Jump to content

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Where is this?

http://biblehub.com/john/13-34.htm

 

Part of what Paul was attempting to describe in galatians, was division caused by disputes over who could be closer to God through things like Jewish law and in this particular book, circumcision. And we still see this in todays society. A community may feel like, "I work hard to look good in God's eyes, these other people do it wrong, therefore I am better and will be loved more by God". Which turns into "well God doesn't love you as much as He loves me. I am better than you". Which may turn even further into "we need to destroy these others, they are insulting our Lord".

Paul was basically saying, this is wrong. Carrying out the law means service and love to others. Which means not viewing others in some lower class way. Beyond that, people who are saved by Christ, shouldn't be competing with one another in practice anyway, as that would mean that these people are not already saved and have to do something to earn Christ's salvation.  But that's just not the way it is, as salvation has no cost. It is free to those who follow Christ and take on the words in John 13:34.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

In one scenario, 2 women vs 1 man. In another scenario, 1 woman vs 4 men.

How is it not?

Where in the Quran can we find these scenarios?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-08-17 at 6:36 PM, shiaman14 said:

In one scenario, 2 women vs 1 man. In another scenario, 1 woman vs 4 men.

How is it not?

I suspect this is rubbish. Anyway, as I have understood it, according to the Quran 4 femail witnesses equals that of 1 man. So we need Hillary, Merkel, Theresa May, Queen Elisabeth and one more woman to invalidate a testimony by Donald Trump. Most modern folks understand this is not going to funktion today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/17/2017 at 9:10 PM, iCambrian said:

http://biblehub.com/john/13-34.htm

 

Part of what Paul was attempting to describe in galatians, was division caused by disputes over who could be closer to God through things like Jewish law and in this particular book, circumcision. And we still see this in todays society. A community may feel like, "I work hard to look good in God's eyes, these other people do it wrong, therefore I am better and will be loved more by God". Which turns into "well God doesn't love you as much as He loves me. I am better than you". Which may turn even further into "we need to destroy these others, they are insulting our Lord".

Paul was basically saying, this is wrong. Carrying out the law means service and love to others. Which means not viewing others in some lower class way. Beyond that, people who are saved by Christ, shouldn't be competing with one another in practice anyway, as that would mean that these people are not already saved and have to do something to earn Christ's salvation.  But that's just not the way it is, as salvation has no cost. It is free to those who follow Christ and take on the words in John 13:34.

So I read the entire chapter several time. Jesus says, I am giving you a new command. He does not say I am replacing all of God's laws on with one law and that is to love one another.

Between Matthew 5:17 and John 13:34, if I say that all laws + love one another - this is in line with Jesus' teachings.

However if you say 5:17 is to follow all the laws and John 13:34 is calling to replace all laws, there is a clear contradiction in Jesus' teachings. And if we are to believe one over the other, then Matthew was closer to Jesus than John so we should take Matthew's words over John's.

On 8/17/2017 at 9:10 PM, iCambrian said:

Part of what Paul was attempting to describe in galatians, was division caused by disputes over who could be closer to God through things like Jewish law and in this particular book, circumcision. And we still see this in todays society. A community may feel like, "I work hard to look good in God's eyes, these other people do it wrong, therefore I am better and will be loved more by God". Which turns into "well God doesn't love you as much as He loves me. I am better than you". Which may turn even further into "we need to destroy these others, they are insulting our Lord".

Paul was basically saying, this is wrong. Carrying out the law means service and love to others. Which means not viewing others in some lower class way. Beyond that, people who are saved by Christ, shouldn't be competing with one another in practice anyway, as that would mean that these people are not already saved and have to do something to earn Christ's salvation.  But that's just not the way it is, as salvation has no cost. It is free to those who follow Christ and take on the words in John 13:34.

Paul has no right to tell people to not follow the law because some people who follow the law become arrogant about it. Same can be said about people who fall under grace and we see that a lot where people spend Mon-Sat sinning but go to church on Sun to redeem themselves.

On 8/17/2017 at 10:30 PM, andres said:

Where in the Quran can we find these scenarios?

 

 

On 8/20/2017 at 9:47 AM, andres said:

I suspect this is rubbish. Anyway, as I have understood it, according to the Quran 4 femail witnesses equals that of 1 man. So we need Hillary, Merkel, Theresa May, Queen Elisabeth and one more woman to invalidate a testimony by Donald Trump. Most modern folks understand this is not going to funktion today.

So if I show this, will it prove your knowledge (lack of it) is rubbish?

You understanding is limited and limited knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Quran talks about needing 1 male or 2 females on financial issues rulings.
But if someone accuses a woman of sex outside of marriage, then 4 witnesses are required to overrule one woman.

So 1 male vs 2 females and in another scenario 1 female vs 4 males.

I can quote the quranic reference for you but Jesus taught men how to fish so I am going to follow the great Prophet and teach you how to find information for yourself.

Are we in agreement that your knowledge is rubbish?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I may very well have misunderstood many things when it comes to the Quran, so why not just tell me where in the Quran it says that it takes 4 males to overrule a woman, and where it says that 2 women equals one mans when it comes to financial rulings.

In the case of 4 men overruling one woman, can these 4 not be women?

Edited by andres

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/4/2017 at 6:11 PM, shiaman14 said:

Peace and greetings to my Christian brothers and sisters.,

During my college days, I was part of a lot of inter-faith dialogue with Christians. One topic we often discussed was the belief held by a lot of Christians that the Biblical Laws didnt apply to them any more because they were under the Grace of Christ and not under the Burden of the Law.

What do you say?

Salam Shiaman14,

Christians are under the Grace of Christ. Jesus brought the New Covenant foretold by the prophet Jeremiah:

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, saith the LORD.

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people; and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

- Jeremiah 31:30-33 http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1131.htm

God revealed to the prophet Isaiah that the Jewish Messiah (Mashiach/Christ) saves Gentiles who accept him too:

And now saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be His servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, and that Israel be gathered unto Him--for I am honourable in the eyes of the LORD, and my God is become my strength--

Yea, He saith: 'It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the offspring of Israel; I will also give thee for a light of the nations, that My salvation may be unto the end of the earth."

- Isaiah 49:5-6 http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1049.htm

Jesus Christ = God's salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Now, Christians should obey Jesus Christ. While sadly many don't, Christians will be held responsible for their actions. Jesus Christ made that clear in his teachings, including these 2 very important lectures:

Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV)

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Matthew 24:44-51 (NIV)

 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So while yes Christians are under the grace of Christ, Christ brought the New Covenant which includes obeying his commands. (We are no longer however under the Old Covenant, which includes sacrificing animals.)

Peace and God bless you

 

Edited by Christianlady

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, andres said:

 I may very well have misunderstood many things when it comes to the Quran, so why not just tell me where in the Quran it says that it takes 4 males to overrule a woman, and where it says that 2 women equals one mans when it comes to financial rulings.

In the case of 4 men overruling one woman, can these 4 not be women?

[Shakir 2:282] O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things.

[Shakir 24:4] And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors

If you are a genuine man of learning, then you will surely apologize for the "rubbish" comment and admit to your ignorance and knowledge+understanding being rubbish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Shiaman14,

Christians are under the Grace of Christ. Jesus brought the New Covenant foretold by the prophet Jeremiah:

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, saith the LORD.

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people; and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

- Jeremiah 31:30-33 http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1131.htm

Peace and greetings sister @Christianlady,

Are you defining "Covenant" to mean Laws? If so, bring a new set of Laws does not mean you don't have to follow any laws, just follow different laws. It specifically says, "I will put My law in their inward parts,"

2 hours ago, Christianlady said:

God revealed to the prophet Isaiah that the Jewish Messiah (Mashiach/Christ) saves Gentiles who accept him too:

And now saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be His servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, and that Israel be gathered unto Him--for I am honourable in the eyes of the LORD, and my God is become my strength--

Yea, He saith: 'It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the offspring of Israel; I will also give thee for a light of the nations, that My salvation may be unto the end of the earth."

- Isaiah 49:5-6 http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1049.htm

Jesus Christ = God's salvation unto the ends of the earth.

We can accept Jesus as the Messiah for the Jews and even non-Jews aka Gentiles. No issues with that. But this has nothing to do with (not)following laws. For example, I am follow all Islamic laws but not believe in Prophet Muhammad (saw) or even Jesus aka Hz. Isa (as) and my being a Muslim would be an exercise in futility. 

2 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Now, Christians should obey Jesus Christ. While sadly many don't, Christians will be held responsible for their actions. Jesus Christ made that clear in his teachings, including these 2 very important lectures:

Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV)

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Matthew 24:44-51 (NIV)

 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So while yes Christians are under the grace of Christ, Christ brought the New Covenant which includes obeying his commands. (We are no longer however under the Old Covenant, which includes sacrificing animals.)

So you are under Grace and under Law. Perfectly acceptable.

 

Belief leads to practice; practice leads to more belief or better belief; better belief leads to better practice leading to the even better belief. This is how man becomes close to God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

[Shakir 2:282] O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things.

[Shakir 24:4] And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors

If you are a genuine man of learning, then you will surely apologize for the "rubbish" comment and admit to your ignorance and knowledge+understanding being rubbish.

Not so fast. 

 24:4 speaks about witnesses. Does not say they must be men. Nothing discriminating here as long as long as this also goes for men that are being accused.

2:282 is more likely to be discriminating because saying that women has not as good memory as men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, andres said:

 24:4 speaks about witnesses. Does not say they must be men. Nothing discriminating here as long as long as this also goes for men that are being accused.

sure. but your specific issue was the 'discrimination' against women. The verse is clear about if free women are accused, then 4 witnesses.

The Quran uses the word "شُہَدَآءَ". Once again, I will let you go find the meaning of this word and identify if it means men for men and/or women.

1 hour ago, andres said:

2:282 is more likely to be discriminating because saying that women has not as good memory as men.

this is more about expertise than faulty memory in financial transactions.  

1 hour ago, andres said:

Not so fast. 

i expected this answer from you. Simple ruse to deflect from the topic at hand???

Edited by shiaman14

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not familiar with arabic language. Had it meant only men, had this not been clarified in brackets, like so many other places in translated Qurans?

Expertise? Do women have less expertise when it comes to finance? The swedish minister of finance is a woman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 18/08/2017 at 1:30 PM, andres said:

Where in the Quran can we find these scenarios?

As for the weight of testimony being half, it only applies to financial transactions (Q. 2:282).

In all other cases, the words used by the Qur’an are non-gender-specific. There does not seem to be much of a reason to infer an inferior status for women. 

And as I told you earlier, non-Muslim scholars have applauded the Prophet's attitude to women.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, andres said:

I am not familiar with arabic language.

Surely you are not criticizing something you have no knowledge off.

28 minutes ago, andres said:

I am not familiar with arabic language. Had it meant only men, had this not been clarified in brackets, like so many other places in translated Qurans?

Expertise? Do women have less expertise when it comes to finance? The swedish minister of finance is a woman.

 

Lol, these are typical assertions that I have heard before.

Sweden has a female Minister of Finance. Well Pakistan and Bangladesh had  female head of States while chose a nutjob over a woman.

In the eyes of my God, my Prophet and me - all humans are equal. Yet we find that women are paid about 5% - 30% less than men in the US so I guess in the US, women do have less expertise than men when it comes to finance. After all, why else would there be a pay gap?

From 600AD until early 1970s-80s, yes women had less expertise than men in finance and in some rural areas, they still do. All Islam did was prescribe a rule on how to handle a financial situation. While you are fixated on 1 male and 2 females, I see it as 3 people so that there is no tie in a dispute. 

Moreover since this is only a recommendation, people are free to draw up any contract they choose and have whomever as witnesses. 

It is a common and rubbish misconception that Islam treats women as less than men. Different roles is all Islam has prescribed.

 

Edited by shiaman14

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Paul has no right to tell people to not follow the law because some people who follow the law become arrogant about it. Same can be said about people who fall under grace and we see that a lot where people spend Mon-Sat sinning but go to church on Sun to redeem themselves.

 

 

For me, I think your position is irrelevant to a broader question of if a "law of love" is unreasonable.

What law in particular are you referring to that Paul told people not to follow?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

For me, I think your position is irrelevant to a broader question of if a "law of love" is unreasonable.

What law in particular are you referring to that Paul told people not to follow?

Law of Love is not unreasonable. But stating that we are under grace, not law is unreasonable because Jesus said the opposite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Surely you are not criticizing something you have no knowledge off.

 

Lol, these are typical assertions that I have heard before.

Sweden has a female Minister of Finance. Well Pakistan and Bangladesh had  female head of States while chose a nutjob over a woman.

In the eyes of my God, my Prophet and me - all humans are equal. Yet we find that women are paid about 5% - 30% less than men in the US so I guess in the US, women do have less expertise than men when it comes to finance. After all, why else would there be a pay gap?

From 600AD until early 1970s-80s, yes women had less expertise than men in finance and in some rural areas, they still do. All Islam did was prescribe a rule on how to handle a financial situation. While you are fixated on 1 male and 2 females, I see it as 3 people so that there is no tie in a dispute. 

Moreover since this is only a recommendation, people are free to draw up any contract they choose and have whomever as witnesses. 

It is a common and rubbish misconception that Islam treats women as less than men. Different roles is all Islam has prescribed.

 

If it is only a recomendation that fitted Muhammeds society, I have no objections. Laws must change to fit conditions. Also those in the Quran and Bible.

Gender roles change. In Talebanland where girls are forbidden to go to school, of course there will be no femail minister. In countries with well developed education for all, males and femails are equal fit for intellectual works. In fact, in Sweden, among young people of arabic descent, girls do better in school than boys. In all subjects.

Edited by andres

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Law of Love is not unreasonable. But stating that we are under grace, not law is unreasonable because Jesus said the opposite.

If you practice the law in a way which causes strife among people, then it would be unreasonable. But if a person wants to use it to glorify God, and doesn't hold it against others, there is nothing wrong with that. That's what I gathered from Galatians.

 

Edited by iCambrian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, andres said:

If it is only a recomendation that fitted Muhammeds society, I have no objections. Laws must change to fit conditions. Also those in the Quran and Bible.

It's a recommendation -  that's it. It fitted a society then and can and does fit societies today. Much like the arbitrary list of 70mph on freeways. Some states prefer 65 and other prefer 75. No matter what recommendation you give, I bet more than 75% people will disagree with you.

As another example, Islam prescribes inheritance laws which are to be followed absence a will OR a person can choose to distribute his / her assets as they see fit in their lifetime. 

Still wondering how this is related to the grace vs. Law discussion other than being a simple ploy to get away from this topic.

Edited by shiaman14

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

If the law causes strife which opposes peace among people, then it would be unreasonable. But if a person wants to use it to glorify God, and doesn't hold it against others, there is nothing wrong with that. That's what I gathered from Galatians.

 

Surely a divine law would never cause strife among people otherwise we can hardly call it divine. 

If there are divine laws that oppose peace and cause strife perhaps the divine laws have been corrupted by man which would mean the Bible has been tampered with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, shiaman14 said:

Surely a divine law would never cause strife among people otherwise we can hardly call it divine. 

If there are divine laws that oppose peace and cause strife perhaps the divine laws have been corrupted by man which would mean the Bible has been tampered with.

Check my edit, I think its a matter of practice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, iCambrian said:

Check my edit, I think its a matter of practice.

Sure enough. I agree with you.

As an example, ISIS practices Islam completely the wrong way. The fault lies with ISIS and not Islam.

Similarly, if some people choose to follow Biblical laws incorrectly, the fault lies with them and not the laws themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

It's a recommendation -  that's it. It fitted a society then and can and does fit societies today. Much like the arbitrary list of 70mph on freeways. 

As I said: It may fit in a Taleban society, but in a modern society it would be, and is, a waste of talent. Girls have no less intellectual capacity than boys. The comparison with speed limits is more than stupid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

As another example, Islam prescribes inheritance laws which are to be followed absence a will OR a person can choose to distribute his / her assets as they see fit in their lifetime. 

Probably those inheritance laws functioned well in the 7th century. However they do not function in a society where women are emancipated. If that is OK with the Quran, I have no reason to criticise the Quran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Still wondering how this is related to the grace vs. Law discussion other than being a simple ploy to get away from this topic.

I do focus on the old laws in this discussion. In my opinion, the tradition of regarding Quranic laws as everlasting, is one of many reasons for the political mess in the Muslim world. As it also has been in the Christian not that long ago. If you feel that questioning these old laws is trying to get away from the discussion, you are misunderstanding my intention. I really only wish to make you come to common sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Sure enough. I agree with you.

As an example, ISIS practices Islam completely the wrong way. The fault lies with ISIS and not Islam.

Similarly, if some people choose to follow Biblical laws incorrectly, the fault lies with them and not the laws themselves.

I think the Key is that you arent necessarily obligated to follow mosaic laws, as they are not a prerequisit for salvation. Its a two part discussion. You may follow the laws of old if you do so in the correct way and glorify God with them. But people, for example the gentiles, were not to be forced to have their privates circumcised, as this wasnt considered an obligation for salvation since belief in Christ and his final covenant is what provides salvation. And considering that it wasnt a practice of the gentiles, it would be conflicting in nature to obligate them to circumcise their genital parts to get to heaven. In this age, people would look at you like you have 6 heads if you told them a piece of skin on their genitals was the difference between salvation and eternal hell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • By the way, do you have any good experience (I don't mean you took a certain module or class in medical school on behavioral health but then became a professional in an unrelated field like cardiology or something like that) or are involved in the behavioral health field? If so then I don't need to lecture you on the fact  that cases like abuse or forcing a certain lifestyle on someone (ironically sometimes there is consent from the other party on the new lifestyle being pushed on them) are not things that spontaneously occur and often times have complex psychological variables behind them.   Your anecdotes may suggest otherwise, but I know of anecdotes where on the surface it appeared that the man was "forcing" his wife to become a housewife and abandon her career. Since from the perspective of some but not all feminist Muslim women they cannot believe that a woman is willing to give up on a career and become a housewife, so they resort to calling the hubby oppressive and insist he is forcing something on his wife. But in the cases I know of if you look more closely without any bias it was evident that there was a decent amount of willing consent on the wife's part and the "force" element was not really there and at most the hubby acted "suggestive" but the whole decision to abandon her career was largely the wife's decision regardless.    And heck even sometimes just as how a husband might backbite his wife to his community and friends to gain their sympathies due to him being sick of his wife, sometimes the same thing can occur in reverse if the wife feels she will gain some genuine sympathy.   Even if a person is your best friend and you visit her house every weekend there are things that you don't know and may not ever know about her marital relationship and that knowing these things may change the picture completely. So I would advise to not rush to hasty conclusions. That is not to say that there are not genuine cases of abuse and force in marital relationships, but that there is no greater epidemic of it due to complexities in relationships. Again, if you are involved or have good experience in the field of behavioral health then I don't think I need to tell you this. 
    • That's exactly the point, I explicitly typed above the concept of a miracle: An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency. Yes, they have been documented by historical excavations, well, some. Are you referring here to the primitive senses? Most of the records of the ancient world, used to think that earth was a flat piece of land/disk. Today this contradicts many laws (e.g Gravity). https://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.com/files/styles/655_1x_/public/earth_from_the_iss.jpg?itok=mDRiVgnr Even refraction of light wasn't known much, other than seeing it, it was not known as a physical concept when light refracts from a plane. Snell's law for example was not perceived by the senses, rather Mathematics through an equation which was: (index of refraction1)*(Sin[theta]1)= (index of refraction2)*(sin[theta]2). Was this through primitive senses? I don't think so. Even the rotation of the Sun, it clearly was never thought it moved, rather that Earth rotates (after the discovery) around Sun ONLY. Solar/Lunar Eclipse defined this. Even the fact that their planetary orbits are not perceived by the senses.  Senses are limited.
    • Yes good! When Dawkin will be sent to Hell, he will feel that someone is playing Hallucination on him. Very good. I want to see him passing these theories there. "Deaf, dumb, and blind,
      They will not return (to the path)." Quran (2:18)
    • Tafakkur is a deed. Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 190:
      إِنَّ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلَافِ اللَّيْلِ وَالنَّهَارِ لَآيَاتٍ لِّأُولِي الْأَلْبَابِ Most surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day there are signs for men who understand.
      (English - Shakir) Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 191:
      الَّذِينَ يَذْكُرُونَ اللَّهَ قِيَامًا وَقُعُودًا وَعَلَىٰ جُنُوبِهِمْ وَيَتَفَكَّرُونَ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ رَبَّنَا مَا خَلَقْتَ هَٰذَا بَاطِلًا سُبْحَانَكَ فَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ Those who remember Allah standing and sitting and lying on their sides and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: Our Lord! Thou hast not created this in vain! Glory be to Thee; save us then from the chastisement of the fire:
      (English - Shakir) You can see brother, dhikr & tafakkur are deeds. Salat (prayer) is also a form of dhikr, Quran is dhikr. Surah Taha, Verse 14:
      إِنَّنِي أَنَا اللَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا أَنَا فَاعْبُدْنِي وَأَقِمِ الصَّلَاةَ لِذِكْرِي Surely I am Allah, there is no god but I, therefore serve Me and keep up prayer for My remembrance:
      (English - Shakir)
    • I am not able to demonstrate all, but I am sure I will try. Ask if you need.
×