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According to the Quran, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى honoured and raised Humanity above other species. Mankind has been gifted by Allah with capabilities that Animals cannot obtain. Scientists have concluded that we evolved from Homo Sapiens, Neanderthals too. Literally Scientists claim that our ancestors were cavemen, primitive species. Verily Allah did not make man primitive species, he honoured our civilizations and raised us. 

Mohammed al-Baqir (as) explained that our world and our species were not the only ones created. That Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى created other Adams and other worlds. Meaning that these Neanderthals and Homosapiens are actually the other Adams that the Great Imam wad mentioning.

According to scientific studies, Neanderthals did not understand the concept of family and love and striving together while Homosapiens had a better understanding of that but were still primitive. Essentially from these scientific studies, Allah was perfecting Man until our Great Lord created Hazrat Adam (as). Allah having creating our Adam species bestowed his Mercy upon us and guided us so that we can draw nearness to him and submit to him and live in Paradise for eternity. The other Adams that Allah created transgressed their boundaries and had animalistic behaviour in disobedience to Allah so Allah wiped them out. Their species, their race by the Might of Allah is extinct. 

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Ja'far As-Sadiq (as) also said there was 1000 Adam and an Adam before the creation of Prophet Adam (as).

Also a Shia scholar called Sayyid Kamal AlHaydari a famous one said that Mankind is the bigger circle,and Human is the smaller circle,and Mankind such as Cro-magnons and Neanderthals really disappeared awkwardly.

Allah said a successor,not the first creation ;)  

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5 hours ago, M.IB said:

Ja'far As-Sadiq (as) also said there was 1000 Adam and an Adam before the creation of Prophet Adam (as).

Also a Shia scholar called Sayyid Kamal AlHaydari a famous one said that Mankind is the bigger circle,and Human is the smaller circle,and Mankind such as Cro-magnons and Neanderthals really disappeared awkwardly.

Allah said a successor,not the first creation ;)  

True. Problem is Scientists try to prove that we originated from them simply again to create a timeline of human existence whereby Allah doesnt exist.

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20 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

According to the Quran, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى honoured and raised Humanity above other species. Mankind has been gifted by Allah with capabilities that Animals cannot obtain. Scientists have concluded that we evolved from Homo Sapiens, Neanderthals too. Literally Scientists claim that our ancestors were cavemen, primitive species. Verily Allah did not make man primitive species, he honoured our civilizations and raised us. 

Mohammed al-Baqir (as) explained that our world and our species were not the only ones created. That Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى created other Adams and other worlds. Meaning that these Neanderthals and Homosapiens are actually the other Adams that the Great Imam wad mentioning.

According to scientific studies, Neanderthals did not understand the concept of family and love and striving together while Homosapiens had a better understanding of that but were still primitive. Essentially from these scientific studies, Allah was perfecting Man until our Great Lord created Hazrat Adam (as). Allah having creating our Adam species bestowed his Mercy upon us and guided us so that we can draw nearness to him and submit to him and live in Paradise for eternity. The other Adams that Allah created transgressed their boundaries and had animalistic behaviour in disobedience to Allah so Allah wiped them out. Their species, their race by the Might of Allah is extinct. 

"Primitive" is a relative statement. My eyes blurred, my aching back, my wisdom teeth that do not fit in my own mouth, my vulnerability to the sun etc.

What is primitive but a term that we are simply making up? A neanderthal or homosapien would be far more advanced than those before them. And so far as anyone is aware, homo sapiens sapiens is not the end of the line. God could very well still be "perfecting" us, the only difference between now and 10,000 years ago, is that we are aware of our development. But there is no reason to believe God has stopped the "perfecting" process.

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1 hour ago, iCambrian said:

"Primitive" is a relative statement. My eyes blurred, my aching back, my wisdom teeth that do not fit in my own mouth, my vulnerability to the sun etc.

What is primitive but a term that we are simply making up? A neanderthal or homosapien would be far more advanced than those before them. And so far as anyone is aware, homo sapiens sapiens is not the end of the line. God could very well still be "perfecting" us, the only difference between now and 10,000 years ago, is that we are aware of our development. But there is no reason to believe God has stopped the "perfecting" process.

Did God not teach Adam (as) many things while with him, according to your Scriptures? It is a big misconception that we evolved from them. Even peopl from 10,000 years ago had intelligence and could speak dialect and the same capabilities as us today. God honoured and raised the status of Humanity. Tell me, why would God tell Angels to bow to a caveman?

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:salam:

You've got it wrong. Making these assumptions about scientists in general is wrong. Many believers are scientists. We all ask the questions: what,when, who, why, and how. Key to recognising the abnormal is knowing the normal. To know it, is to understand it. Part of understanding who we are is to look at our past and ancestors- where do we come from? What teaches us about adam and eve are our parents. No different than a pagan teaching his child about their own Gods. You need to venture, read and research independently. Otherwise, your beliefs lack validity.  

Nothing I've come across so far in the quran, has directly contradicted our knowledge today. The way the quran speaks, satisfies every time. I say this because, when you google 'contradicting/false claims by the quran' you can argue and explain every point raised. I therefore feel, the words used by the quran were intentionally chosen to suit all times. For example, I recall the verse concerning semen production. I don't wish to explore it in detail (for obvious reasons), but you can research it independently and see for yourself. The more knowledge you acquire the more likely you are to find a different meaning. How you understand the quran today, differs to the way it was understood by a common man long ago. So it's important to learn. Growing up my mother always taught us that learning and education was one of the best forms of worship. 

Our understanding of the quran isn't superior to our ancestors', nor is theirs' better than our own. We have our strengths/weaknesses, and so do they. 

With regards to adam, neaderthals and homosapiens, if you do a little more research you'll come to know of other human-like species competing for our niche. I'm more curious about how humans won the survival game. Was it really down to intelligence or were we extremely destructive? etc. 

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Scientists generally claim that we originate from Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens but that is actually incorrect on Islamic beliefs given the fact that Adam (as) wasnt a caveman and he was a Prophet whom Allah taught him many things and that knowledge spread on future generations. Even people from ten thousand years ago had impressive intelligence and were more advanced than people today. You forget that these are theories and not facts. 

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2 hours ago, yusur317 said:

:salam:

You've got it wrong. Making these assumptions about scientists in general is wrong. Many believers are scientists. We all ask the questions: what,when, who, why, and how. Key to recognising the abnormal is knowing the normal. To know it, is to understand it. Part of understanding who we are is to look at our past and ancestors- where do we come from? What teaches us about adam and eve are our parents. No different than a pagan teaching his child about their own Gods. You need to venture, read and research independently. Otherwise, your beliefs lack validity.  

Nothing I've come across so far in the quran, has directly contradicted our knowledge today. The way the quran speaks, satisfies every time. I say this because, when you google 'contradicting/false claims by the quran' you can argue and explain every point raised. I therefore feel, the words used by the quran were intentionally chosen to suit all times. For example, I recall the verse concerning semen production. I don't wish to explore it in detail (for obvious reasons), but you can research it independently and see for yourself. The more knowledge you acquire the more likely you are to find a different meaning. How you understand the quran today, differs to the way it was understood by a common man long ago. So it's important to learn. Growing up my mother always taught us that learning and education was one of the best forms of worship. 

Our understanding of the quran isn't superior to our ancestors', nor is theirs' better than our own. We have our strengths/weaknesses, and so do they. 

With regards to adam, neaderthals and homosapiens, if you do a little more research you'll come to know of other human-like species competing for our niche. I'm more curious about how humans won the survival game. Was it really down to intelligence or were we extremely destructive? etc. 

The Darwinian/Evolution theory can be discarded by the scientific community at any time.

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1 hour ago, M.IB said:

The Darwinian/Evolution theory can be discarded by the scientific community at any time.

Most certainly. First Scientists claimed that we originated from Apes. Then now Scientists claim that Apes evolved from previously being Neanderthals. All these keep causing mass confusion, lack of faith in Allah and lack of satisfaction. 

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:salam:

We have a common ancestor with apes, but we have not evolved from any species alive today. Phrasing this appropriately is key. I can recall two cousins humans have: the neanderthal and denisovan. But I needed to do some reading to refresh my memory regarding the timelines.

The three coexisted outside of africa for over 20'000 years. We shared a more recent common ancestor with them than we do with chimps today of course. Some studies suggest mating occurred between the neanderthals and humans,leaving neanderthal traces in our DNA. This was to explain the DNA difference between europeans and africans. Many other studies however, disagree. Despite our coexistence with Neanderthals, the difference in DNA is minimal. Either way, these deductions have been made through speculation and theories. Our data is incomplete due to lack of Neanderthal DNA. 

Humans left africa to join their cousins around 60'000 years ago. Neanderthals ceased to exist around 30'000 years ago. We don't exactly know when Adam was created, but we do know that his sons were farmers. Agriculture began developing around 13'000-10'000 years ago (includes crop+livestock). That leaves a gap of around another 20'000 years, before Adam was actually on earth. So if adam was the first human, what about all the fossils we found? How do we explain human vestigiality? How do explain the different distinctive features different human races posses. I can only explain this by agreeing to the notion that we evolved and adapted to possess favourable traits that allow us to survive in conditions surrounding us.  

Still, I do want to be corrected if I've misunderstood or overlooked anything. I'd genuinely appreciate it. I often take an opposite stance solely to expand and explore. I don't necessarily believe in what I write. No matter what science says, I believe in what God teaches us. Our technology and understanding changes over time. We make many mistakes in our observations and calculations. God makes none. He is All Knowing, All Powerful. 

This post actually reminded me, I need to respond to another thread!

 

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16 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Did God not teach Adam (as) many things while with him, according to your Scriptures? It is a big misconception that we evolved from them. Even peopl from 10,000 years ago had intelligence and could speak dialect and the same capabilities as us today. God honoured and raised the status of Humanity. Tell me, why would God tell Angels to bow to a caveman?

Your response does not align with what is known in science. 

And I don't mean to be blunt, but your proposition opposes common descent of living animals. And that is a big deal, and it stands in the face of countless forms of research and discovery and understanding.

youre putting scripture before and in contradiction of human observation. I am Christian but I do not put interpretation of scripture before observed existence. 

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14 hours ago, M.IB said:

The Darwinian/Evolution theory can be discarded by the scientific community at any time.

Uniformitarianism and evolution have done nothing but advanced since the late 1700s and 1800s. These aren't blind hypotheses. They're discoveries that have advanced our understanding of creation. This is why they have been around for hundreds of years and have not fallen as other theories have like Newtonian physics (which isn't truly false either). 

Common descent is not going anywhere. 

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13 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Most certainly. First Scientists claimed that we originated from Apes. Then now Scientists claim that Apes evolved from previously being Neanderthals. All these keep causing mass confusion, lack of faith in Allah and lack of satisfaction. 

People often confuse terms like apes, monkeys, old world and new world apes, pre existing ancestral apes, and modern day mankind (also an ape). Then there are more cladistic based terms like homo sapiens, hominids, primates etc. People often confuse these terms, hence why confusion occurs when people discuss the evolution of mankind.

One is more "lay", like fish. Fish isnt a cladistic based name, its just a name that we historically use to describe scaled sea animals. But more specifically, fish are chordates.

This is why evolution struggles in its acceptance, its not readily easy to understand, same with geology. Nobody just wakes up in the morning and is like "alright time to read a research paper on the fold structure and miocene present deformation within the backarc of the cascadia subduction zone".

And yet, this is essentially necessary to really understand evolution. To really understand, it takes time to sit down and to really dive into the research. And its something that takes years to learn about and to really understand.

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4 hours ago, yusur317 said:

:salam:

We have a common ancestor with apes, but we have not evolved from any species alive today. Phrasing this appropriately is key. I can recall two cousins humans have: the neanderthal and denisovan. But I needed to do some reading to refresh my memory regarding the timelines.

The three coexisted outside of africa for over 20'000 years. We shared a more recent common ancestor with them than we do with chimps today of course. Some studies suggest mating occurred between the neanderthals and humans,leaving neanderthal traces in our DNA. This was to explain the DNA difference between europeans and africans. Many other studies however, disagree. Despite our coexistence with Neanderthals, the difference in DNA is minimal. Either way, these deductions have been made through speculation and theories. Our data is incomplete due to lack of Neanderthal DNA. 

Humans left africa to join their cousins around 60'000 years ago. Neanderthals ceased to exist around 30'000 years ago. We don't exactly know when Adam was created, but we do know that his sons were farmers. Agriculture began developing around 13'000-10'000 years ago (includes crop+livestock). That leaves a gap of around another 20'000 years, before Adam was actually on earth. So if adam was the first human, what about all the fossils we found? How do we explain human vestigiality? How do explain the different distinctive features different human races posses. I can only explain this by agreeing to the notion that we evolved and adapted to possess favourable traits that allow us to survive in conditions surrounding us.  

Still, I do want to be corrected if I've misunderstood or overlooked anything. I'd genuinely appreciate it. I often take an opposite stance solely to expand and explore. I don't necessarily believe in what I write. No matter what science says, I believe in what God teaches us. Our technology and understanding changes over time. We make many mistakes in our observations and calculations. God makes none. He is All Knowing, All Powerful. 

This post actually reminded me, I need to respond to another thread!

 

We dont have any traces of Neanderthal or Homosapien in us. These were not our ancestors. Our humanity is its own existence, we did not originate from their existence. Surely we are similar in DNA structure because they are essentially the previous Humanity, they were the primitive concept of a Human.

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31 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

We dont have any traces of Neanderthal or Homosapien in us. These were not our ancestors. Our humanity is its own existence, we did not originate from their existence. Surely we are similar in DNA structure because they are essentially the previous Humanity, they were the primitive concept of a Human.

Why would biological similarity align with the fossil succession if not a product of common descent?

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5 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

Why would biological similarity align with the fossil succession if not a product of common descent?

Because these were the previous Adams that God created leading up to the final creation of our Prophet Adam (as) . So yes our DNA structure would be the similar because they were also created of the same concept.

Edited by AfricanShia

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38 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

Because these were the previous Adams that God created leading up to the final creation of our Prophet Adam (as) . So yes our DNA structure would be the similar because they were also created of the same concept.

So, let me just take a look at this...

image.thumb.jpeg.9b2f7c7624c24d397e802006a20fa798.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.32800b0ed23670fb70249af1a8e7cf3f.jpeg

I've referred to this before but, let me just see what you think here. So, rather than these varying forms of elephants/horses being related and descended from one another, you think God, created, destroyed, created, destroyed, created destroyed, created destroyed etc. millions of times over until now?

Edited by iCambrian

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57 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

So, let me just take a look at this...

image.thumb.jpeg.9b2f7c7624c24d397e802006a20fa798.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.32800b0ed23670fb70249af1a8e7cf3f.jpeg

I've referred to this before but, let me just see what you think here. So, rather than these varying forms of elephants/horses being related and descended from one another, you think God, created, destroyed, created, destroyed, created destroyed, created destroyed etc. millions of times over until now?

*Sigh* . No, thats not what I think. To be honest the evolution that Darwin claimed to be true doesnt exist. Allah created all species a certain way he didnt evolve a certain species overtime to become another. Im discussing about Mankind. Neanderthals and Homosapiens were wiped out by Allah because they transgressed their boundaries. Also you brought diagrams about Animal evolution just to add. 

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You say that genetic similarity is not evidence for evolution, I ask then, why would genetic similarity align with the fossil succession?

Your response " Because these were the previous Adams that God created leading up to the final creation of our Prophet Adam (as). So yes our DNA structure would be the similar because they were also created of the same concept. "

So, God created previous organisms leading up to the final creation, animals are genetically similar because they were created that way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I provide a diagram depicting the lineages of elephants and horses throughout time and ask for your interpretation. And you didn't really respond.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The most common responses I find to this question, typically involve either rejection of fundamental science (rejection of things like plate tectonics that result in the geologic succession in which fossils are found). Or there is just silence. A shoulder shrug, I don't know, God works in mysterious ways, its a science conspiracy etc.

Meanwhile, if you look at things through the uniformitarian paradigm, it opens countless doors and great depth into our understanding of creation, in ways that people on the outside might never understand.

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31 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

You say that genetic similarity is not evidence for evolution, I ask then, why would genetic similarity align with the fossil succession?

Your response " Because these were the previous Adams that God created leading up to the final creation of our Prophet Adam (as). So yes our DNA structure would be the similar because they were also created of the same concept. "

So, God created previous organisms leading up to the final creation, animals are genetically similar because they were created that way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I provide a diagram depicting the lineages of elephants and horses throughout time and ask for your interpretation. And you didn't really respond.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The most common responses I find to this question, typically involve either rejection of fundamental science (rejection of things like plate tectonics that result in the geologic succession in which fossils are found). Or there is just silence. A shoulder shrug, I don't know, God works in mysterious ways, its a science conspiracy etc.

Meanwhile, if you look at things through the uniformitarian paradigm, it opens countless doors and great depth into our understanding of creation, in ways that people on the outside might never understand.

My interpretation is that species cant morph into a new form of species no matter how many years that species has existed. 

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Hypothetically, If you put down interpretations of scripture and went souly on knowledge of genetics. Species are defined by morphology, morphology is defined by amino acids, and further our DNA. So species are defined by DNA.

If you know, (and we do know this) that DNA changes with time via mutation, the only way to claim that one species cannot change into another, is to claim that something stops change in our DNA.

No such thing, no such stop, exists to the knowledge of any person. On the contrary, DNA has done nothing but continue to change, since we have known it to exist.

Even our own DNA is different from our parents. Granted, its only a very very small amount of change. so much so that, we still look and feel and act and think and often are just like our parents. But that small change, that microscopic change, stays with us. And it goes on to our children who have another microscopic change.

Changes so small that in 1000 years you still wouldnt think there was anything going on. Hence why many people doubt that any changes are occurring at all. Because we cannot see these changes with our naked eye, we might even doubt that mutations themselves occur. But they do occur. And they do further cause morphological change. Just very very very slowly.

-------------------------

Back to the first question though, why would DNA align with the fossil record through time? The geologic record spans a very very very long time, so it captures those genetic changes in the form of morphology of animals.

If we look at shallow rock layers, we only find things like neanderthals, or slightly earlier, primitive hominids, almost human like but not really. the further you look back into the rocks, the more that change occurs. And you can look back further and further and further, until you drive yourself into the obscurity of the precambrian.

 

Edited by iCambrian

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1 hour ago, iCambrian said:

Hypothetically, If you put down interpretations of scripture and went souly on knowledge of genetics. Species are defined by morphology, morphology is defined by amino acids, and further our DNA. So species are defined by DNA.

If you know, (and we do know this) that DNA changes with time via mutation, the only way to claim that one species cannot change into another, is to claim that something stops change in our DNA.

No such thing, no such stop, exists to the knowledge of any person. On the contrary, DNA has done nothing but continue to change, since we have known it to exist.

Even our own DNA is different from our parents. Granted, its only a very very small amount of change. so much so that, we still look and feel and act and think and often are just like our parents. But that small change, that microscopic change, stays with us. And it goes on to our children who have another microscopic change.

Changes so small that in 1000 years you still wouldnt think there was anything going on. Hence why many people doubt that any changes are occurring at all. Because we cannot see these changes with our naked eye, we might even doubt that mutations themselves occur. But they do occur. And they do further cause morphological change. Just very very very slowly.

-------------------------

Back to the first question though, why would DNA align with the fossil record through time? The geologic record spans a very very very long time, so it captures those genetic changes in the form of morphology of animals.

If we look at shallow rock layers, we only find things like neanderthals, or slightly earlier, primitive hominids, almost human like but not really. the further you look back into the rocks, the more that change occurs. And you can look back further and further and further, until you drive yourself into the obscurity of the precambrian.

 

Allah created Prophet Adam (as) from Earth (Clay, Mud). Verily Clay and Mud adapt to certain conditions but they do not completely morph into something else. Allah created all species from Earth, especially Water. If we are created from the same elements then how could we not have DNA traces of similarity? :)

Thats the Science of it.

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5 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Allah created Prophet Adam (as) from Earth (Clay, Mud). Verily Clay and Mud adapt to certain conditions but they do not completely morph into something else. Allah created all species from Earth, especially Water. If we are created from the same elements then how could we not have DNA traces of similarity? :)

Thats the Science of it.

When you're ready to respond to my posts, let me know....

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