, something came into being), then temperature “ripples” should exist in space, and it would be these ripples that enabled matter to collect into galaxies. To discover whether these ripples exist, the Cosmic Background Explorer – COBE – was launched in 1989 to find them, with the findings being released in 1992. What COBE found was perfect/precise ripples that, sure enough, enable galaxies to form.

The radiation echo:

Bell Labs scientists in 1965. What is it? It is the heat afterglow from the Big Bang. Its discovery dealt a death blow to any theory of the universe being in a steady state because it shows instead that the universe exploded. 

Hydrogen turning into helium:

In the basic Hydrogen fusion cycle, four Hydrogen nuclei (protons) come together to make a Helium nucleus. 

If the universe is eternal then how come we still have hydrogen? Why has it not already turn into helium?

This is as far science can go with my argument, since now on it is based on Mathematics, Logic and Philosophy.

Some Atheists insist that energy could have exited at a quantum level, however there are 3 major flaws in this: 

1) How can the laws of the universe apply before the universe even existing?

2) How can this simple quantum energy create such precision in the universe we reside in?

There is something interesting they point out by saying ' This energy could've needed some time to heat up and BOOM!

Flaws:

1) Time is an aspect that governs this universe.

2) This is implies an impossible infinity. For example, if someone tells you he has been counting down since infinity for ever and has recently reached the number 2,1,0,-1 etc. How come he has reached these numbers now? Has he not had a infinite amount of time to reach this level?

There are many Mathematical and logical aspects to this, I do not have the knowledge to further delve into this matter therefore I move on.

Could the universe have come out of nothing? This is as absurd as saying that my glass of water came into existence out of nothing, but let us look at the law of non-contradiction:

In classical logic, the law of non-contradiction (LNC) (or the law of contradiction (PM) or the principle of non-contradiction (PNC), or the principle of contradiction) is the second of the three classic laws of thought. It states that contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction)

So how can there be nothing but then out of absolute nothingness get something like mass or laws etc? 

Could the universe have been merely by simple chance?

The word renowned math mathematician Roger Penrose who is a friend of Stephen Hawkings delved into this and found out this was the number:

1/10 to the power of 10 to the power of 123. Let me point out that mathematically a number is 1/10 to the power of 50 it is regarded as 0 probablity. 

As Penrose puts it, that is a “number which it would be impossible to write out in the usual decimal way, because even if you were able to put a zero on every particle in the universe, there would not even be enough particles to do the job.”

A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.”

–Cambridge University astrophysicist and mathematician Fred Hoyle

“Fred Hoyle and I differ on lots of questions, but on this we agree:  a common sense and satisfying interpretation of our world suggests the designing hand of a superintelligence.”

–Former Harvard University Research Professor of Astronomy and the History of Science Owen Gingerich, who is now the senior astronomer at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory. Gingerich is here reflecting on Fred Hoyle’s above comment.

For those in search of truth I recommend this website:

http://godevidence.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/21/2017 at 6:22 AM, baqar said:

Try other forums and try to make some friends instead of irritating people day in and day out.

@Quisant

Some popular threads on SC you can participate in occasionally, to have a more balanced experience here:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, baqar said:

But as I told you earlier, for 8 years, you have been wasting your as well as our time in this forum.

You know it is all absolutely futile. 

 

I am of Mediterranean extraction, I have strong memories and roots. I don't want to forget them.

I often spend time cooking and eating stuff like  Kibbeh, Kafta, Kanafeh,  Hummus, Tabbouleh etc. etc., am I wasting my time in doing so? According to your principle I am, according to mine I am not. I do not consider 4/5 hours a week on a Forum a waste of time.

I do not want to completely loose touch with the religious world; I find Sunnis often duplicitous and Christians tend to paranoia. Here is OK, I have thanked the Mods for their liberal tolerance towards a secular thinker.

I believe you are a good man too but we have different tastes, you like a softly softly approach and dislike confrontation; I like a more direct approach. The only thing that I find odd in your attitude is your need to be over-protective. You like a cosy comfy Forum, I am not bothered about that.

I really don't understand why it should bother you how or where I spend my time, there are not many things I own but the way I use time is mine to choose. 

If you really  believe you are wasting your time talking to me or reading my posts, you don't have to; that is what the ignore button is there for. I don't have a problem with what I do.

I hope I haven't said anything offensive to your ears and that you understand my point of view.

wslm.

*

21 minutes ago, Reza said:

Some popular threads on SC you can participate in occasionally, to have a more balanced experience here:

The sub forum I partecipate in is what I am interested in but many thanks, I shall bear that in mind.

Best wishes.

*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Quisant said:

I hope I haven't said anything offensive.

Not at all!

9 hours ago, Quisant said:

I really don't understand why it should bother you how or where I spend my time, there are not many things I own but the way I use time is mine to choose. 

Life is short and I don't believe in unproductive and counter-productive waste of valuable time..

For anyone with a little common sense, it should be obvious that if 8 years of hard work has produced no results, another 8 years will not do so either.

9 hours ago, Quisant said:

If you really  believe you are wasting your time talking to me or reading my posts, you don't have to; that is what the ignore button is there for. I don't have a problem with what I do.

Thanks for that advice.

And just as you think you have the right to advise me, so too do I have the right to advise you.

And that is all I was doing and will continue to do, whenever I feel like. 

If you don't like it, ignore it, as you told me to do.

But I repeat again that someone who fails to learn from 8 years of absolute failure must be a very stupid and obstinate man.

And that is what I think of you.

Sorry, my good friend. 

Like a good friend, thanks to Shiachat's policy of allowing everyone the right of free speech, I will continue to give you my advice, whenever I fell like.

If you don't like it, just ignore it and keep on with your obstinate behaviour till your last breath.

But listen to this.

I will tell you the real reason why you won't give up.

Because in your heart of hearts, you know that there is a God.

And since your pride refuses to accept Him, you must keep on trying to fool yourself into believing that He is not there.

Well, then so be it.

You have your right of free speech and so do I.

As you have rightly said, anyone who does not like to read what another person has written, should ignore it.

God bless you, my fiend and May He give you the sense to accept the truth.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/21/2017 at 6:49 PM, baqar said:

Life is short and I don't believe in unproductive and counter-productive waste of valuable time..

 

On 8/21/2017 at 6:49 PM, baqar said:

years of absolute failure must be a very stupid and obstinate man.

And that is what I think of you.

It does seem  an odd/counter-productive decision on your part to use your own valuable time in continuing to give advice to someone you consider an absolute failure, very stupid, obstinate man..

 

On 8/21/2017 at 6:49 PM, baqar said:

Because in your heart of hearts, you know that there is a God.

I have said repeatedly that I am anti-clerical, I am not anti-God.

I also believe it is arrogant and disrespectful to claim falsities about Him, an abomination to worship Him other than through self-knowledge, and a blasphemy to give Him any name/attribute other than "reality". 

*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/21/2017 at 6:49 PM, baqar said:

But I repeat again that someone who fails to learn from 8 years of absolute failure must be a very stupid and obstinate man.

And that is what I think of you.

Can we act like adults here? The stupid ones are the people who hold passive internet grudges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/19/2017 at 9:29 AM, monad said:

Baqar - The problem is, these type of subjects require a very high level of intellectual knowledge and the power of oration to written format. The only persons who came close to the positing ideas to the written context were Jibreal , MuhammedAli and Inshallah, but I am sure they too will admit, that all this is typical surface nonsense, a bit like icing on the cake. If men were to immerse in the underlining, majority would be stuck at the cream. 

The simple example is that of reading Mutahari's book on justice, where he refutes Hegel, Hume and Locke. If I recall correctly. But then one can agree upon it and leave it as is, or they would then have to read the works of those authors to understand their viewpoints. How many have the time or intellectual capacity to traverse this subject, as we know, it will take years.

I do enjoy Quisants remarks and points, but it seems with time, they have become simple questions poking at the untrained minds. Purely for pleasure.

I think a lot of these back and forth experiences are also demonstrations of our ignorance.

In the end, faith is faith. It is not science, and God is not something clearly seen or touched (if God were to exist). And we all know this.

And so the discussion persists indefinitely because no conclusion can be made. And while people like Jibreal appear to be well versed in philosophy, human philosophy and understanding of God as a whole is limited. Limited by our own senses and understanding of existence.

Steven Hawkins is a super-brain, but what does he know? Relatively speaking, not much. All of mankind is limited. 

Edited by iCambrian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/22/2017 at 3:48 AM, Quisant said:

I am anti-clerical, I am not anti-God.

I also believe it is arrogant and disrespectful to claim falsities about Him, an abomination to worship Him other than through self-knowledge, and a blasphemy to give Him any name/attribute other than "reality". 

*

What is your understanding of god?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • Bismehe Ta3ala, Assalam Alikum  I would never celebrate the slaughter of a nation.  Curse be upon CC. Just like we hate it when people celebrate on Ashura, we should feel the same way towards this mass murdering day.  But every year I mention the same thing, just a reminder for the passerby. M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 
    • Thanks the most relevant answer to the question i have got is given below:  Mirza Jawad Tabrizi سؤال: ألا يكره للمصلي لبس السواد؟ كيف نجمع بين هذا الحكم الشرعي وبين استحباب لبس السواد عزاءا على الحسين عليه السلام؟ جواب: لم يثبت كراهية لبس السواد لا في الصلاة ولا في غيرها، نعم ورد في بعض الروايات ما يستفاد منها كراهية لبس السواد، ولكنها ضعيفة السند، ومع الإغماض عن ضعفها، فالكراهة في الصلاة بمعنى أقل ثوابا، ولبس السواد في عزاء الحسين والأئمة عليهم السلام لأجل إظهار الحزن وإقامة شعائر المذهب مستحب نفسي، وثوابه أكثر من نقص الثواب في الصلاة، والله العالم. Question: Isn’t wearing black while praying Makruh? On the other hand, donning black is commendable during the mourning period for Imam Hussein (AS). What is the justification for the contradiction between these two points? Answer: The undesirability of wearing black clothes in the state of praying or in other situations is not proven as an absolute fact. It is only derived from a number of narratives the chains of transmission of which are unreliable and weak. Regardless of their unreliability, wearing black clothes while praying will lessen its spiritual reward. But putting on black clothes in grief for Imam Hussein (AS) is a religious rite and commendable. Al-‘Amili; al-Intisar, vol. 9, p. 247; publication, Dar al-Sirat, Beirut, Lebanon, the first edition, 1422. Following the analysis of jurists’ ideas it was finally revealed that wearing black in prayers is Makruh. Another question which may come into the readers’ minds is whether praying in black clothes for black-clad mourners during the month of Muharram or ceremonies held for the martyrdoms of the Aimma is Makruh as well. The question has been answered by Haj Aqa Mirza Jawad Tabrizi. سؤال: ما حكم اللباس الأسود في الصلاة أيام وفيات الأئمة عليهم السلام، هل هو مكروه ؟ جواب : إذا كان اللبس بداع إظهار الحزن وتعظيم الشعائر فليس بمكروه، والله العالم. It is not Makruh if the motivation behind the clothing is the expression of grief. Al-‘Amili; al-Intisar, vol. 9, p. 247; publication: Dar al-Sirat, Beirut, Lebanon, the first edition, 1422. The considerable point in jurists’ decrees is bad this kind the prohibition implies that wearing black while praying will only diminish its spiritual rewards. In other words, donning black while praying does not nullify the prayer. It only decreases its rewards. So, wearing garments in other colors is recommended for the state of praying. http://www.valiasr-aj.com/english/mobile_shownews.php?idnews=251
    • ^^^ A7SANTI sister, Mash'Allah.  God bless you. Allhoma sali 3la Mohammad wa Ahli Mohammad 
    • Are you asking if they are makrooh to wear in Muharram? No they are not.  They are only makrooh to wear in days that are not mourning days. Sayyed Al-Sistani said it is makrooh to wear black in a normal day.
    • My intention is clear as given in my questions. Wasalam
×