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53 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Disagreed. Historians are diverse and there are historians who believe Moses actually really existed

Oh. Ok. Well, I personally disagree and think that Muhammad did actually have scribes writing down his revelations and actions, but that it was compiled much later. The reason I think this is because of the hadiths I have read.

Those historians base their belief on the Torah only. This is not sufficient for professional historians. 

I have no reason to question that scribes did their best to document Muhammeds revelations while he still was alive. How all this happened we know from documents written centuries after Muhammed died. Such a span of time give a credibility problem to parts of the story. Especially where documents do not fully agree.

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On 11/2/2017 at 4:07 PM, andres said:

Maybe not a good expression. As I read the Bible, Jesus obeys God. They are two different beings (in my opinion). But dont ask me to explain in detail. I cannot give a detailed description of their "personalities"

Is Jesus the begotten sonof God? Please explain.

On 11/3/2017 at 4:29 PM, iCambrian said:

This isnt objective, it is a belief.

The objective part I was referring to was Jesus saying some thing. Bible says Jesus said X. Jesus saying is objective. X can be subjective.

 

On 11/4/2017 at 12:15 PM, Christianlady said:

Disagreed. Tradition says that Moses wrote the Pentateuch (with additions from his successor: Joshua). Joshua wrote the book of Joshua, with additions from scribes and his successors, etc.

Peace sister,

The Torah has Moses described in it. Therefore, Moses could not have written at least parts of it.

On 11/4/2017 at 12:48 PM, Christianlady said:

Oh. Ok. Well, I personally disagree and think that Muhammad did actually have scribes writing down his revelations and actions, but that it was compiled much later. The reason I think this is because of the hadiths I have read.

Agreed.

 

 

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3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Is Jesus the begotten sonof God? Please explain.

I do not know what begotten means. The Swedish Bible translates "enfödde son" (oneborn son). Dont understand what this is either, and I do not read Greek. The Bible and the Quran say Jesus had a human mother but no human father. What kind of being is this? Jesus is as far as I know the only being of this kind. I bet the writer of the Gospel and Muhammed did not know either

 

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On 2017-11-04 at 6:48 PM, Christianlady said:

Oh. Ok. Well, I personally disagree and think that Muhammad did actually have scribes writing down his revelations and actions, but that it was compiled much later. The reason I think this is because of the hadiths I have read.

Peace and God bless you

When were the hadiths you read written? 

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4 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

 

The objective part I was referring to was Jesus saying some thing. Bible says Jesus said X. Jesus saying is objective. X can be subjective.

 

Nothing in scripture is objective. Because it is scripture. The only thing objective about scripture is that it is commonly written with ink on paper and bound in leather.  It is not Jesus himself saying anything, it is simply writing of what someone believes he said. He may not have actually said X at all. In a literal sense, he didn't actually say anything being discussed here, as he did not speak english.

Edited by iCambrian

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43 minutes ago, andres said:

I do not know what begotten means. The Swedish Bible translates "enfödde son" (oneborn son). Dont understand what this is either, and I do not read Greek. The Bible and the Quran say Jesus had a human mother but no human father. What kind of being is this? Jesus is as far as I know the only being of this kind. I bet the writer of the Gospel and Muhammed did not know either

 

whatever that makes him, he would still be less than Adam who did not have a father nor a mother.

23 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

Nothing in scripture is objective. Because it is scripture. The only thing objective about scripture is that it is commonly written with ink on paper and bound in leather.  It is not Jesus himself saying anything, it is simply writing of what someone believes he said. He may not have actually said X at all. In a literal sense, he didn't actually say anything being discussed here, as he did not speak english.

I get that. I am not discussing the veracity of the quote in the Bible.

You will find written in ink and bound in leather in the Bible that Jesus said those words (obey law...). that is what I was referring to...

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15 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

whatever that makes him, he would still be less than Adam who did not have a father nor a mother.

By that logic, Muhammed would be less than Jesus. Not sure it works that way thou. 

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11 minutes ago, baqar said:

Hi Andres

Adam and Eve are also one of a kind. They had no father or mother. 

So the authors of the Bible believed. Science has proved it was not so. 

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25 minutes ago, andres said:

By that logic, Muhammed would be less than Jesus. Not sure it works that way thou. 

Based on Christian logic, yes it would.

So do you agree that Adam is greater than Jesus?

 

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2 hours ago, andres said:

So the authors of the Bible believed. Science has proved it was not so. 

You were trying to make a point by saying that Jesus did not have a father.

And that information comes from the Bible.

So when I talk about Adam and Eve having no parents, which is also in the Bible, you talk about science.

You are referring me to science when you are also saying something which science would not accept. 

That is not fair.   

Is it?

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6 hours ago, baqar said:

You were trying to make a point by saying that Jesus did not have a father.

And that information comes from the Bible.

So when I talk about Adam and Eve having no parents, which is also in the Bible, you talk about science.

You are referring me to science when you are also saying something which science would not accept. 

That is not fair.   

Is it?

According to Scientific evidence, Adam and Eve creation story is a myth and homo sapiens a result of evolution. If God started this evolution or not, Science can not determine.

Scientifically it is not possible to give birth to a male if there is no biological father that can contribute with a y-chromosome. If Jesus was a divine being or not, science cannot determine either. But unlike Adam and Eve, few claim he never existed.

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9 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Based on Christian logic, yes it would.

So do you agree that Adam is greater than Jesus?

 

Jesus is a divine being. Adam a human, (but I do not believe he existed)

 

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17 hours ago, andres said:

Jesus is a divine being. Adam a human, (but I do not believe he existed)

 

So you just defied your own logic.

17 hours ago, andres said:

According to Scientific evidence, Adam and Eve creation story is a myth and homo sapiens a result of evolution. If God started this evolution or not, Science can not determine.

Scientifically it is not possible to give birth to a male if there is no biological father that can contribute with a y-chromosome. If Jesus was a divine being or not, science cannot determine either. But unlike Adam and Eve, few claim he never existed.

So Adam's story is based on science but Jesus' story is based on the Bible, correct?

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8 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

So you just defied your own logic.

So Adam's story is based on science but Jesus' story is based on the Bible, correct?

Sorry. Not correct.

Jesus story is based on the Bible. According to all known science, a dead man cannot come to life again. But there is no way for science to test if God resurrected Jesus from the dead. There are many clever Scientists that believe God makes miracles.

The creation story from the Bible can be tested however, and the evidences that humanity did not start with the creation of two human beings is overwhealming. It has taken timr for Christianity to accept this. Today huge churches like the Catholic and Lutheran accept the evolution theory. Europeans by large do. In USA people seemingly are more sceptical. Only a total of 48% believe evolution is the best explanation. I was surprise to see 45% of Muslims accepted evolution. Lowest acceptance had evangelical Christians, Mormons and Jehowahs witnesses.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_of_evolution_by_religious_groups

Edited by andres
Erased some of the quoted

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5 hours ago, andres said:

Sorry. Not correct.

Jesus story is based on the Bible. According to all known science, a dead man cannot come to life again. But there is no way for science to test if God resurrected Jesus from the dead. There are many clever Scientists that believe God makes miracles.

The creation story from the Bible can be tested however, and the evidences that humanity did not start with the creation of two human beings is overwhealming. It has taken timr for Christianity to accept this. Today huge churches like the Catholic and Lutheran accept the evolution theory. Europeans by large do. In USA people seemingly are more sceptical. Only a total of 48% believe evolution is the best explanation. I was surprise to see 45% of Muslims accepted evolution. Lowest acceptance had evangelical Christians, Mormons and Jehowahs witnesses.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_of_evolution_by_religious_groups

Adam's creation story is in the Bible but you dont believe it.

Jesus' miraculous birth is in the Bible but you do believe it.

Can you point me to the scientist who has confirmed Jesus' birth through science?

So if the Bible can be wrong about Adam's creation, how is it not wrong about Jesus. Perhaps Paul made up the myth about the virgin birth or a disciple did.

This whole topic is related to the selective adherence to the Bible by the Christians and you are doing more to prove me right than prove me wrong.

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47 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Adam's creation story is in the Bible but you dont believe it.

Jesus' miraculous birth is in the Bible but you do believe it.

Can you point me to the scientist who has confirmed Jesus' birth through science?

So if the Bible can be wrong about Adam's creation, how is it not wrong about Jesus. Perhaps Paul made up the myth about the virgin birth or a disciple did.

This whole topic is related to the selective adherence to the Bible by the Christians and you are doing more to prove me right than prove me wrong.

Its not so much what is confirmed, as it is, what is negated.

With the story of Adam and Eve, the alternative of common descent is understood and accepted by many.

While with the story of Christ, the alternative is, scientifically, unknown.

Believing in the virgin birth would also call for faith in the unknown. And faith in miracles.

If a person believes in one miracle, why not any and every miracle? If a person does not believe in miracles, why believe in any miracle at all? Why even believe in God?

We all have to pick and choose what we are willing or comfortable believing, versus what we are not.  Ultimately relying on some sort of faith based belief for all matters that are not understood.

Edited by iCambrian

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2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Can you point me to the scientist who has confirmed Jesus' birth through science?

So if the Bible can be wrong about Adam's creation, how is it not wrong about Jesus. Perhaps Paul made up the myth about the virgin birth or a disciple did.

The Virgin birth of Jesus cannot be tested scientifically. Only Mathew and Luke tell the story. Paul was already dead when the Gospels were written and does not reveal any knowledge of it so he did not make it up. 

The creation story in the Bible was written 600 years before the Gospels, by other persons, and from a very different society, so you can very well reject Adam and believe in Jesus. The crucial point is wether you believe God made sure all they wrote was 100% correct or not. Evolution is in my opinion a proof God did not tell the writers exactly what to write.

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2 hours ago, iCambrian said:

Believing in the virgin birth would also call for faith in the unknown. And faith in miracles.

If a person believes in one miracle, why not any and every miracle? If a person does not believe in miracles, why believe in any miracle at all? Why even believe in God?

I think there are many good reasons to say Marks and Mathews (very different) stories are myths they picked up 70 years after the birth of Jesus. Not believing they were right concerning this miracle, does not necessarily disqualify their reports of other miracles. 

Edited by andres

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On 11/4/2017 at 2:54 PM, andres said:

Those historians base their belief on the Torah only. This is not sufficient for professional historians.

Salam Andres,

What is your definition of a professional historian? Thanks. (My definition of a professional historian is a person whose profession is historian, and there are professional historians who believe Moses existed.)

Out of curiosity, why do you believe in God if you don't believe Moses existed? If I did not believe Moses existed, I would be an Atheist.

Quote

I have no reason to question that scribes did their best to document Muhammeds revelations while he still was alive. How all this happened we know from documents written centuries after Muhammed died. Such a span of time give a credibility problem to parts of the story. Especially where documents do not fully agree.

This is normal before the printing press. However, oral recitation was stronger long time ago than it is now. Both the Jewish and Arab communities passed down their histories via grandparents verbally passing down the accounts of their ancestors to the younger generations.

Peace and God bless you

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On 11/6/2017 at 12:06 PM, shiaman14 said:

Peace sister,

The Torah has Moses described in it. Therefore, Moses could not have written at least parts of it.

Agreed.

Salam Shiaman14,

Moses often wrote in third person because he was writing the history of his people, the Children of Israel.

Peace and God bless you

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1 hour ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Andres,

What is your definition of a professional historian? Thanks. (My definition of a professional historian is a person whose profession is historian, and there are professional historians who believe Moses existed.)

Out of curiosity, why do you believe in God if you don't believe Moses existed? If I did not believe Moses existed, I would be an Atheist.

This is normal before the printing press. However, oral recitation was stronger long time ago than it is now. Both the Jewish and Arab communities passed down their histories via grandparents verbally passing down the accounts of their ancestors to the younger generations.

Peace and God bless you

Lots of Christians like me do not hold God accountable for every detail humans have written in the Bible. The Catholic Church accept that the evolution theory can be combined with a belief in God, even if this means that Adam and Eve are mythical persons. 

When I here speak about historians, I intend those specialised in the old Testament. Experts in Hebrew language that have spent decades studying and comparing the many Books. Here is a 20 min link to a youtube clip that may give a little insight in their methods.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZECezMYug8c

 

Oral methods are not totally unreliable, but they are far from as good as written documents. That was also the reason that our Gospels and the Quran were written. Only 70 years after the birth of Jesus, you find oral traditions as different as those that Luke and Mathew documented. 

 

 

Edited by andres

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1 hour ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Shiaman14,

Moses often wrote in third person because he was writing the history of his people, the Children of Israel.

Peace and God bless you

It is also very possible that someone else wrote it, and therefore it is written in third person. What seems obvious however, is that the part that tell about Moses death and burial was not written by Moses.

 

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On 11/11/2017 at 11:06 AM, Christianlady said:

Salam Shiaman14,

Moses often wrote in third person because he was writing the history of his people, the Children of Israel.

Peace and God bless you

greetings sister - I was referring to Moses death in the Torah. Clearly he did not write that piece.

On 11/8/2017 at 10:23 AM, iCambrian said:

Its not so much what is confirmed, as it is, what is negated.

With the story of Adam and Eve, the alternative of common descent is understood and accepted by many.

While with the story of Christ, the alternative is, scientifically, unknown.

Believing in the virgin birth would also call for faith in the unknown. And faith in miracles.

If a person believes in one miracle, why not any and every miracle? If a person does not believe in miracles, why believe in any miracle at all? Why even believe in God?

We all have to pick and choose what we are willing or comfortable believing, versus what we are not.  Ultimately relying on some sort of faith based belief for all matters that are not understood.

So then if you are going to believe in all miracles, you have to believe in the miracle of Adam & Eve as much as the miracle of Jesus.

On 11/8/2017 at 12:50 PM, andres said:

The Virgin birth of Jesus cannot be tested scientifically. Only Mathew and Luke tell the story. Paul was already dead when the Gospels were written and does not reveal any knowledge of it so he did not make it up. 

The creation story in the Bible was written 600 years before the Gospels, by other persons, and from a very different society, so you can very well reject Adam and believe in Jesus. The crucial point is wether you believe God made sure all they wrote was 100% correct or not. Evolution is in my opinion a proof God did not tell the writers exactly what to write.

So is the Bible 100% correct or not?

On 11/11/2017 at 12:38 PM, andres said:

It is also very possible that someone else wrote it, and therefore it is written in third person. What seems obvious however, is that the part that tell about Moses death and burial was not written by Moses.

 

yes, this is what I meant to write.

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2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

So then if you are going to believe in all miracles, you have to believe in the miracle of Adam & Eve as much as the miracle of Jesus.

I suppose it all depends on the person. But yes, if someone took a literalist approach and did believe that the many strories of scripture were all true in a black and white way, and they simultaneously were consistent in believing all things they viewed as miracles, then yes they would believe both in the literal story of Adam and Eve, and the literal story of the virgin birth.

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