Jump to content

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

:bismillah:

Good day everyone.This will be a big topic.

So I was debating an atheist ex-Muslim,and he was telling me that he left Islam cause of multi religion.He said anyone is born to Muslim parents is a Muslim,same with Christians etc..

And also a am an called Sigmund Freud said that religion is a delusion created by man himself,so as Richard Dawkins..

Even though scientific proofs are more overwhelming for existence of a creator.

How can such universe come from nothing ?

Philosophy is bad.

God doesn't exist for them,they tell me,while surrounding me 3 of them came.

I need some help,I am confused.

And could you use philosophical/scientific agreements for God I would be much delighted.

Edited by M.IB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, M.IB said:

So I was debating an atheist ex-Muslim,and he was telling me that he left Islam cause of multi religion

When you have different paths. You don't stop walking. You just need to use your brain to select the right path to walk on.

 

53 minutes ago, M.IB said:

And also a am an called Sigmund Freud said that religion is a delusion created by man himself,so as Richard Dawkins..

If religion is created by man. Then way don't these scientist/philosopher come together and give a new religion which is perfect and error-less. Why don't they produce a book like Quran?. Can they bring Holy personalities like Ahlul Bayth (A.S)?. Who are able to inform us regarding every aspect of life. Tell us secrets of universe and every information from being of the universe till the end of universe. Islam is the perfect religion which cover each aspect of the life, in case you follow proper islam. But unfortunately when they don't accept the reality of islam they come with these kind of dumb arguments which makes no sense. 
 

Edited by Syed Irtiza Ali Rizvi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, M.IB said:

And also a am an called Sigmund Freud said that religion is a delusion created by man himself,so as Richard Dawkins..

This is same wordings as of past infidels who denied miracles by saying it magic and called religion as a lie. Because they don't have any arguments to validate their statements so they just babbled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, M.IB said:

How can such universe come from nothing ?

Out of curiosity, where do you think the raw material that makes up the Universe came from?

1) Did God say 'be and it is' to existing matter and caused the Big Bang
or 
2) Did it all come from the Being / mind of God Himself?

What is your view on this?

ws.

*

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe." Quran (2:6)

"Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment." (Quran 2:7)

Honesty people who have no light in their heart are basically blind. This is so destructive for anyone. All of a sudden you turn ignorant and start picking faults in everything. You start to be less grateful. You become a machine who has no purpose in life. You start to act like you know what will happen in the hereafter.

My sister is becoming an atheist and it hurts me when I see the way her brain functions. She is very nice from the heart but is negative in every aspect of life. When she lost faith, all she does is pick faults in everything like "why would God make earthquakes happen?", "why does God punish people?", "Prayer is useless", "Hell shouldn't exist" etc.

Faithless people are in an endless cycle of questioning without using rationality. The result will be the same, that they will die without a purpose. I mean why do atheists put so much effort in disproving religion once their life has no purpose to start with. According to their model, they came from nothing and will go nowhere. Atheists try so hard, despite the fact that they will be nothing in a short period of time. It makes no sense to me.

 

 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The first law of thermodynamics say that energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

When universe was created, time and space was started and created. 

From whatever energy source this massive energy came from that caused everything including time into creation, it must thus be a source that is beyond time since time didnt exist and it must be a source beyond space since space didnt exist. A source that is eternal and ever living.

We call this source Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, IbnSina said:

From whatever energy source this massive energy came from that caused everything including time into creation, it must thus be a source that is beyond time since time didnt exist and it must be a source beyond space since space didnt exist. A source that is eternal and ever living.

If someone has told you that an entity caused time to exist, then that person is wrong.              

If time has been caused to exist, then it must have passed from a state of nonexistence into existence. But changes in state occur within time, so if there was no time when time didn't exist, then it could not possibly change its state and come into existence.
(In the absence of time nothing can change.) 

God bringing time into existence requires time. It requires the succession of two events. God existing along with no time and then bringing time into existence again implies the existence of time. 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Quisant said:

God bringing time into existence requires time.

No it doesn't. That's the roadblock of belief you are having.

God is not subject to any superseding physical law, or has to "work around" anything. That's what makes him God. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Reza said:

No it doesn't. That's the roadblock of belief you are having.

What you say is not really logical. Begging the question somewhat.

When God acted to create He entered into time, of necessity, now having a past and a present.

If a change has occurred then Time has passed and if Time has passed then a change has occurred. Is that acceptable to you?

Can you explain how a conscious entity can go from undecided to decided without time passing? I would be very interested to read your opinion.

wslm.

*

 

Edited by Quisant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, M.IB said:

:bismillah:

Good day everyone.This will be a big topic.

So I was debating an atheist ex-Muslim,and he was telling me that he left Islam cause of multi religion.He said anyone is born to Muslim parents is a Muslim,same with Christians etc..

And also a am an called Sigmund Freud said that religion is a delusion created by man himself,so as Richard Dawkins..

Even though scientific proofs are more overwhelming for existence of a creator.

How can such universe come from nothing ?

Philosophy is bad.

God doesn't exist for them,they tell me,while surrounding me 3 of them came.

I need some help,I am confused.

And could you use philosophical/scientific agreements for God I would be much delighted.

Ask him does he know matter doesn't exist until you observe it? He is going to say yes... or may be he doesn't know but its proven. 

So ask him we all know this universe exist so tell me who is observing all of this? He might say universe has a conscious and that's why we exist. so you can say that i call that consciousness god. Boom KO... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is they say universe have always existed(infinite),however this is very illogical scientifically .. There have must been a powerful entity that intervened and cause mankind,the universe to be existent.

My problem is philosophical .. I am not very good philosophically although there is a scholar called Dr. Adnan Ibrahim and he is very good while debating atheists,he has destroyed them many times...

Edited by M.IB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Quisant said:

When God acted to create He entered into time, of necessity, now having a past and a present.

God didn't "enter" anything, and is not bound by the inherent limitations of creation, with concepts such as time. 

2 hours ago, Quisant said:

If a change has occurred then Time has passed and if Time has passed then a change has occurred. Is that acceptable to you?

Yes, but only as God permits it so. God could also will that time be a non-factor. 

3 hours ago, Quisant said:

Can you explain how a conscious entity can go from undecided to decided without time passing? I would be very interested to read your opinion.

Be, and it is. Simple as that. Don't make it more complicated than it is. No math equations needed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, M.IB said:

The problem is they say universe have always existed(infinite),however this is very illogical scientifically .. There have must been a powerful entity that intervened and cause mankind,the universe to be existent.

My problem is philosophical .. I am not very good philosophically although there is a scholar called Dr. Adnan Ibrahim and he is very good while debating atheists,he has destroyed them many times...

Ask a question and we will try our best to answer your. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Quisant said:

Out of curiosity, where do you think the raw material that makes up the Universe came from?

1) Did God say 'be and it is' to existing matter and caused the Big Bang
or 
2) Did it all come from the Being / mind of God Himself?

What is your view on this?

1)Probably

2) Probably as mass stays constant,unless mass itself didn't exist,what happens then ? Are you referring that the universe is infinite ?

What Muslims do is "X is infinite,Y is a creation"

What atheists do is "X is not existent,Y is infinite matter"

However that sounds(to the atheistic point of view) much illogical.

We know that Y is definitely not infinite,as our "observable" universe is around 13.8 +/- 0.4 or 0.2 Billion years,we know it has been expanding since then(big bang) which means ==> Our current location which is FAR away than where it all started,it expanded to here,

Another argument was presented to me by atheists was "Time crystals" which they use to say the universe is infinite and was repeating.

Although time crystals do not repeat in space(material) rather in time,however the universe have been expanding IN space,which denies all the "Infinite/cyclic universe theory".

Think about it.

Philosophers think every religion is man made,however they just don't refer to science.

For someone may think "Oh heaven and hell are fairy tales" however Islam is not a magical/fairy tale.

A religion is to be bound by laws,to let ALL the temptations of life for a better after life.What's the point of dying ? Will not everything die out eventually ? And the big crunch may happen? The sun after billions/millions of years will die out,so will starts and planets.

Black holes are in the Quran,so are wormholes.Now don't come and tell me that our illiterate shepherd who was living a normal life,with his wife,why didn't he just live with his "life" money,collecting them and commit sins.

Humans according to Psychology/Philosophy want their own interests,to achieve them,however a mans' interests back then where sexual sins and money.Nothing more nothing less. They made idols to make them as gods,why didn't he just worship them ? And give up,like JUST LIVE LIFE BRUH! However we know he had a strong will,very much,which was delivering a message to Humanity by our Designer.

I have also a theory,can Allah be the energy that created us ? A metaphysical energy ? or he is actually far than our dimension ? Isn't Allah closer to us than our veins ? Or as some say he is on his throne ? A superimposed throne ?

Edited by M.IB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“I may say that the impossibility of conceiving that this grand and wondrous universe, with our conscious selves, arose through chance, seems to me the chief argument for the existence of God; but whether this is an argument of real value, I have never been able to decide. I am aware that if we admit a first cause, the mind still craves to know whence it came and how it arose. Nor can I overlook the difficulty from the immense amount of suffering through the world. I am, also, induced to defer to a certain extent to the judgment of the many able men who have fully believed in God; but here again I see how poor an argument this is. The safest conclusion seems to be that the whole subject is beyond the scope of man’s intellect; but man can do his duty.”

Charles Darwin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Quisant said:

If someone has told you that an entity caused time to exist, then that person is wrong.              

If time has been caused to exist, then it must have passed from a state of nonexistence into existence. But changes in state occur within time, so if there was no time when time didn't exist, then it could not possibly change its state and come into existence.
(In the absence of time nothing can change.) 

God bringing time into existence requires time. It requires the succession of two events. God existing along with no time and then bringing time into existence again implies the existence of time. 
 

You cannot use your notion of how the universe works for the explanation of something that is beyond space.

Your understanding of the laws of nature only applies for that which is part of and dependent of the universe.

You have zero knowledge of that which is beyond universe so you cannot perceive it nor can you imagine it because it is beyond your capacity. Your mind cannot wrap its head around it because it has no reference, nothing to compare it to or relate it to.

Even your notion of time, your understanding of time and how it is perceived, its only as limited as you are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, M.IB said:

The problem is they say universe have always existed(infinite),however this is very illogical scientifically .. There have must been a powerful entity that intervened and cause mankind,the universe to be existent.

My problem is philosophical .. I am not very good philosophically although there is a scholar called Dr. Adnan Ibrahim and he is very good while debating atheists,he has destroyed them many times...

Universe always existing goes against the big bang theory as well as the laws of thermodynamics, that statement is not in accordance with current scientific understanding of universe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Quisant said:

time, 

 

Here are few details for your information and review, and you can explain how in the world a logical, rational, intelligent and knowledgeable person should interpret these , before formulating a trick question based on something that may or may not exist - How do you use it as a standard?

Quote
Newtonian Time

According to its most famous proponent, Sir Isaac Newton, for example, absolute time(which is also sometimes known as “Newtonian time”) exists independently of any perceiver, progresses at a consistent pace throughout the universe, is measurable but imperceptible, and can only be truly understood mathematically. For Newton, absolute time and space were independent and separate aspects of objective reality, and not dependent on physical events or on each other.

Time, in this conception, was external to the universe, and so must be measured independently of the universe. It would continue even if the universe were completely empty of all matter and objects, and essentially represented a kind of container or stage setting within which physical phenomena occur in a completely deterministic way. In Newton’s own words: “absolute, true and mathematical time, of itself, and from its own nature, flows equably without relation to anything external”.

 

Quote
Space-Time

One aspect of Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity is that we now understand that space and time are merged inextricably into four-dimensional space-time, rather than the three dimensions of space and a totally separate time dimension

 

 

Quote

Their attempt to unify relativity and quantum mechanics resulted in time essentially disappearing completely from their equations, suggesting that time does not exist at all and that, at its most fundamental level, the universe is timeless. In response to the Wheeler-DeWitt equation, some have concluded that time is a kind of fictitious variable in physics, and that we are perhaps confusing the measurement of different physical variables with the actual existence of something we call time.

Quote

While looking to connect quantum field theory with statistical mechanics, theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking introduced a concept he called imaginary time. Although rather difficult to visualize, imaginary time is not imaginary in the sense of being unreal or made-up. Rather, it bears a similar relationship to normal physical time as the imaginary number scale does to the real numbers in the complex plane, and can perhaps best be portrayed as an axis running perpendicular to that of regular time. It provides a way of looking at the time dimension as if it were a dimension of space, so that it is possible to move forwards and backwards along it, just as one can move right and left or up and down in space.

Despite its rather abstract and counter-intuitive nature, the usefulness of imaginary time arises in its ability to help mathematically to smooth out gravitational singularities in models of the universe. Normally, singularities (like those at the centre of black holes, or the Big Bang itself) pose a problem for physicists, because they are areas where the known physical laws just do not apply. When visualized in imaginary time, however, the singularity is removed and the Big Bang functions like any other point in space-time.

http://www.exactlywhatistime.com/

Edited by S.M.H.A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Quisant said:

If time has been caused to exist, then it must have passed from a state of nonexistence into existence.

Yes it has passed from a state of nonexistence into existence. A thing which do not change, does not require time for measuring any change. Time begins to exist along with the things which begins to exist to measure the change.

 

16 hours ago, Quisant said:

But changes in state occur within time, so if there was no time when time didn't exist, then it could not possibly change its state and come into existence.

Correct, that's why we have been informed about it in the following verses:

يُدَبِّرُ الْأَمْرَ مِنَ السَّمَاء إِلَى الْأَرْضِ ثُمَّ يَعْرُجُ إِلَيْهِ فِي يَوْمٍ كَانَ مِقْدَارُهُ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ مِّمَّا تَعُدُّونَ
[Shakir 32:5] He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.

تَعْرُجُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ إِلَيْهِ فِي يَوْمٍ كَانَ مِقْدَارُهُ خَمْسِينَ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ
[Shakir 70:4] To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

16 hours ago, Quisant said:

God bringing time into existence requires time. It requires the succession of two events. God existing along with no time and then bringing time into existence again implies the existence of time. 
 

Time begins to exist with things which begins to exist to measure change. It is different everywhere.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Quisant said:

Can you explain how a conscious entity can go from undecided to decided without time passing? I would be very interested to read your opinion.

The entity which exists irrespective of time does not require time for measurement. Time does not apply on necessary being (Wajib al Wajood).

Is it possible for anyone to measure infinity?  

Is it possible that without time there are no memories or are there memories only because there is time? Could it be that time & memories are same?

Edited by Salsabeel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

When it comes to how we perceive time, humans can estimate the length of an event from two very different perspectives: a prospective vantage, while an event is still occurring, or a retrospective one, after it has ended. In addition, our experience of time varies with whatever we are doing and how we feel about it. In fact, time does fly when we are having fun. Engaging in a novel exploit makes time appear to pass more quickly in the moment. But if we remember that activity later on, it will seem to have lasted longer than more mundane experiences.

The reason? Our brain encodes new experiences, but not familiar ones, into memory, and our retrospective judgment of time is based on how many new memories we create over a certain period. In other words, the more new memories we build on a weekend getaway, the longer that trip will seem in hindsight.

This phenomenon, which Hammond has dubbed the holiday paradox

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-does-time-seem-to-speed-up-with-age/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/18/2017 at 2:34 AM, M.IB said:

:bismillah:

Good day everyone.This will be a big topic.

So I was debating an atheist ex-Muslim,and he was telling me that he left Islam cause of multi religion.He said anyone is born to Muslim parents is a Muslim,same with Christians etc..

And also a am an called Sigmund Freud said that religion is a delusion created by man himself,so as Richard Dawkins..

Even though scientific proofs are more overwhelming for existence of a creator.

How can such universe come from nothing ?

Philosophy is bad.

God doesn't exist for them,they tell me,while surrounding me 3 of them came.

I need some help,I am confused.

And could you use philosophical/scientific agreements for God I would be much delighted.

Allow me to go through the thought process with you,

So there is a universe with a huge complexity in it, it seems you want to know where and how it came into existence. We know it came, and there was nothing before it so if God created the Universe then how did he come/exist prior to something that wasn't there? Scientifically, space and time are bound, if you live in space you are bound by time, but time isn't absolute so it would be very much possible that if you were of no matter at all and 'existed' outside the realm of space then time isn't something that applies for you. The best way I imagine it is as imagine a train travelling across the earth, the universe is that train, it is moving and the movement is time, everything outside the train, the earth itself is 'God' he can see the train move but doesn't matter where it moves it is still within his grasp, it makes no difference it's position to his existence, he is just there. So due to space-time link, it is very much possible for God to exist given his nature which is thoroughly explained in the Quran.

Now how can I be so sure God created the Universe? Think about the laws of the Universe. They are absolute and doesn't matter where you are, you cannot change them, e.g. you cannot destroy or create matter for example. And before your atheist friends attack you with this, you can change some things like the boiling point of water for example, but that isn't one of the natural laws that's just a property. So for the Universe to exist something had to happen, a reaction, matter + anti-matter, blast of energy whatever you want you can choose. However, whatever it was it would have to still follow a set of rules, like for matter and anti-matter to react, there are laws of nature that dictate they will react. So where did the foundation rules of the Universe come from? If there was nothing prior how could they have existed? All you need to do it look into the complexity of nature and you will know something is up.

Now here's an 'offence' question for you, if God doesn't exist wouldn't it be all about survival then? Why don't we look up to thieves, rapists, murderers etc. who live only for themselves? they are going to disappear into a void at the end of life, so no matter what you do it has no impact and you will never feel anybody else's pain because you can't switch bodies, no accountability so why don't we go mad? even better, why don't we all just commit suicide? If your life is a struggle and you're not rich enjoying all the pleasures of the world, it would make perfect sense to just kill all ourselves. But what about life and experiencing it? Well, it makes no difference whether you lived 1 year or 100 years if it is all going to perish. Imagine I told you to build a castle as glorious as you can, once you're done I will destroy it all, would you bother? If you knew it will perish immediately is there a point? Would you buy a house if you knew it would be knocked down? Nope, so why invest time and pain into a life that will soon terminate and you don't even know when! Plus nobody can argue with you about morality because it would have no foundation, seize to exist if there is no 'purpose' for anything. This is the reality of the atheist position it, to me seems a lot worse than one with hope in something greater. 

So as a challenge, can you prove to me it is bad to kill someone I don't like if I knew I would never be caught, punished or held accountable?

Although there are many more points, I will leave it there. for the time being.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Your understanding of the laws of nature only applies for that which is part of and dependent of the universe.

You have zero knowledge of that which is beyond universe so you cannot perceive it nor can you imagine it because it is beyond your capacity. Your mind cannot wrap its head around it because it has no reference, nothing to compare it to or relate it to.

And YOU are the exception? You know there is something and You have knowledge of 'beyond universe' ? Or are you just repeating hearsay? 

Can God make 1+1= 2 ?  Can God create another God? Can God make a square circle? Can God act without time passing?

To speak of "doing things" in any meaningful sense is to speak of them in space/time contingent terms. 

UNLESS you can actually describe a category of "doing things" without time and space and a mechanism by which they could operate, all without committing an internal contradiction by making any time/space contingent references. 

You are repeating what most apologists do in this situation: nakedly assert that there is "something" - some other vague, nebulous category of "doing things" - that is "beyond human comprehension". In this case, the discussion was over before it began, since you will have effectively admitted to speaking gibberish. 

'Existence outside time' is one of those oxymorons like 'military intelligence' or 'government work', I'm afraid. You're going to have to show how something 'outside time' can exist, not merely assert that it does. 

Or are you confessing that God is unknowable?

ws.

2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

The entity which exists irrespective of time does not require time for measurement. Time does not apply on necessary being (Wajib al Wajood).

Really? And you know that because....?

See my reply above.

ws.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • What racist comments?
    • Hello, Not a single rebuke from fellow Shia Chat members or Edits from Shia Chat Moderators?  But, to date, there are two likes? This post clearly violates Shia Chat rule number 4, No swear words, unmannered replies or racist comments, especially when directed at other members. A warning followed by a temporary ban shall be met. If a member repeats their offensive or racist language, a permanent ban will take place. No excuses. Overt slogans of "death" or "destruction" (or similar wording) of any specific government, nation, people, group, or religion is not permitted. However, constructive criticisms of the above are welcomed and encouraged. And, I question the morals of those that would allow a post such as Darth Vader's to go unanswered.  Many of you like to lament about the irrationality of "Islamaphobia."  Yet, you only clap and praise such racist and divisive post. It has been nice chatting with you all.  I have learned what I came here to learn. All the Best, David
    • Wasalam  Are you not allowed to see your daughter anymore sister?  If Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى can understand our thoughts I have no doubt that the creator of heaven, earth and hell can determine our dreams. Anything is possible sister and this very much could be a mercy of Allah bestowed upon you. 
    • Jungle main mor nacha kis ne dekha?? @shiaman14
    • I heared a scholar saying that every sinner will burn in hell. And this burning is to cleanse him from sinns he committed. And this burning of sinner is mercy of Allah. Once he is cleansed from sins he will be send to paradise. 
×