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26 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Alright.  So if God commands you to kiss a cat then that kissing of a cat is not really worshipping of the cat but worshipping of God.

Right but there's a catch, you see. It cannot be considered idolatry, because kissing the cat because God/Allah told you is obedience and by obeying His command, you are worshipping Him. Now if you kiss a cat thinking it has independent powers to grant wishes or answer prayers, that's idolatry to Muslims 

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4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

If God revealed in a particular religion to bow and kiss something, is that idol worship?  If yes then I would say idol worship is fine.  If God wants you to do that and if you call that idol worship, then I encourage you to do idol worship. :) 

I mean is it okay for me to get a lot of elephant gods and start asking them for help?

I just want to make sure that it is allowed?

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@eThErEaL

I don't understand your point of creating this thread. It's okay if you want to be respectful of other religions(which is good). However there is no point to justify their religious teachings. Hinduism is such an old religion and it is certain that it's scripture has been altered. 

I went to my friend's house who is a hindu. Their worship of God seems very disrespectful to me. I see elephants turned into god. They sing/dance which is their way of worship.

God deserves some sort of respect man. It is very wrong to limit god to a Elephant/Krishna etc

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2 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

No, I don't. You are absolutely wrong about that. 

So, mind explaining how that is not the case?  How do you (a finite being) know God (the infinite)?

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2 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Right but there's a catch, you see. It cannot be considered idolatry, because kissing the cat because God/Allah told you is obedience and by obeying His command, you are worshipping Him. Now if you kiss a cat thinking it has independent powers to grant wishes or answer prayers, that's idolatry to Muslims 

Yes.  Same with Krishna and Jesus.  They are not worshipped, by the Christian or the Hindu (respectively speaking), in their formal manifestations in and of themselves (as limited entities). The Christian and the Hindu recognizes that God is Transcendent and that this Transcnendence needs to somehow be adorned and worshipped through an accessible means.  An accessible means is a formal means.  And it just so happens for them that this formal means is the very person of Jesus and or Krishna.  

When Muslims connect to God they connect to Him through a formal means isn't it?  In the case of Islam, God gave Muslims the Quran. The Quran is used as a way to worship Him.  Muslims utter the Name "Allah" and other divine names mentioned in The Quran.  Muslims have no other way but through these formal ways.  These names of God are limited!  These formal names are forms!  They are themselves a creation!  And yet Muslims need them to approach the Transcendent.  All Muslims know that God transcends each individual Name mentioned in the Quran!  But they have no choice but to use that Name that god Himself has designated for Muslims to use.

It just so happens that in Christianity, the form is the very person of Jesus.  And in the case of Hinduism the formal means is Krishna.  

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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1 hour ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I mean is it okay for me to get a lot of elephant gods and start asking them for help?

I just want to make sure that it is allowed?

 

If God told you to do that then yes.  You must in fact.  

 

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1 hour ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@eThErEaL

I don't understand your point of creating this thread. It's okay if you want to be respectful of other religions(which is good). However there is no point to justify their religious teachings. Hinduism is such an old religion and it is certain that it's scripture has been altered. 

I went to my friend's house who is a hindu. Their worship of God seems very disrespectful to me. I see elephants turned into god. They sing/dance which is their way of worship.

God deserves some sort of respect man. It is very wrong to limit god to a Elephant/Krishna etc

Some will say it is disrespectful to worship God like the way you do...

Some will say, the Quran isn't even sacred and is a bunch of lies.  

.......

my point of opening this thread is because I would like you all to explore the possibility that your religion (Islam and all that it offers Muslims) is at the end of the day nothing but a formal means of approaching-God and it is not God-Himself.  Islam maybe one of many expressions of the Absolute, but it not The One and Only Absolute itself (for this is reserved solely for the Ineffable and Unnamable Essence that is beyond even this very articulation of it that I am currently typing out).  

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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49 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@eThErEaL

I don't understand your point of creating this thread. It's okay if you want to be respectful of other religions(which is good). However there is no point to justify their religious teachings. Hinduism is such an old religion and it is certain that it's scripture has been altered. 

I went to my friend's house who is a hindu. Their worship of God seems very disrespectful to me. I see elephants turned into god. They sing/dance which is their way of worship.

God deserves some sort of respect man. It is very wrong to limit god to a Elephant/Krishna etc

Some will say it is disrespectful to worship God like the way you do...

Some will say, the Quran isn't even sacred and is a bunch of lies.  

.......

my point of opening this thread is because i would like you all to explore the possibility that your religion (Islam and all that it offers Muslims) is at the end of the day nothing but a formal means of approaching hod and it is not God Himself.  Islam maybe one of many expressions of the Absolute, but it not The One and Only Absolute itself (for this is reserved solely for the Ineffable and Unnamable Essence that is beyond even this very articulation of it that I am currently typing out).  

 

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49 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@eThErEaL

I don't understand your point of creating this thread. It's okay if you want to be respectful of other religions(which is good). However there is no point to justify their religious teachings. Hinduism is such an old religion and it is certain that it's scripture has been altered. 

I went to my friend's house who is a hindu. Their worship of God seems very disrespectful to me. I see elephants turned into god. They sing/dance which is their way of worship.

God deserves some sort of respect man. It is very wrong to limit god to a Elephant/Krishna etc

Some will say it is disrespectful to worship God like the way you do...

Some will say, the Quran isn't even sacred and is a bunch of lies.  

.......

my point of opening this thread is because i would like you all to explore the possibility that your religion (Islam and all that it offers Muslims) is at the end of the day nothing but a formal means of approaching hod and it is not God Himself.  Islam maybe one of many expressions of the Absolute, but it not The One and Only Absolute itself (for this is reserved solely for the Ineffable and Unnamable Essence that is beyond even this very articulation of it that I am currently typing out).  

 

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1 hour ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@eThErEaL

I don't understand your point of creating this thread. It's okay if you want to be respectful of other religions(which is good). However there is no point to justify their religious teachings. Hinduism is such an old religion and it is certain that it's scripture has been altered. 

I went to my friend's house who is a hindu. Their worship of God seems very disrespectful to me. I see elephants turned into god. They sing/dance which is their way of worship.

God deserves some sort of respect man. It is very wrong to limit god to a Elephant/Krishna etc

Some will say it is disrespectful to worship God like the way you do...

Some will say, the Quran isn't even sacred and is a bunch of lies.  

.......

my point of opening this thread is because i would like you all to explore the possibility that your religion (Islam and all that it offers Muslims) is at the end of the day nothing but a formal means of approachin God and that it is not God Himself.  Islam maybe one of many expressions of the Absolute, but it not The One and Only Absolute itself (for this is reserved solely for the Ineffable and Unnamable Essence that is beyond even this very articulation of it that I am currently typing out).  

 

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7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

The man speaking might be just as ignorant as Muslims are about Hinduism.  Just focus on what he says about Hinduism....

 

I don;t think the man was totally off!  he did say that Abrahamic faith wants its followers to be a friend to their God. And he wasn;t wrong about "fear of God"   

Well, we are not as ignorant about Hindu religion as this person seems to be ignorant about Islam. Imam Ali a.s says: "If beginning of anything is based upon faults, then it's end is also faulty". So, Hinduism starts with the false notion and look down upon Human beings and values those lowers than him as higher beings. For example:- Just look at the caste system of Hinduism, Barhaman, Vashiyas, Kashtariyas and Sudras. At one time, Shadow of Sudras that overcame a Barhaman, was considered to be a sin by Sudras and they were punished for it severely. I have even not begin to talk about Hinduism when they let their women to get married to trees and animals.

Let me listen, what the speaker says and then I will comment. At this time, I have just begin listening him and in the beginning, I saw that he is anti-Muslims, and is trying to praise Christians not because he loves them but because he thinks that Christians are enemies to Muslims so let us be their friends, which is off course a wrong thought to acquire the favor of Christians. 

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8 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Yes.  So this is where you might be mistaken.  

Do you know for certain that there wasn't a message (in a form different from a Book made of paper or voice) that told its people to worship God in such and such ways?

 

I do not consider that it is possible that God asks people to worship the idols without manifesting it in books. And secondly, why would God says anyone else to be worshiped, while it is his right to be worshiped as Quran says: "It is not fitting for a Prophet to ask people towards them but towards his God".  

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3 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

I do not consider that it is possible that God asks people to worship the idols without manifesting it in books. 

 

Books, like in paper?  you mean without it being manifested orally?  

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Second point to be noted:- he says that In Arya Samaj and Brahma Samaj, it is said that God is all powerful and do not portray Him in shape. So, this is what Islam says. But I think this is going to be contradicted in next couple of minutes. 

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Just now, eThErEaL said:

Books, like in paper?  you mean without it being manifested orally?  

bro or sister, I would like to tell you that oldest manuscript to be maintained in history is "Torah" although it is not in original shape and has been depraved. 

It came in writing form when there was no any thought of making papers and came on "Stone Tablets". That is far far before Ashoka, the King of India. So, whatever God revealed, it had record, although one can argue about how those records got changed by human beings. 

So, there is no evidence of this kind in Hindu religion, if there had been such kind of thing, the scholars would have debated about it's accuracy whether it is changed or not changed but since it does not exist, it is actually fruitless to speak on such issue. 

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bro, that is funny oratory, now, he says that in the same Hindu religion, the people also believe in shape and form of God, instead of God that cannot be depicted. 

Huge contradiction, why would a wise person choose such a relgion that has contradiction in it's main rules of faith. he says that majority of people want God that can be seen ? While in Islam, religion is not controlled by people but by God himself. Why you want to depict a God that you have no power to see and you depict it with things that are far lower than Him. 

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

So, mind explaining how that is not the case?  How do you (a finite being) know God (the infinite)?

I meant no, you are wrong about me and who I worship, my soul is anything but worthy of being worshipped but Allah is the creator of my soul and only He is worthy. I am not an egoist, I don't worship myself.

And for the record, I have barely begun to understand the Infinite but most of us here know that Islam is a formal means to approach God and for us, Islam is the only formal means to approach Him.

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2 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

bro or sister, I would like to tell you that oldest manuscript to be maintained in history is "Torah" although it is not in original shape and has been depraved. 

It came in writing form when there was no any thought of making papers and came on "Stone Tablets". That is far far before Ashoka, the King of India. So, whatever God revealed, it had record, although one can argue about how those records got changed by human beings. 

So, there is no evidence of this kind in Hindu religion, if there had been such kind of thing, the scholars would have debated about it's accuracy whether it is changed or not changed but since it does not exist, it is actually fruitless to speak on such issue. 

Well, I don't have any reason to believe why Divine Expression MUST be in the form of paper and ink.  The Quran in its manifested form is first and foremost in oral form and then only is it in paper and ink.  In fact, the Quran talks about God;s Speech in the form of natural objects (Ayaat) in the Horizons and in your souls.

If Divine Expression can be encapsulated in the form of ORAL and WRITTEN FORM then I don't see why it cannot be encapsulated in the form of a HUMAN PERSON.

Did not Imam Ali (as) refer to himself as the speaking Quran?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

bro, that is funny oratory, now, he says that in the same Hindu religion, the people also believe in shape and form of God, instead of God that cannot be depicted. 

Huge contradiction, why would a wise person choose such a relgion that has contradiction in it's main rules of faith. he says that majority of people want God that can be seen ? While in Islam, religion is not controlled by people but by God himself. Why you want to depict a God that you have no power to see and you depict it with things that are far lower than Him. 

This is the beauty about Hinduism.  Sometimes people don't have an eye for beauty.

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Just now, eThErEaL said:

Well, I don't have any reason to believe why Divine Expression MUST be in the form of paper and ink.  The Quran in its manifested form is first and foremost in oral form and then only is it in paper and ink.  In fact, the Quran talks about God;s Speech in the form of natural objects (Ayaat) in the Horizons and in your souls.

If Divine Expression can be encapsulated in the form of ORAL and WRITTEN FORM then I don't see why it cannot be encapsulated in the form of a HUMAN PERSON.

Did not Imam Ali (as) refer to himself as the speaking Quran?

 

 

True but that Oral form has records as to What God said and what you say has no basis in existing Hindu religion as you have no record as to when did God said Hindus to worship idols instead of Worshiping a God that is impossible to be conceived as having shape like His creation ? 

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Just now, eThErEaL said:

This is the beauty about Hinduism.  Sometimes people don't have an eye for beauty.

But beauty of Islam is that what you say must have basis logically from which all religions are deprived of. 

What you see from inner eye can be a deception and your own wish as Quran says until they have basis logically and rationally. 

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Now, he speaks with "logical absurdity". Which often people make use of to say that if God is all powerful and infinite power, can he become finite ? While it is first principle to know that God is all powerful and of infinite power and not weak so that he come into "finite shape". What will that finite shape offer him which is infinite power does lacks ? It is only weakness and God is not Weak. So, advocates of "Logical absurdities" should know it not to ask God to make himself weak because weakness is not essence of God. 

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20 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

True but that Oral form has records as to What God said and what you say has no basis in existing Hindu religion as you have no record as to when did God said Hindus to worship idols instead of Worshiping a God that is impossible to be conceived as having shape like His creation ? 

I think you are missing the point I made.  

Forget about Hinduism for a moment.  

I am asking you to consider the theoretical possibility of God choosing to express Himself to a particular people within a particular region solely through a person and not through anything else (except in a secondary way).  In other words, instead of the word "Allah", there is this actual human being or person whose name is Mr So and So.  What is impossible about this?  So in this religion God expressed Himself not through the Quran, but through A Person!  Instead of using the word "Allah" in your prayers, you simply use that person (Mr So and So) and you ask that person for anything you want.  Obviously, Muslims don't believe God is the mere name "Allah" do they?  So also the people of that religion don't believe God is a merely Mr So and So.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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