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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

I think you are missing the point I made.  

Forget about Hinduism for a moment.  

I am asking you to consider the theoretical possibility of God choosing to express Himself to a particular people within a particular region solely through a person and not through anything else (except in a secondary way).  In other words, in stead of the word "Allah", there is this actual human being or person whose name is Mr So and So.  What is impossible about this?

 

I would make this point clear to you, If God wishes himself to introduce to people, he would sent his closest man or woman on earth. Among men, they were Prophets and among Women they were ladies of faith such as Sara, Hajar, Maryam, Khadeja and Fatima. God is not creation brother, He is creator. So, taking him for creation is actually gross untruth and injustice. 

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1 minute ago, Sindbad05 said:

I would make this point clear to you, If God wishes himself to introduce to people, he would sent his closest man or woman on earth. Among men, they were Prophets and among Women they were ladies of faith such as Sara, Hajar, Maryam, Khadeja and Fatima. God is not creation brother, He is creator. So, taking him for creation is actually gross untruth and injustice. 

Alright, nevermind, :)

I know God that God is not creation, but I guess no one seems to understand.  It is pointless for me to continue this thread.  

 

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5 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Absolutely pointless and waste of energy bro. 

You are right.  Sorry for wasting your time brother.

 

Please take care

Ma'salama

 

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Just now, eThErEaL said:

You are right.  Sorry for wasting your time brother.

 

Please take care

Ma'salama

 

No, I did not mean that. I mean towards investing your energy in a religion, that cannot lead you and just pervert you. While God loves you so much that He wants you to lift your soul and free from entangles of perversion. I am no one to guide you bro, it is your call. But I just said that there are many people who are wasting our time just by opening debates which leads no where. I am sorry if I hurt you any way. 

You can speak for your religion and I want to learn more. I apologize again ok. 

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3 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

You are right.  Sorry for wasting your time brother.

 

Please take care

Ma'salama

 

However, sometimes, it is necessary for us to know different religions to have better understanding of religions. I am sorry ok. 

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4 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Angels fell prostrate to Adam because Allah commanded it and the Angels were created in a way that they cannot disobey Allah. The Kaaba at Mecca is the holy house. It is directly parallel to al-bâit-ul-Mamur which is the Holy House that is visited by Angels in Heaven. It is the link, our connection to Allah thats why we face that direction. The Kaaba opens a spiritual connection within a Muslim to pray his or her's Salat. The Black Stone is a stone like none other. It was a stone sent down by Allah from Heaven. 

2

About Wahabis being found within Shiasm, I was being slightly facetious about it.  I KNOW Wahabis hate Shias etc etc..

But about the rest of what you have said..this is what a Christian would have said: 

"Christians fell prostrate to Jesus because God (through the tongue of Jesus and using the name of Jesus) commanded Christians to do that. Jesus is the holy sacrament. It is directly parallel to his non-human nature which is also referred to as the Eternal Son of God who is visited by Angels in Heaven. It is the link for Christians to God, it is their connection to God.. that is why they face Jesus's image when they pray and hold their hands up to his image when they pray. Jesus opens a spiritual connection within a Christian to pray his or her's prayer. Jesus in his human nature is a human like none other. But Jesus is a human miraculously down by God from Heaven."

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15 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

No, I did not mean that. I mean towards investing your energy in a religion, that cannot lead you and just pervert you. While God loves you so much that He wants you to lift your soul and free from entangles of perversion. I am no one to guide you bro, it is your call. But I just said that there are many people who are wasting our time just by opening debates which leads no where. I am sorry if I hurt you any way. 

You can speak for your religion and I want to learn more. I apologize again ok. 

No, I was not at all offended dear brother.  I really apologize for wasting your time. :)  

Thank you for spending your precious time to reply to my comments.  May God be merciful upon all of us.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

If God told you to do that then yes.  You must in fact.  

Just answer my question. 

I asked a simple question that as a Muslim can I bring elephants to my house and ask them for help?

 

 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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Just now, eThErEaL said:

No, I was not at all offended dear brother.  I really apologize for wasting your time. :)  

Thank you for spending your precious time to reply to my comments.  

Totally offended, you really made my time worthy as I knew more about my religion's authenticity, I just implied towards those people who try to pervert us. bro, I did not in any way intended towards you. 

What can I say now :( 

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1 minute ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Just answer my question.

I asked a simple question that as a Muslim can I bring elephants to my house and ask them for help?

I don't care whether a person is Hindu, Sikh, Muslim or Jew. Is it okay to do idol worship?

 

Sorry for not understanding your question at the beginning.  

No, not as a Muslim!  God didn't tell Muslims to do that!

Edited by eThErEaL

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1 minute ago, Sindbad05 said:

Totally offended, you really made my time worthy as I knew more about my religion's authenticity, I just implied towards those people who try to pervert us. bro, I did not in any way intended towards you. 

What can I say now :( 

I really mean it brother.  you didn't offend me at all!  

you need to be smiling more and stop being so hard on yourself.  

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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

I really mean it brother.  you didn't offend me at all!  

you need to be smiling more and stop being so hard on yourself.  

Ok, thanks dude. you just relieved me of burden. Otherwise, I was feeling really sad about it. 

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3 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

No, not as a Muslim!  God didn't tell Muslims to do that!

This same God that tells us Muslims to not do idol worship, would never of told anyone to do idol worship.

Put religion aside for a moment, because God is one and it is irrational to think that he intended Hindus to do idol worship.

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8 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

"I seek refuge in the Lord of the Daybreak from the evil of what He has created "(113:1-2)

Does God created the evil? He is the Khaliq of "Kull-e-Khayr".

"And the soul and Him Who made it perfect" (91:7) 

The next verse of this chapter perhaps explains the verse "from the evil of what He has created"

"Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;" (91:8) 

Any deed can be evil, things are not evil. Even the Iblis was created perfect. Evil was his deed of disobeying the command of Allah and his arrogance.  
 

 

8 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

We attribute badness to ourselves only because when we see something bad we are ignorant of its actual goodness (and so we are in fact attributing to ourselves ignorance of the actual situation).  The actual situation is that even the badness we see is, in fact, good and is therefore created by the All-Good and Perfect God Who is not just Good but Beyond Good.... because Goodness is a limitation of Him inasmuch as you can distinguish it from Badness.  Distinction causes a boundary and boundary causes limitation.  

God is so Limitless that His Limitlessness itself does not have any limits from being only limitless.  Limits do not Limit God's Limitlessness.  God is such that He is neither Limited nor Unlimited.  

Would you like to do tafseer of verse 91:8? What is meant by "fa alhamaha fujuraha wa taqwaha"?

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13 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

This same God that tells us Muslims to not do idol worship, would never of told anyone to do idol worship.

Put religion aside for a moment, because God is one and it is irrational to think that he intended Hindus to do idol worship.

Idol worship as we all should understand it is to adore, worship, revere and pray to something that is designated by someone or something that is not itself Transcendent.   

For Chrsitians, therefore, worshipping Jesus is not idolatry since Jesus, for Christians, has been designated for worship by the Transcendent.  

Do you, as a Muslim, think you can worship the Transcendent in it itself?  you cannot!  

You cannot pray to THAT which is directionless, you need a direction!  Therefore Muslims have a Kaba, a "House of God".  You need to call upon a name of some sort because the Transcendent in itself is NAMELESS.   So Muslims have the name "Ar-Rahman" "Rabb", Allah" etc etc

Do you see what I am saying now? 

Edited by eThErEaL

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 Islam maybe one of many expressions of the Absolute, but it not The One and Only Absolute itself (for this is reserved solely for the Ineffable and Unnamable Essence that is beyond even this very articulation of it that I am currently typing out).  

إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللّهِ الإِسْلاَمُ

"Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam" (3:19)

 الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ
"This day have I perfected for you your religion" (5:3)

 

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللّهِ الإِسْلاَمُ

"Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam" (3:19)

 الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ
"This day have I perfected for you your religion" (5:3)

 

So, Islam is God? Is Islam Absolute?  are there two Absolute Truths?

Edited by eThErEaL

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7 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

So, Islam is God?

:) Does the verse 3:19 says this?

It refutes (or perhaps I should use words "not in harmony with") your statement "Islam maybe one of many expressions of the Absolute, but it not The One and Only Absolute itself"

إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللّهِ الإِسْلاَمُ

In case of "religion", Islam is the only expression.

Edited by Salsabeel

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Just now, Salsabeel said:

:) Does the verse 3:19 says this?

It refutes your statement "Islam maybe one of many expressions of the Absolute, but it not The One and Only Absolute itself"

إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللّهِ الإِسْلاَمُ
 

if only Islam will be accepted, it is because even a rock is a Muslim since everything submits to God.  

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2 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

if only Islam will be accepted, it is because even a rock is a Muslim since everything submits to God.  

أَفَغَيْرَ دِينِ اللّهِ يَبْغُونَ وَلَهُ أَسْلَمَ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ طَوْعًا وَكَرْهًا وَإِلَيْهِ يُرْجَعُونَ

"Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek (to follow), and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned" (3:83)

What is the value of "unwilling submission"? and What is the value of "Willingly submission" ?   

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On 8/3/2017 at 2:26 AM, Salsabeel said:

أَفَغَيْرَ دِينِ اللّهِ يَبْغُونَ وَلَهُ أَسْلَمَ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ طَوْعًا وَكَرْهًا وَإِلَيْهِ يُرْجَعُونَ

"Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek (to follow), and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned" (3:83)

What is the value of "unwilling submission"? and What is the value of "Willingly submission" ?   

Even in voluntary submission, a Jew, a Christian, they are all Muslims because they submit to God.  This is why your religion with God is Islam.

In other words, Al-Islam is Al-Islam irrespective of time and place and location.  

Even people of the past, Abraham and Moses (despite their different laws and rituals) are still Muslims.  

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On 8/3/2017 at 1:54 AM, Salsabeel said:

Does God created the evil? He is the Khaliq of "Kull-e-Khayr".

"And the soul and Him Who made it perfect" (91:7) 

The next verse of this chapter perhaps explains the verse "from the evil of what He has created"

"Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;" (91:8) 

Any deed can be evil, things are not evil. Even the Iblis was created perfect. Evil was his deed of disobeying the command of Allah and his arrogance.  
 

Would you like to do tafseer of verse 91:8? What is meant by "fa alhamaha fujuraha wa taqwaha"?

I am not in disagreement with any of this.  I did write in previous posts that God creates only what is good and that evil is ascribed to ourselves only.   

But the point I am trying to bring out is that even if it is said that God creates evil, this should not be taken as something necessarily wrong so long as we understand evil to be something which is a hidden mercy or a hidden goodness.  The very fact that the "evil" in question exists shows that it is good because existence is nothing but good.  

People often confuse amr takwini with amr tashri'i.  

Did God create the evil (with respect to amr tashri'i)?  No

Did God create evil with respect to amr takwini?  Yes.  

Please let me know if I need to explain in more detail.  I think I don't have to since you probably get the point now.

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On 8/3/2017 at 1:54 AM, eThErEaL said:

You cannot pray to THAT which is directionless, you need a direction!

I understand your point. You feel that Hindus worship idols because they cannot simply pray to nothing. However, a lot of their traditions are man made and have very little to do with their scripture. 

For example cows are considered sacred in India because of its gentle nature. Cows are deeply respected and worshipping it in fact has absolutely nothing to do with their scripture. I dare you to find one verse which orders Hindus to worship Cows.Therefore what makes us Human limit god to whatever we like? with our limited understanding.

This tendency of Humans to limit God to an object is destructive. 

We don't worship the holy Kaaba because that is what we limit God to. The Kaaba has a history associated with it and it was based on God's order. The Kaaba is a symbol of monotheism. No Muslim is even allowed to change his direction of worship unless he is unable to find the direction in some extreme cases.

I want to ask you that why does our prayer never get accepted if we change the direction of the qibla purposely? Why is Allah so strict on us when in fact he is everywhere?

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