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16 minutes ago, Hannah 43 said:

Democratic socialism is like saying democratic rate we get the vote to take other people's property. You can always get people to vote to take other people's things

So you oppose public schools, roads, bridges, government buildings? Those are paid for by taxes, and nobody likes paying taxes. 

I'm ok with people being required to use a portion of their excess to provide for the poor. In an Islamic system it's called zakat and khums. In a secular system it's called taxes. 

But drug addiction is a completely different issue. If a person is unable to contribute to society due to drug addiction, I think they should be made to get off the drugs, and I'm also ok with my tax money being used to help them get off drugs. 

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It's like putting salt on your food little salt is good. Too much salt kills you. The government is supposed to stay out of your life. It is not supposed to rob you of most of your wealth.. Socialism is evil it destroys wealth it does not create wealth. O Allah forgive me please no more politics. Okay more Virginia was destroyed by white racists and black racist and Marxist atheists who all are against the Koran

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1 hour ago, baqar said:

Not really!

Staying by the sunnat of our Holy Prophet (pbuh) and Imams (as) is true Islam, in which case, wealth is not a very good idea.

Jesus put it very succinctly "It will be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven."  

Just think of that!

In the time the Christian profit you got rich by conquering robbing other people's things. People who creating Google Facebook Microsoft. Rich by making things people wish to have. The person who got rich with Hershey bars made you happy

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OPINE:

4 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Me too, I would add one more thing, Strict poverty control laws. Should be illegal to be under the poverty line. It's absolutely unnecessary for people to live under such circumstances and conditions.

 

1 hour ago, notme said:

So you oppose public schools, roads, bridges, government buildings? Those are paid for by taxes, and nobody likes paying taxes. O.K.

I'm ok with people being required to use a portion of their excess to provide for the poor. In an Islamic system it's called zakat and khums. In a secular system it's called taxes. __C__

But drug addiction is a completely different issue. If a person is unable to contribute to society due to drug addiction, I think they should be made to get off the drugs, and I'm also ok with my tax money being used to help them get off drugs.  O.K.

Why are there "working poor" ?

Taxes

You both understand compound interest.

The same effect is with taxes and then topped-off with a sales tax.

In the 1970s there was an analysis widely quoted in the newspapers that showed how the average loaf of bread was taxed 54 times. And bread then was 20-25 cents.

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11 hours ago, baqar said:

Not really!

Staying by the sunnat of our Holy Prophet (pbuh) and Imams (as) is true Islam, in which case, wealth is not a very good idea.

Jesus put it very succinctly "It will be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven."  

Just think of that!

It's easy to pick and choose, but that's not how Islam works. First of all, if something isn't from the Sunnah that doesn't make it discouraged. Secondly, our Imams (as) didn't all do the same thing, Imam Ali (as) used to wear clothes that cost a few dirham, yet some of our later Imams (as) would wear more expensive clothing.

Just as you talk about Prophet Isa (as) - another Prophet called Sulayman (as) was the leader of a magnificent Kingdom with mentions of great wealth.

Islam isn't here to make your life miserable, Islam encourages happiness in life. Wealth is a blessing (ni'mah), not something which is madhmum.

Even if we take the quote which you posted to be true (what's your source?), the message isn't telling you to go impoverish yourself. That's quite the statement. 

Me and brother @Qa'im had a similar discussion days ago regarding this.

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48 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Wealth is a blessing (ni'mah), not something which is madhmum.

And also a test. A very difficult test.

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Apparently the poor always have ideas and knowledge of how to make the world a better place. But somehow they just cannot do it. As writing ideas is much easier.

We all know someone rich -

We all know someone good -

we all know someone bad -

We all know the good believers -

We all know the bad -

We all know someone ill -

We all just know - as always, we all just know .

Our life is so poor that none of the treasures of the world can make it rich; for the sources of enjoyment are soon found to be all very scanty, and it is in vain that we look for one that will always flow. Therefore, as regards our own welfare, there are only two ways in which we can use wealth. We can either spend it in ostentatious pomp, and feed on the cheap respect which our imaginary glory will bring us from the infatuated crowd; or, by avoiding all expenditure that will do us no good, we can let our wealth grow, so that we may have a bulwark against misfortune and want that shall be stronger and better every day; in view of the fact that life, though it has few delights, is rich in evils.

Wealth is good, just like health, use it wisely but none are wise to use it selflessly. We give in order for a return, none ever gave without not expecting something back.

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8 hours ago, E.L King said:

Even if we take the quote which you posted to be true (what's your source?),

1. The source is the New Testament - Matthew 19:24.

If you don't have the Bible at hand, click on this http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-24.htm

2. Imam Ali is also reported to have said "Whoever loves me should prepare a robe of poverty for himself."

Source: The Voice of Human Justice by George Jordach, Page 29   

8 hours ago, E.L King said:

some of our later Imams (as) would wear more expensive clothing.

More expensive than Imam Ali does not mean it was really expensive.

The standard of living had improved.

So what later Imams wore was a little better than what Imam Ali wore.  

That is all.

8 hours ago, E.L King said:

Just as you talk about Prophet Isa (as) - another Prophet called Sulayman (as) was the leader of a magnificent Kingdom with mentions of great wealth.

 If only 2 prophets out of 124,000 were known to have been given wealth, it clearly is for reasons that we cannot easily understand.

But it is certainly not to promote wealth.

Otherwise more prophets would have flashed around their wealth.

The ratio of 2 to 124,000 is insignificant. 

8 hours ago, E.L King said:

Islam isn't here to make your life miserable

No offence, my friend, whether you like it or your don't, Islam certainly discourages wealth.

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33 minutes ago, baqar said:

1. The source is the New Testament - Matthew 19:24.

If you don't have the Bible at hand, click on this http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-24.htm

2. Imam Ali is also reported to have said "Whoever loves me should prepare a robe of poverty for himself."

Source: The Voice of Human Justice by George Jordach, Page 29   

More expensive than Imam Ali does not mean it was really expensive.

The standard of living had improved.

So what later Imams wore was a little better than what Imam Ali wore.  

That is all.

 If only 2 prophets out of 124,000 were known to have been given wealth, it clearly is for reasons that we cannot easily understand.

But it is certainly not to promote wealth.

Otherwise more prophets would have flashed around their wealth.

The ratio of 2 to 124,000 is insignificant. 

No offence, my friend, whether you like it or your don't, Islam certainly discourages wealth.

Lol since when was the New Testament and "the Voice of Human Justice" a hujjah upon the believers? -_-

Actually really expensive clothing, in fact, it is said that it was over 500 dirham. Compared to what is said to be a few dirham in terms of what Imam Ali (as) dressed.

Some hadiths on this manner:

https://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=11545

I am not promoting wealth, but Islam promotes success. Like I said wealth is a blessing and as sister @notme pointed out it is also a test. That doesn't make it makruh, no jurist in history has said this.

You just keep saying it is discouraged but you have yet to post reliable explicit proof which states this, either from the Qur'an or the Sunnah.

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Islam does not encourage asceticism. Neither does it encourage hoarding of wealth. Each person is responsible for how they use what they have been given. 

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5 hours ago, E.L King said:

 since when was the New Testament and "the Voice of Human Justice" a hujjah upon the believers?

As for the quote from George Jordach, I am pretty sure he got it from one of our books.

So it is up to you, i would say.

As sister says, Islam disapproves of asceticism.

But it does not fancy wealth very highly either.

I have nothing more to say.  

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4 hours ago, baqar said:

As for the quote from George Jordach, I am pretty sure he got it from one of our books.

So it is up to you, i would say.

As sister says, Islam disapproves of asceticism.

But it does not fancy wealth very highly either.

I have nothing more to say.  

Asceticism =/= being poor. 

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

It is relevant

And here is more from Imam Ali  

1. 

Don’t be happy with wealth and comfort, and don’t be unhappy with poverty and suffering, because gold is tested with fire, and the believer is tested with trials.  

Source: https://qoia.wordpress.com/tag/poverty/     (6926)

2.

Whoever loves us, members of the Household (of the Prophet), should be prepared to face destitution.

Source: https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/selections-sayings-and-preaching-amir-al-muminin-ali    (Hadith no 112)

The second one is similar to the one I gave earlier,slightly different words.

That is all.

And it is from the Nahjul Balagha. 

Edited by baqar

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46 minutes ago, baqar said:

Whoever loves us, members of the Household (of the Prophet), should be prepared to face destitution.

Being prepared to face destitution isn't the same as being destitute. It means don't be attached to things of this world, not that it's wrong to have and use worldly things. 

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6 minutes ago, notme said:

Being prepared to face destitution isn't the same as being destitute. It means don't be attached to things of this world, not that it's wrong to have and use worldly things. 

Correct.

But as I see it, it also means that Islam discourages wealth, as also indicated by the first quote in my last post.

And that is the point I have been trying to make all along.

That Islam discourages wealth.

it is not a sin to be wealthy as long as you spend your wealth properly but wealth is not to be encouraged.

Edited by baqar

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12 minutes ago, baqar said:

Correct.

But as I see it, it also means that Islam discourages wealth.

All of my adult life I've battled a deeply rooted prejudice against people who were born into wealth. I have a very negative view of people who hoard money. 

But as I read it, Islam neither encourages nor discourages the attainment of wealth. Rather, it encourages people to be charitable. If a person has wealth, he is responsible for using it for good. If he chooses to hoard it up instead of using it, he must pay a tax on it or he is guilty of a sin.

Edited by notme

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13 minutes ago, baqar said:

it is not a sin to be wealthy as long as you spend your wealth properly but wealth is not to be encouraged.

This, what you added in your edit, is what I've been saying all along. So it seems we are in agreement. :)

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Yes, I have acknowledged that it is not a sin to be wealthy.

But that is quite different from encouraging wealth. 

You see, it is very hard for a wealthy person to avoid its trappings. 

And when I said that Islam discourages personal wealth, I really meant its trappings.

Let me clarify.

If you are rich, but you live in a modest lodging without the trappings of wealth, your wealth is fine by Islam.  

But that is never the case.

May be I should have said that Islam discourages the trappings of wealth.

But I didn't because I have never seen a wealthy person who does without them.

Hence I continue to believe that Islam discourages wealth, in the way that we know wealth being used. 

I think I have made my point.

There is no point in arguing till kingdom come.  

So this is my last post.

Thanks for sharing your views.

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And while many Muslims do not believe in books other than theirs, I believe that a lot of the NT is true.

As for  that quote from Matthew that I had given earlier [19:24], I do believe it is true.

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The "Prosperity Gospel" has been a plague on Western Christianity, especially in the US. It essentially says that:

1. Wealthy people have a greater connection with God, have elevated themselves to "chosen" status, and their wealth is well deserved because of something intrinsically right and holy with themselves. 

2. Poor people are poor because they are sinners, have done something wrong, or made bad choices in life. It's their fault alone, or something is inherently wrong with them. 

Now the rhetoric has changed over time (rich people deserve their wealth because of working hard, poor people are lazy). But essentially wealth becomes an indicator of ones status in humanity, even ones status with God. 

But we know most wealthy and poor people are not that way by choice or level of effort -- it's largely inherited. A system of limited economic mobility means that poor people will always stay poor. So the significance of ones wealth to their Godly status is greatly overstated, and misses the mark. 

In the Islamic tradition, taqwa and personal character are not so tightly linked with level of wealth. But you see this kind of thinking seeping even into Muslim communities. Rich people must be good, smart, and faithful, poor people must be lazy, dumb, and sinful. If you don't believe this, look how much more respect the wealthy are given, and who gets preference in marriage searches. 

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11 hours ago, baqar said:

And here is more from Imam Ali  

1. 

Don’t be happy with wealth and comfort, and don’t be unhappy with poverty and suffering, because gold is tested with fire, and the believer is tested with trials.  

Source: https://qoia.wordpress.com/tag/poverty/     (6926)

2.

Whoever loves us, members of the Household (of the Prophet), should be prepared to face destitution.

Source: https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/selections-sayings-and-preaching-amir-al-muminin-ali    (Hadith no 112)

The second one is similar to the one I gave earlier,slightly different words.

That is all.

And it is from the Nahjul Balagha. 

I am sorry to say but you are coming up with strange interpretations. I am not sure how any of the above quotes discourage having wealth - they are simply teaching us how to react to our situations, whether we are wealthy or poor. Nothing about encouragement nor discouragement.

Tell me do you think Islam encourages people to be poor? Do you think people should not aim for success in trade, business, skills, jobs etc...? And what do you make of the recommendations to spend a lot of money on say, perfume? 

I believe you should have said that Islam discourages the trappings of wealth, such as stated above, in that case I agree. Any true believer would rather be a poor but pious believer than to be rich and wealthy but without taqwa and akhlaq.

Edited by E.L King

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