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5 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

No wonder why Hindus don't like Muslims... such aggressive and violent behavior.  

 

 

My question who made idols? 

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3 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Muslims kind of do that......  5 times a day.  They prostrate facing the Kaba (that has a black stone).  

I mean, you will say "we are not worshipping it, we are just facing it".  But it sure does look like worship to everyone else.  

I didn't do that,for myself,Ibrahim did that by an order.

true we don't worship it,nor we ask for gods' forgiveness over it,just direction of prayer.Rather a symbolic meaning.

Edited by Unforgiven

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Just now, Ron_Burgundy said:

My question who made idols? 

Well, from a Muslim point of view

God created EVERYTHING without exception.  If it exists it is created, the good and the bad exist through God.  

The only way you can escape this is if you say "bad" doesn't exist in and of itself for it is the lack of goodness (just like darkness is the lack of light).

 

 

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Just now, eThErEaL said:

Muslims kind of do that......  5 times a day.  They prostrate facing the Kaba (that has a black stone).  

I mean, you will say "we are not worshipping it, we are just facing it".  But it sure does look like worship to everyone else.  

 

Quote

Idolatry is the worship of an idol or a physical object as a representation of a god. In all the Abrahamic religions idolatry is strongly forbidden, although views as to what constitutes idolatry differ within and between them. In some other religions the use of idols is accepted. Which images, ideas, and objects constitute idolatry is often a matter of considerable contention.

We don't go to kabaa and ask him for things or forgiveness. 

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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

Well, from a Muslim point of view

God created EVERYTHING without exception.  If it exists it is created, the good and the bad exist through God.  

The only way you can escape this is if you say "bad" doesn't exist in and of itself for it is the lack of goodness (just like darkness is the lack of light).

 

 

I am not asking you muslim's perspective i am asking you what do you think who created idols? And when you say its a muslim perspective you better quote quran or sahih hadith. 

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17 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Well, from a Muslim point of view

God created EVERYTHING without exception.  If it exists it is created, the good and the bad exist through God.  

The only way you can escape this is if you say "bad" doesn't exist in and of itself for it is the lack of goodness (just like darkness is the lack of light).

 

 

“Those whose intelligence has been  stolen by material desires they worship    demigods i.e. idols.
            
                               (Bhagavad Gita 7:20)

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Bhagavat Gita 7-24: "The ignorant believe that un-manifest Para Brahma (One God) incarnates or takes manifestations, because they do not completely understand My highest, immutable, incomparable, and transcendental existence." 

Bhagavat Gita 7:19-21: "All those who do idol worship, All those who worship demigods are materialistic people." 

Yajur Veda 3:32: "...Of that God you cannot make any images." 

Yajur Veda 32:3: "God is formless and bodiless" 

Yajur Veda 40:8: "All those who worship the uncreated things, they are in darkness, and you'll enter more into darkness if you worship the created things." 

Rig Veda, Vol.8,1:1: "All Praise are to Him alone" 

Rig Veda, Vol.6,45:16: "There is only One God, worship Him."

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50 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

I am not asking you muslim's perspective i am asking you what do you think who created idols? And when you say its a muslim perspective you better quote quran or sahih hadith. 

"I seek refuge in the Lord of the Daybreak from the evil of what He has created "(113:1-2)

Islam doesn't teach of a dualistic God (one god that creates good and another god that creates bad)  or an imperfect God (a god that cannot create certain things that we see..such as a perceived bad thing).  Islam teaches about Non-Duality (just like in Hinduism), that the good and evil is but from the ONE.  When we see something bad it is, in fact, good inasmuch as it exists.    We attribute badness to ourselves only because when we see something bad we are ignorant of its actual goodness (and so we are in fact attributing to ourselves ignorance of the actual situation).  The actual situation is that even the badness we see is, in fact, good and is therefore created by the All-Good and Perfect God Who is not just Good but Beyond Good.... because Goodness is a limitation of Him inasmuch as you can distinguish it from Badness.  Distinction causes a boundary and boundary causes limitation.  

God is so Limitless that His Limitlessness itself does not have any limits from being only limitless.  Limits do not Limit God's Limitlessness.  God is such that He is neither Limited nor Unlimited.  

 

May God cure us of our ignorance.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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25 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@eThErEaL So you think idol worship is completely fine?

Should I start doing it in my house?

If God revealed in a particular religion to bow and kiss something, is that idol worship?  If yes then I would say idol worship is fine.  If God wants you to do that and if you call that idol worship, then I encourage you to do idol worship. :) 

 

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Islam teaches about Non-Duality (just like in Hinduism), that the good and evil is but from the ONE.  When we see something bad it is, in fact, good inasmuch as it exists.    We attribute badness to ourselves only because when we see something bad we are ignorant of its actual goodness (and so we are in fact attributing to ourselves ignorance of the actual situation).  The actual situation is that even the badness we see is, in fact, good and is therefore created by the All-Good and Perfect God Who is not just Good but Beyond Good.... because Goodness is a limitation of Him inasmuch as you can distinguish it from Badness.  Distinction causes a boundary and boundary causes limitation.  

God is so Limitless that His Limitlessness itself does not have any limits from being only limitless.  Limits do not Limit God's Limitlessness.  God is such that He is neither Limited nor Unlimited.  

 

 باب عدم جواز الكلام في ذات الله والتفكر في ذلك ،

والخصومة في الدين والكلام بغير كلام الائمة

وعن محمد بن الحسن ، عن سهل بن زياد ، عن الحسن بن محبوب ، عن علي بن رئاب ، عن أبي بصير قال :

قال أبو جعفر عليه‌السلام : تكلموا في خلق الله ، ولا تكلموا في الله ، فإنّ الكلام في الله لا يزداد صاحبه إلا تحيرا

https://books.rafed.net/view.php?type=c_fbook&b_id=310&page=107

 

 

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@eThErEaL.

Just use the Modal Ontological Argument

Quote
  1. God is that which nothing greater is possible i.e. the greatest possible being (by definition).
  2. It is at least possible for God to exist in reality  That is, whether or not God actually exists in the real world, He at least exists in some possible set of circumstances. So, God might have existed in the real world.
  3. If something exists only in the mind (i.e. does not actually exist) but is possible (in the sense that was defined in 2), then that something might have been greater than it is. For example, a majestic mountain that exists only in the mind (i.e. a nonexistent, imaginary mountain) might have been greater: the mountain existing in reality.
    1. Suppose God (the greatest possible being, from 1) exists only in the mind and not in reality (i.e. God does not actually exist; which is the negation of what this argument attempts to prove).
    2. Then there is a possible being (from 2 and 3) that is greater (than the being in 4), namely God existing in reality.
    3. So it is possible for something to have been greater than God (from 5).
  1. Since God is that which nothing greater is possible (from 1), then it is possible for something to be greater than that which nothing greater is possible (from 6)

By necessity, He would be all-good, unable to lie nor have a likeness, He would not any need for a idol in His likeness nor lie to believers that they worship and honor idol in His Image. It would be contrary and not logically sound that Allah would say or expect people to worship a Idol of Him, a maximally great being who transcends imagination and is the greatest possible being.

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Just now, IbnMariam said:

 

 باب عدم جواز الكلام في ذات الله والتفكر في ذلك ،

والخصومة في الدين والكلام بغير كلام الائمة

وعن محمد بن الحسن ، عن سهل بن زياد ، عن الحسن بن محبوب ، عن علي بن رئاب ، عن أبي بصير قال :

قال أبو جعفر عليه‌السلام : تكلموا في خلق الله ، ولا تكلموا في الله ، فإنّ الكلام في الله لا يزداد صاحبه إلا تحيرا

https://books.rafed.net/view.php?type=c_fbook&b_id=310&page=107

 

 

You should read what Khomeini wrote about those Hadith.  

Let me know if Khomeini (ra) is is also considered misguided in Tawhid.

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4 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

@eThErEaL.

Just use the Modal Ontological Argument

By necessity, He would be all-good, unable to lie nor have a likeness, He would not any need for a idol in His likeness nor lie to believers that they worship and honor idol in His Image. It would be contrary and not logically sound that Allah would say or expect people to worship a Idol of Him, a maximally great being who transcends imagination and is the greatest possible being.

You may have misunderstood the Modal Argument dear brother.

A "maximally great" Being even beyond greatness.  He is not even limited from being only great.  God is great that He is incomparably great.  Now how can something be incomparably great if it is not Beyong Greatness.  

Therefore God is neither great and nor is He not not great.

Edited by eThErEaL

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Just now, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Perhaps,I did but idol worshipping is basically worshipping yourself from my understanding.

Your reality, if you knew it is God.   You do worship yourself every time you think about God because your thinking is part of your soul.  

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Just now, eThErEaL said:

Your reality, if you knew it is God.   You do worship yourself every time you think about God because your thinking is part of your soul.  

Then where did my soul come from? I certainly didn't will myself into existence.

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3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Why do the Angels fall prostrate to Adam?

Because they were bowing to the Creator and His ability to create a greater creation with free will, the ability to choose good or evil.

 

3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Why do Muslims face the Kaba in Mecca when they pray (as if that is some kind of House God lives in...)?

Because Allah commands us to pray towards it.

 

3 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Kissing and rushing towards stone means that whomever Gods assign as noble and leader, he is to be followed and showed reverence.

My answer is the same.

 

3 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Kaba, Adam and Black stone are all signs of Allah imply towards Allah and none of them say that prostrate before us, But God says that have respect for them and worship me. 

Agreed, they are signs of Allah, @eThErEaL. When Muslims start praying to the Black Stone, Adam or the Ka'aba as independent separate entities, it becomes the Islamic definition of polytheism.

 

3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

No wonder why Hindus don't like Muslims... such aggressive and violent behavior.  

How ironic and hypocritical of the Hindus to do so. Ever heard of Indra or Kali?, they are some of the most violent and aggressive deities that I have ever read about in any mythology/religion. Before they accuse us and our religion of teaching us to be violent. They should look at their own religion before casting the verbal stones.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Then where did my soul come from? I certainly didn't will myself into existence.

Well, I didn't say your reality is your soul.  But I said you worship your soul because when you think about God you think of God by your soul.  Your thoughts of God are part of your soul.  You think there is your thought and that your thought somehow magically refers to the a Real God out there, but that is just part of your delusion because even that supposedly Real god is just another's thought.

 

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Because they were bowing to the Creator and His ability to create a greater creation with free will, the ability to choose good or evil.

 

Because Allah commands us to pray towards it.

 

My answer is the same.

 

Agreed, they are signs of Allah, @eThErEaL. When Muslims start praying to the Black Stone, Adam or the Ka'aba as independent separate entities, it becomes the Islamic definition of polytheism.

 

How ironic and hypocritical of the Hindus to do so. Ever heard of Indra or Kali?, they are some of the most violent and aggressive deities that I have ever read about in any mythology/religion. Before they accuse us and our religion of teaching us to be violent. They should look at their own religion before casting the verbal stones.

I am using my phone so please bear with my sloppiness and inability to reply to each paragraph separately.

Alright.  So if God commands you to kiss a cat then that kissing of a cat is not really worshipping of the cat but worshipping of God.

I agree.

So the Hindus and the Christians worship God through Krishna or through Jesus because they believe that God spoke through them and told them to worship Him in that manner.  

Now, whether you don't believe God told them to do that... is besides the point.  Do you at least agree that, in principle, if their belief that God told them to worship Him through Krishna and Jesus is true, then they would not be committing polytheism or shirk?

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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3 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

“Those whose intelligence has been  stolen by material desires they worship    demigods i.e. idols.
            
                               (Bhagavad Gita 7:20)

So, a Demi-God is your limited concept of God that you have (or even your hawa or desires when they are not controlled), not the The Holy Kaba or Krishna or Jesus.  You have misunderstood the scripture.  

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

They are mushrik kafirs whether you like it or not.

Your comment reminds me of:

"We are the only ones practicing true Tawhid, not those Hindus or those Christians".  

The difference between the religions are just with the Shariah (the outward), not the Inward.  Those who have eyes to see will see and those who don't will deny truth in other religions and praise themselves.  Little do they know that they are worshipping not God but their religion.  God will make the religion of Islam say on the Day of Judgement, "Did I tell you, Muslims to worship me (Islam)?...No, I didn't!"

Edited by eThErEaL

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33 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Well, I didn't say your reality is your soul.  But I said you worship your soul because when you think about God you think of God by your soul.  Your thoughts of God are part of your soul.  You think there is your thought and that your thought somehow magically refers to the a Real God out there, but that is just part of your delusion because even that supposedly Real god is just another's thought.

 

No, I don't. You are absolutely wrong about that. 

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4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Why do the Angels fall prostrate to Adam?

Why do Muslims face the Kaba in Mecca when they pray (as if that is some kind of House God lives in...)?

Why kiss and rush towards the black stone and adore it?

 Does the Kaba, Adam, and the Black Stone benefit or harm Muslims?

I thought Wahabism was not Islamic and does not reflect within Shias....  but apparently, it does!

Proof that Wahabism reflects on Shiism please! Wahabis are extremists who blew up the graves of the Holy Prophets grandchildren and are the ones who are bringing an unstabilized Islamic society yet you want to actually claim something like that! Angels fell prostrate to Adam because Allah commanded it and the Angels were created in a way that they cannot disobey Allah. The Kaaba at Mecca is the holy house. It is directly parallel to al-bâit-ul-Mamur which is the Holy House that is visited by Angels in Heaven. It is the link, our connection to Allah thats why we face that direction. The Kaaba opens a spiritual connection within a Muslim to pray his or her's Salat. The Black Stone is a stone like none other. It was a stone sent down by Allah from Heaven. 

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