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Sunni/Shia How do you know your sect is on Haqq?

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1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

Abu Bakr (r.a)

Ali (r.a)

Both Ali and Muawiyah

Hussein (r.a)

Muawiya and Ali fought. That led to death of thousands including some sahaba ra. And you say both are right. If despite killing thousands a given person is right. Then We should apply same doctrine every where. 

What is wrong if some sunni scholars like Zakir Naik praise yazeed. For them yazeed was right that he killed Hussain.

 Can you tell how war between Ali and Muawiya ended. What was cause of war.

How after killing thousands of Muslims including sahaba ra Muawiya became Khalifa. 

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9 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

Abu Bakr (r.a)

If a companion is right against the view of Ahl albaayt it means you are possibly rejecting the words of Allah swt mentioned in Quran:

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّـهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا ﴿٣٣﴾

Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying. (33:33 Last part)

As all kind of blemishes are kept away from Ahl Albayat and they are kept pure by Allah swt

Edited by skyweb1987

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9 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

Ali (r.a)

Both Ali and Muawiyah

here you are in contradiction by yourself. If Imam Ali is right in Jamal (against Aisha RA) then how  Muwayia  the opponent in Siffin is considered right against Imam Ali?

As per the hadith of the Prophet saww :  “Whoever points a piece of iron at his brother, the angels curse him.” [Jami At-Tirmidhi – graded sahih]

Reference  : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2162
In-book reference  : Book 33, Hadith 5
English translation  : Vol. 4, Book 7, Hadith 2162

Pointing a piece of iron, such as a knife, dagger, sword, or gun at a Muslim, even in play, has the effect of creating discomfort and fear. It also puts the person in danger should the weapon accidently fire or hurt him/her. It is haraam for a Muslim to frighten another Muslim unnecessarily, or put them at risk. This is what we can understand from being told that the angels curse him who points a weapon at another Muslim.

Then  on the basis of hadith Muawiya,  the opponent of Imam Ali is certainly committed haram / crimes and he is wrong being the killer of the thousands of believing Muslims.

Edited by skyweb1987

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On ‎26‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 7:57 PM, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

Yes, I am 100% certain they were said by the Prophet (saw) and Ali.

:) If the hadith related to Prophet Muhammad (peace & blessings of Allah be upon him & his pure progeny) would be accepted as "Sahih", Umar would not have doubted on the prophet-hood at Hudaybiyah, he would have never ran away from the battle fields, specially in Hunayn after pledging the allegiance that he will never show his back to enemies.  

& Why would Ali (a.s) wish to have the deeds of Umar when he himself has been mentioned as "Salih-ul-Mo'mineen" in Quran. When he himself was mentioned as "Kull-e-Emaan" by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the battle of Trench.

 

On ‎26‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 7:57 PM, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

Abubakr's judgement was according to the instructions of the Prophet (saw). And please don't mention the so called "Khutba Fadakiya" which is nothing but a fabrication, even doubted by Shia scholars.

Ali was on Haqq in both fitans (civil wars).

And of course Hussain, the leader of youth in paradise, was on Haqq against the oppressive Yazid.

Instructions which allegedly given only to Abu-Bakar prior to his death? Even the daughter of Prophet was not aware of his rights in the inheritance and she logged her claim in inheritance out of ignorance (na'uzobillah).

 

Lets see what Abu Bakr said:

Sunan Abu Dawood Book 19, Tribute, Spoils, and Rulership (Kitab Al-Kharaj, Wal-Fai’ Wal-Imarah) Number 2967 reads:

Narrated Abu Bakr:
Abu Tufayl said: Fatimah came to Abu Bakr asking him for the inheritance of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). Abu Bakr said: I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: If Allah, Most High, gives a Prophet some means of sustenance that goes to his successor.


Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Riyadh al Nadira:

“Hadhrat Fatima went to Abu Bakr and said “Is Abu Bakr the Waris of the Prophet (s) or his children? Abu Bakr said ‘I am not the Waris, rather his children are. Fatima then said ‘Why have you taken the Prophet’s portion?’ Abu Bakr said: I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) say: If Allah, Most High, gives a Prophet some means of sustenance that goes to his successor”.

Sahih al Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325 [Similar reports can be found in Sahih Muslim and Sunan Nasai]:

Narrated ‘Ayesha(mother of the believers):
After the death of Allah’s Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah’s Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah’s Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqah (to be used for charity).” Fatima, the daughter of Allah’s Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah’s Apostle.

Why Abu Bakr gave three different responses to the claims of Sayyida Fatima (s.a)? I don't want to go into the details of the matter related to Fadak. You will find many threads here on this subject, the reason to quote above responses is to show you the confusion of Abu Bakr.
 

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On 8/24/2017 at 10:43 PM, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

Waleykum Salaam

I believe Sunnism is on Haqq because it is superior to Shiasm in every Islamic field: the recitation and tafseer of the Quran and other works done related to Quran - the Hadith System, History, spreading Islam etc.

One believes what he wants to believe.

Edited by Waseem162

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On 8/18/2017 at 6:31 AM, shiaman14 said:

Salaam brother,

The Quran states:

[Shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

As shia, we believe firmly that ultimate authority can come from Allah and no one else. My sunni brothers say that this 'authority' is any ruler. This would mean that we would have obey rulers such as Yazid, Haroun Rashid, etc who were despots. More recently it would mean obeying Saddam or Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi or even Donald Trump for that matter. Allah can never tell us to obey taghut so the authority in this verse is not refering to man-made authority but divine authority. 

Shias believe in this divine authority; sunnis dont. How can someone who openly denies a command be on haqq and how can the people who obey the command to obey not be on haqq.

Similarly, the Quran discusses wilayah of three:

[Shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

As shias, we say:

La ilaha illallah
Muhammadur rasulullah
Aliyun WaliAllah

Our belief is in line with the Quranic edict, therefore we are on haqq.

salam bro

i'm refering to verse 4:59.

is ullil-amri a commonly used word among the arabs prior to its revelation?

Edited by hoskot

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On 8/18/2017 at 2:43 AM, Faruk said:

Salam,

How do you know your sect is on Haqq? And why would you never become a sunni/shia?

i believe shia's are not on haqq. this is an objective view, and not a subjective one. my belief is based upon that which we both agree on. the quran. sunnis believe in the 7 ahruf. and the qiraat as well. and there are masahif for those qiraat, which have slight differences in them. we have isnaads, countless, going back to the prophet pbuh of how to recite the quran. the shias dont. the shias' as far as i am aware, dont believe in the 7 ahruf either. or the qiraat. so if i were to give two different masahif to a shia, he wouldnt know which one is the "quran". i got to islam through the quran. and shias fail to provide the quran. sunnis dont fail to do so. so, if you cant bring the quran to me, and when i ask you how do you know that the book known as quran today is the one that the prophet muhammad pbuh received, all you give me are circular arguments instead of proper proof, then you cant possibly be on the haqq. and since we have multiple mushafs, with very slight variations between them due to the ahruf and qiraat, if one rejects any one them, one rejects the promise of Allah in the quran of protecting the quran. 

any shia here can feel free to correct me if i am wrong. 

there are other reasons as well. but this is the main one. 

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Salam, 

I don't understand you. Do you mean that imam Ali a.s. and his party (shia) did not memorized al-Quran?  

Wasn't the majority of al-Hufaz part of the party of imam Ali a.s.? 

 

And what about the Twelver imams who all lived in the islamic abode?  

Do you believe they did not memorized nor had knowledge of the Quran? 

And if not. Then how did it all happen? 

What is the use of knowing and memorizing al-Quran without the right comprehension and understanding? 

Sudais is one of the most famous reciters of al-Quran yet claims that the US ans Saudi Arabia are the pillars of peace and stability in the world. 

Not saying he is the face of sunni islam but just to give an example.

Edited by Faruk

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On 10/14/2017 at 7:29 PM, Faruk said:

Salam, 

I don't understand you. Do you mean that imam Ali a.s. and his party (shia) did not memorized al-Quran?  

Wasn't the majority of al-Hufaz part of the party of imam Ali a.s.? 

 

And what about the Twelver imams who all lived in the islamic abode?  

Do you believe they did not memorized nor had knowledge of the Quran? 

And if not. Then how did it all happen? 

What is the use of knowing and memorizing al-Quran without the right comprehension and understanding? 

Sudais is one of the most famous reciters of al-Quran yet claims that the US ans Saudi Arabia are the pillars of peace and stability in the world. 

Not saying he is the face of sunni islam but just to give an example.

are you aware of the existence of isnaads of the quran and/or its recitation?

i am saying that there is, to the best of my knowledge, not a single sanad for the quran that consists of shias only. on the contrary, the sunnis have many chains that contain only sunnis, as well as sunnis and shias mixed. but as you might know, sunnis dont reject shias in ilm ur rijal simply because of them being shia. i might get banned for this, even though this wont technically be breaking any rules, even though i have seen much more tolerance from shias as compared to sunnis/salafis, but the shia have so many ahadith from the infallible imams. could they not get/learn the quran from them too? with a sanad going back to them? if shiism were the truth, could Allah swt not even get the quran preserved through the true followers of islam? and had to use the misguided people i.e. sunnis? and that too in huge numbers?

and then there is the issue of "multiple qurans" available to us. the qiraat and the ahruf. can explain if you want.

and then the issue of compilation of the quran, related to the first issue. to put it simply, how can you trust the sunnis with regards to the preservation of the quran? why do you trust them? how do you know that the book you believe today to be Al-Quran is what Allah swt revealed to His prophet a.s? i always receive circular arguments in response to these questions. and that "everyone says it is the quran", which is slightly hypocritical because every sunni says this is the quran and they have reason to say so. you, the shia, have no reason to say so. so if you believe the sunnis about the quran, then believe them about everything else in which they agree unanimously. and then there is the "there is only one such book, no dispute among what the quran is" this is also false on so many levels, the first being that yes, there is only one quran, but different readings and ahruf. so, if i were to bring you two different readings, with slight differences in the verb conjugation, you wouldnt be able to tell me which one you believe in. and hence, by your standards, the promise of Allah of protecting the quran(Q15:9) will have been broken. 

hope that explains it, at least. again, feel free to correct me.

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10 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

are you aware of the existence of isnaads of the quran and/or its recitation?

i am saying that there is, to the best of my knowledge, not a single sanad for the quran that consists of shias only. on the contrary, the sunnis have many chains that contain only sunnis, as well as sunnis and shias mixed. but as you might know, sunnis dont reject shias in ilm ur rijal simply because of them being shia. i might get banned for this, even though this wont technically be breaking any rules, even though i have seen much more tolerance from shias as compared to sunnis/salafis, but the shia have so many ahadith from the infallible imams. could they not get/learn the quran from them too? with a sanad going back to them? if shiism were the truth, could Allah swt not even get the quran preserved through the true followers of islam? and had to use the misguided people i.e. sunnis? and that too in huge numbers?

and then there is the issue of "multiple qurans" available to us. the qiraat and the ahruf. can explain if you want.

and then the issue of compilation of the quran, related to the first issue. to put it simply, how can you trust the sunnis with regards to the preservation of the quran? why do you trust them? how do you know that the book you believe today to be Al-Quran is what Allah swt revealed to His prophet a.s? i always receive circular arguments in response to these questions. and that "everyone says it is the quran", which is slightly hypocritical because every sunni says this is the quran and they have reason to say so. you, the shia, have no reason to say so. so if you believe the sunnis about the quran, then believe them about everything else in which they agree unanimously. and then there is the "there is only one such book, no dispute among what the quran is" this is also false on so many levels, the first being that yes, there is only one quran, but different readings and ahruf. so, if i were to bring you two different readings, with slight differences in the verb conjugation, you wouldnt be able to tell me which one you believe in. and hence, by your standards, the promise of Allah of protecting the quran(Q15:9) will have been broken. 

hope that explains it, at least. again, feel free to correct me.

 

Beside the fact that the Quran is the Word of Allah containing a Message and Mercy to the Worlds and is much more than a combination of letters and words that can be read diffirent with slight diffirences in verb conjugation etcetera. I'd like to ask you a question.

When was it that the Quran and its recitation(s) and diffirent reading(s) were secured and defined?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Faruk said:

 

Beside the fact that the Quran is the Word of Allah containing a Message and Mercy to the Worlds and is much more than a combination of letters and words that can be read diffirent with slight diffirences in verb conjugation etcetera. I'd like to ask you a question.

When was it that the Quran and its recitation(s) and diffirent reading(s) were secured and defined?

let me ask you a couple of counter questions, to establish some basic understanding first,

what do you mean by the quran? 

who said it was preserved/secured?

edit: infact, forget the second one. lets just go with the first one. 

Edited by just a muslim

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

let me ask you a couple of counter questions, to establish some basic understanding first,

what do you mean by the quran? 

who said it was preserved/secured?

edit: infact, forget the second one. lets just go with the first one. 

Just the way you meant it. Don't care about my understanding.

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You talked about an isnad right? When and with who did it stop?

Edited by Faruk

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2 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Just the way you meant it. Don't care about my understanding.

see, that would be fine as my understanding of the quran is this: the book that was revealed by Allah to his final messenger pbuh. 

but the next question would only have a sunni answer. not a shia one: where is the quran? and how do you know it is the quran?

1 minute ago, Faruk said:

You talked about an isnad right? When did it stop?

it didnt. we have it from the prophet pbuh till today. continuous chains. 

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

it didnt. we have it from the prophet pbuh till today. continuous chains. 

You talked about a chain consisting of shia's and sunni's and about chains consisting of only sunni's.

When did this chain stop or about which time-period of that chain were you talking?

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1 minute ago, Faruk said:

You talked about a chain consisting of shia's and sunni's and about chains consisting of only sunni's.

When did this chain stop or about which time-period of that chain were you talking?

i dont understand your question. if you go to a proper hafidh who has ijazah and a sanad, you can ask him to tell you his sanad. and he will tell you who he learnt the quran from, who his teacher learnt it from, who he learnt it from, and so on, till the last or rather the first teacher, prophet muhammad pbuh.

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12 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

i dont understand your question. if you go to a proper hafidh who has ijazah and a sanad, you can ask him to tell you his sanad. and he will tell you who he learnt the quran from, who his teacher learnt it from, who he learnt it from, and so on, till the last or rather the first teacher, prophet muhammad pbuh.

Brother when you told me you knew a chain or chains consisting of only sunni's and consisting of sunni's and shia's.

Do you at least know who these sunni's and sunni's and shia's were where you talked about and in what time period they lived in?

Edited by Faruk

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2 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Brother when you told me you knew a chain or chains consisting of only sunni's and consisting of sunni's and shia's.

Do you at least know who these sunni's and sunni's and shia's were where you talked about?

i personally didnt know them ofc. but their records are present in books of rijal. sorry for being a bit thick headed but if you are trying to get at something, i am not getting it.

 

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12 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

i personally didnt know them ofc. but their records are present in books of rijal. sorry for being a bit thick headed but if you are trying to get at something, i am not getting it.

 

Well then at least can you tell me from which time period these sunni's and shia's were?

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On 8/18/2017 at 12:43 AM, Faruk said:

Salam,

How do you know your sect is on Haqq? And why would you never become a sunni/shia?

I believe in the concept that only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى choose an successor and protector of Islam (Not that people decided themselves who is the successor and protector), like He have shown many times in Qur'an. And then you observe in sahih hadiths that he leaved Qur'an and Ahlulbait, so that is what I hold on. I take their hadiths only so that I can practice them so perhaps I could become among the Salihiin.

And those who believe and do righteous deeds - We will surely admit them among the righteous.

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33 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

 

 

Next time do not come with hearsay but with detailed facts. You heard the sound but doesn't know where the bell is.

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6 hours ago, Faruk said:

Well then at least can you tell me from which time period these sunni's and shia's were?

...from the earliest generation up until now? you do understand that the sanad does not stop for the quran, right?

5 hours ago, Faruk said:

Next time do not come with hearsay but with detailed facts. You heard the sound but doesn't know where the bell is.

what exactly are you looking for? 

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On 8/18/2017 at 12:43 AM, Faruk said:

Salam,

How do you know your sect is on Haqq? And why would you never become a sunni/shia?

Waslam,

In one majlis an Alim said : after surah fatiha [and keep  us on the path of those who you  praised/gifted and keep us from path of those who are "daleen" (cursed)] 
All sects say Ameen and only one say Alhum dulilah rabil Alameed after this.


Personally i believe that history has been molded and distorted by  ALL sects. So, in my opinion there is no definite sect that is on righteous path. What i do for myself i  searh references ofany any instance in all sects and whats common i  take it. What disputed i leave it. and interpretations are only up to the limit what common sense allows. So the closest are the one who claim to be teaching from ahl e bayat. I cant go in details here but i will give you an example to explain my approach:


Waqyah of Bagh e Fidq is reported in books of nearly every sect. So it can be said that Biba Fatima Zahra S.A did go along with Ali ibn e abi Talib A.S and Husnain kreemain A.S to ask for it.

This  much is common in books of different sects, now why first and second khalifa did not give her , her right, as she S.A claimed to be is the real point of discussion. 
So to reach a verdict one can assume only two things either of parties were wrong in their claim. And i do not have the guts  to say that Bibi Zahra S.A wanted this Bagh for herself and was wrong on her claim. 
I read somewhere: when facing a delimma remove all the impossibilities and the remaining will be true, however  unlikely it might be !

 

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AFAIK, the only sect which has hadith witnesses by Quran its truthfulness, is shia.

Hadith al‐Thaqalayn

"I leave to you the two weighty things; the Book of Allah and my household. You shall not go astray as long as you keep to them. They shall not separate until they shall come to me at the pond (in Paradise)"

Quran witnesses the truthfuness of the hadith above.

[Shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

[Shakir 5:56] And whoever takes Allah and His messenger and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.

All Muslim sects narrated traditions that Imam Ali had given his ring as charity while he was bowing in prayer and Allah praised him for that and revealed this verse.

you can read more in "Life of Imam Ali bin Muhammad Al-Hadi", page 67/201

 

 

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On 8/27/2017 at 12:57 AM, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

 

:bismillah:

:salam:

Sorry but your first paragraph lacks any evidence.

How did earlier people come to Islam in the first place? Through the very people who are the champions of Islam according to Sunnis and are revered by them but hated in Shiasm.

It also seems you have restricted Ahlulbait to handful of people. FYI Ahlulbait were many - many of them had power and wealth. In fact, many Islamic dynasties were from Ahlulbait. Even the Abbasids who ruled for centuries were from Bani Hashim hence Ahlulbait and many more Islamic Sunni dynasties from Ahlulbait.

"Rights of Ahlulbait were taken away" Yes, some Ahlulbait (many of whom are not even liked in Shiasm) were oppressed, I agree, but not the way you believe.

Please stop your deceitful attempts. You know by yourself who the Ahlulbayt are. Going by your logic, it wouldn't be a surprise when people like you will start including Abu Lahab in the Ahlulbayt and add r.a after his name. The select few Ahlulbayt are those who have been mentioned it he Quran and Hadise Kisa. You are trying to deceive people purposefully.

It doesn't matter what you believe because the history tells us that the rights of Ahlulbayt were taken by man-made Muslim Caliphs.

 

Quote

Yes, I am 100% certain they were said by the Prophet (saw) and Ali.

Abubakr's judgement was according to the instructions of the Prophet (saw). And please don't mention the so called "Khutba Fadakiya" which is nothing but a fabrication, even doubted by Shia scholars.

Ali was on Haqq in both fitans (civil wars).

And of course Hussain, the leader of youth in paradise, was on Haqq against the oppressive Yazid.

Instructions of the Prophet (pbuh)? Please tell me you are joking. You have no proof to support your baseless claim about Abu Bakr.'s fabrication 

Regarding the Khutba, it is strange that you call a khutba with Quranic verses as a fabrication but even after so many years you and your likes have not been able to refute the Quranic verses presented by Bibi Fatima (s). If you want to give it a try then why not give us one Quranic verse which proves the absurd claim made by Abu Bakr? Infact, Abu Bakr did not have a verse to support his fabrication. I am interested if you can go one step further than your master and bring us a verse to prove your point. If you can't then you know that you are supporting an usurper. We all know what has Allah swt promised for usurpers.

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