Jump to content
Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī

Salafis think we can see Allah's face...

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

I don't think I am at that point where i could feel him, but yes i do know he does exist and he is out there running this entire universe. 

That is OK. But that is different from feeling. Since to feel some thing needs sense organ. Nearly everyone says that universe is run by Allah. 

And that is  quite different from seeing that universe is run by Allah. 

My all argument is based on seeing the universe is run by Allah not merely beliving that someone said universe is run by. 

Moresoever not only this physical universe but seeing metaphysical dimension of Allah's attributes. And that too by following the teaching of quran and Ahlebayt as and Awlias. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Allah 'face, hands, feets' are mustashabih verses. Perhaps there wouldn't be a confusion if people got Imam Ali (r.a) tafseer. But this verses are metaphorical and not literal and the explanation of them is in the Qur'an. For example - Allah hands are wide open, this verse was revealed when the Jews said His hands are tight, meaning they gave a avarice attribute to Allah, and Muhammad (s.a.w.s) said "No, His hands are wide open" this means He is not avaricious but generous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

Allah 'face, hands, feets' are mustashabih verses. Perhaps there wouldn't be a confusion if people got Imam Ali (r.a) tafseer. But this verses are metaphorical and not literal and the explanation of them is in the Qur'an. For example - Allah hands are wide open, this verse was revealed when the Jews said His hands are tight, meaning they gave a avarice attribute to Allah, and Muhammad (s.a.w.s) said "No, His hands are wide open" this means He is not avaricious but generous.

Just asking - Those people who have this sort of belief that NauzoBillah Allah is Limited to physical form, Are they Muslims ? Or they have left the pale of Islam?? (Ibn Taymiyah Followers)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Just asking - Those people who have this sort of belief that NauzoBillah Allah is Limited to physical form, Are they Muslims ? Or they have left the pale of Islam?? (Ibn Taymiyah Followers)

Anyone who says the shahada is Muslim. But not necessarily guided. Anyone who attribute a body to Allah is a zindiq.

Edited by SunniBrother

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Zindiq means?

In early times it was someone with Zoroastrian view. In later times it was someone going outside of the 'mainstream' dogmas. But I am using the term used by Abu Hanifa in his book Fiqh Al Akbar that means someone giving a body to Allah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, SunniBrother said:

In early times it was someone with Zoroastrian view. In later times it was someone going outside of the 'mainstream' dogmas. But I am using the term used by Abu Hanifa in his book Fiqh Al Akbar that means someone giving a body to Allah.

But this view (of giving a physical limitation) was highly condemned by Ahlulbayt(Imams)(a.s)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

I know. Majority of Sunnis too except Hanbalis.

Why Ibn Taymiyyah teachings are so flawed (a mix of hatred, extremism and illogical falacies)? People (Salafis) call him one of the best Scholars!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Why Ibn Taymiyyah teachings are so flawed (a mix of hatred, extremism and illogical falacies)? People (Salafis) call him one of the best Scholars!

Ibn Taymiyyah spent a lot of time trying to refute the Twelvers xiites and other shias for that matter and he spent a lot of time refuting shias by hating Ali (r.a) and praising Muawiyah. However some Hanbalis before Ibn Taymiyyah praised Yazid (l.a). A lot of Hanbalis had nasibi feelings, it imploded in Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab (l.a). Ibn Taymiyyah was a literalist and he used to read mustashabih verses as literal sense. He also hated Christians and Jews, he also hated sufis and even insulted scholars of the Ahl al Sunnah who narrated hadiths pro - Ahl al Bayt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Ibn Taymiyyah spent a lot of time trying to refute the Twelvers xiites and other shias for that matter and he spent a lot of time refuting shias by hating Ali (r.a) and praising Muawiyah. However some Hanbalis before Ibn Taymiyyah praised Yazid (l.a). A lot of Hanbalis had nasibi feelings, it imploded in Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab (l.a). Ibn Taymiyyah was a literalist and he used to read mustashabih verses as literal sense. He also hated Christians and Jews, he also hated sufis and even insulted scholars of the Ahl al Sunnah who narrated hadiths pro - Ahl al Bayt.

Yes that is true. Wahhabis and salafis used all types of violence and Propaganda to crush and demonise sofis. And second unfortunate fact is common sunnis too favour the salafi ideology against sofis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Ibn Taymiyyah spent a lot of time trying to refute the Twelvers xiites and other shias for that matter and he spent a lot of time refuting shias by hating Ali (r.a) and praising Muawiyah. However some Hanbalis before Ibn Taymiyyah praised Yazid (l.a). A lot of Hanbalis had nasibi feelings, it imploded in Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab (l.a). Ibn Taymiyyah was a literalist and he used to read mustashabih verses as literal sense. He also hated Christians and Jews, he also hated sufis and even insulted scholars of the Ahl al Sunnah who narrated hadiths pro - Ahl al Bayt.

So he is not a scholar. Just a hate monger and an extremist?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

So he is not a scholar. Just a hate monger and an extremist?

He was a scholar in the traditional sense. But certainly he was a hate monger and extremists. I feel bad to those who believe all scholars are honest and infallible. But if you're curious of why Ibn Taymiyyah was the way he was make a research on other Hanbalis before him and you'll see he was not the first hate monger. Plus he was bias towards other madhabs, that should raise the red flag.

Edited by SunniBrother

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/4/2017 at 0:44 PM, Munzir Ahmed said:

I have a simple question.

If Allah HIMSELF wants then can we see Him in hereafter? May be in some other way which we have never seen, as Allah wants. Because He is image-less and there is nothing like Him.

And I am not a wahabi.

No proper answer yet.

 

3 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

I know. Majority of Sunnis too except Hanbalis.

Hanbalis? You mean Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal. Can you quote him saying Allah swt has a body like us (naoozbillah)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

No proper answer yet.

 

Hanbalis? You mean Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal. Can you quote him saying Allah swt has a body like us (naoozbillah)?

No, I cannot quote Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal giving a body because he didn't. But I can quote his students giving Allah a body.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

No proper answer yet.

 

Hanbalis? You mean Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal. Can you quote him saying Allah swt has a body like us (naoozbillah)?

Allah can be seen only by the certainty of Heart and not these weak eyes than can't tolerate even the brightness of His Creation. 

And if you can see Allah then you give Him a shape/ form.

Also if He can be seen He gets limited to be Seen.

Since He is above all these. Exalted He is. Don't ever try to put Allah in the frame of Creation. Like Seeing, talking etc. All these are Symbolic. Not literal. When Allah wanted to speak to Moses(a.s) then he didn't spoke him directly. He chose a means to do it. A burning bush!

You can see Allah, talk to Him through the means. And that means is your Heart. Purify it and you will be in Divine Unity.

Please come out of literalism and Narcissism. Don't uphold all your opinions, Try to Learn from others too.

 

And you have no right to say - "if He wishes to be seen". Well How can a creation know what his God wishes?? 

Stay away from attributing personal ideas (that many scholars did) to Allah. Exalted is He.

Edited by Waseem162

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/6/2017 at 10:34 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

No proper answer yet.

 

Hanbalis? You mean Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal. Can you quote him saying Allah swt has a body like us (naoozbillah)?

Read Page Number 22.

See how Prophet refuted him with logic.

Your belief in seeing God is same as that of a Non believer and that of Bani Israel to Musa(a.s).

https://www.al-islam.org/printpdf/book/export/html/29900

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

No, I cannot quote Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal giving a body because he didn't. But I can quote his students giving Allah a body.

Then why you are calling such people as hanbali. Hanbalis are those who follow Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal's school of thought.

PLz quote some of his students.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Waseem162 said:

Allah can be seen only by the certainty of Heart and not these weak eyes than can't tolerate even the brightness of His Creation. 

And if you can see Allah then you give Him a shape/ form.

Also if He can be seen He gets limited to be Seen.

Since He is above all these. Exalted He is. Don't ever try to put Allah in the frame of Creation. Like Seeing, talking etc. All these are Symbolic. Not literal. When Allah wanted to speak to Moses(a.s) then he didn't spoke him directly. He chose a means to do it. A burning bush!

You can see Allah, talk to Him through the means. And that means is your Heart. Purify it and you will be in Divine Unity.

Please come out of literalism and Narcissism. Don't uphold all your opinions, Try to Learn from others too.

 

And you have no right to say - "if He wishes to be seen". Well How can a creation know what his God wishes?? 

Stay away from attributing personal ideas (that many scholars did) to Allah. Exalted is He.

 

7 hours ago, Waseem162 said:

Read Page Number 22.

See how Prophet refuted him with logic.

Your belief in seeing God is same as that of a Non believer and that of Bani Israel to Musa(a.s).

https://www.al-islam.org/printpdf/book/export/html/29900

I am not a litralist brother. I clearly said.

On 9/6/2017 at 10:04 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

If Allah HIMSELF wants then can we see Him in hereafter? May be in some other way which we have never seen, as Allah wants. Because He is image-less and there is nothing like Him.

And I am not a wahabi.

 

My question was with respect to hereafter not in this world. In hereafter there will be many surprises for us which we had never seen before. Jannah is also a never seen before place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

 

I am not a litralist brother. I clearly said.

 

My question was with respect to hereafter not in this world. In hereafter there will be many surprises for us which we had never seen before. Jannah is also a never seen before place.

You know it that Allah doesn't goes into change of State. He is Always What He is. Exalted is He.

And Prophet(s) went to Meraj. Only creation can be seen He only saw that.

How can you even think that Allah can be seen? Nauzolbillah. Its a kind of giving attributes of Allah.

And as I said, Allah has no Bada (change) in him. So if you can't see him in this World, you can't see him ever!

If he was to be seen then this had been the easiest verification of His existence. But Exalted He is.

He is beyond vision and Talk. Beyond Time and Space. Beyond Feelings and Emotions.

Allah O Alkbar - Allah can't be Described.

And you are describing Him in one way.

Who came and told you that you'll see such and such in Jannah?

Ibn Taymiyah has done a lot of absurdities in this. I hope you're not his follower as you said I'm not a literalist.

Hadiths from our Imam have clearly condemned such assumptions.

I have said what needed to be said. Now if you believe that what you said is correct then go on brother, you are actually violating Allah o Akbar.

Edited by Waseem162

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

`Ali b. Ibrahim from al-`Abbas b. Ma`ruf from Ibn Abi Najran from Hammad b. `Uthman from `Abd ur-Rahim `Atik al-Qasir. He said: I wrote, by the hand of `Abd ul-Malik b. A`yan, to Abu `Abdillah (as): There is a people in `Iraq that are attributing to Allah form and lineation. If you deem it appropriate - may Allah make me your sacrifice – may you write to me regarding the sound doctrine (al-madhhab as-sahih) in Tawhid?

So he wrote to me: You asked, Allah have mercy on you, about Tawhid and what others before you have gone to. Exalted be Allah whom there is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearer, the Seer. Exalted be He from what the attributors have attributed to Him, the comparers of Allah to His creation, the slanderers upon Allah. Know, Allah have mercy on you, that the sound doctrine in Tawhid is what has been revealed by the Quran of the atttributes of Allah, `azza wa jalla. So deny from Allah Ta`ala negation (al-batlan) and similitude (at-tashbih). So no denial and no similitude. He is Allah the established, the existent. Exalted be Allah from what the attributors attribute to him. And do not go beyond the Quran, lest you go astray after the elucidation (al-bayan).

In some cases there is even a clear instruction to not contemplate on Allah's form.

ÚÏÉ ãä ÃÕÍÇÈäÇ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÎÇáÏ¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚÈÏÇáÍãíÏ¡ Úä ÇáÚáÇÁ Èä ÑÒíä¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ãÓáã¡ Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÞÇá: ÅíÇßã æÇáÊÝßÑ Ýí Çááå æáßä ÅÐÇ ÃÑÏÊã Ãä ÊäÙÑæÇ Åáì ÚÙãÊå ÝÇäÙÑæÇ Åáì ÚÙíã ÎáÞå

A group of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid from Muhammad b. Abd ul-Hamid from al-`Ala b. Razin from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu Ja`far (as). He said: Beware of contemplation (tafakkur, thinking, speculation) about Allah. When you intend to regard His greatness, then look to the greatness of His Creation.

 

`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Muhammad b. Yahya al-Khath`ami from Abd ur-Rahman b. `Atik al-Qasir. He said: I aske Abu Ja`far (as) about something from the attributes. He raised his hand to the sky and then said: Exalted be the Almighty, one who pursues what is beyond (this) is destroyed.

--

Thereby from the instructions of the Imams (as), we are not to go further in speculation on God's structure or form. For example, in philosophy, there is often talk of whether God is pantheistic, panentheistic, or separate completely from the creation - you cannot put Allah into man made-concepts. Beyond this, we do not go further into what Ash'aris, Mu'tezillites, Salafis and others have discussed with regards to Allah. For example, the Mu'tezillites will say that God does not speak, because He has no body - although we believe no sight can see the Creator, I don't think we'll go so far as to speculate that He does not speak. Another example, the four madhahab are in agreement that the words of Allah are a part of Him (similar to how His knowledge is a part of Him) and therefore the Qur'an is eternal; however we would not divide God like this. Same thing goes for saying that God has body parts like hands, a face, shins, and feet - this is merely an assumption and more speculation, as there is no indication that the Qur'anic description is literal or physical

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • Over 100,000 people (I live in a suburb of a bigger city.)
    • Oh actually I live in a little nowhereville, but it's part of a metro area that just crosses the million population mark. I might have voted wrong. 
    • May Allah bless you and forgive your sins, Tib Al-A’imma: http://www.duas.org/tibb.htm
    • سبحان الله The soul and body are separate of each other, Humans have free will, when they talk ill about Allah, they cannot harm Him, for it is their desire to do so. And We will turn their hearts and their sights, even as they did not believe in it the first time, and We will leave them in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on. Every Angel has a specific task, One obeys Allah alone, One causes the rain, One searches for people that remember Allah, One is upon the shoulders of a Believer for defending him against the Accursed Shaytan, And by Allah, They do not have senses like pain equal to us, But they are limited in knowledge, When Allah calls them for a task, They shall execute His will, But they can fall in misunderstanding the orders, like Iblees refused to prostrate to Adam, He did not prostrate because he felt himself far superior than a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape. I am not such that I should make obeisance to a mortal whom Thou hast created of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape. From this, you know that the human has free will, and it is Allah who guides whom He wills, And you shall understand that this life is a test, from your birth to the final stages of life, Where the Shaytan tries it’s last time to deviate you from the Right Path. And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed. For Allah has made this life a test for the people, He brought Messengers and Prophets to every Ummah, To notify of His Greatness and Mercy, But some wander blindly in their own ignorance, Ignorance in wordly desires, So much, that when the Heavens are shown to them, They believe these are clouds on top of one another.
×