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Divisions

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On 8/1/2017 at 11:39 PM, kirtc said:
On 8/1/2017 at 11:10 PM, Sindbad05 said:

Prophet says "should"for things which "He likes". And says "Will be" for things which might be disliked or liked by him. So, He disliked it but it was known to him that humankind are so mischievous. 

This is rubbish!!! The narration in that hadeeth in no way indicates the Prophet likes divisions. Besides, even if it were true that the prophet likes divisions that still wouldn't override the command of Allah. The prophet is not superior to or equal with.

Edited by iavswn

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On 8/1/2017 at 8:04 PM, yam_110 said:

:salam: Brother,

Please define 'a Muslim' as per your understanding?

For what reason? My question pertains to  Shia and Sunni as divisions among Muslims and NOT Muslims being a division.

 

Edited by iavswn

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5 hours ago, iavswn said:

This is tantamount to a claim of the Qur'an being incomplete without Hadeeths of the Prophet.

and you disagree? goibg against logic... so i take it you pray your own way?

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@iavswn you misunderstood whole point brother, I said when Prophet PBUHHP uses "Will" it points towards a future event that can either be pleasant or unpleasant to Prophet PBUHHP. Like Prophet PBUHHP said that there will emerge a "Suyani" which is unpleasant for Prophet while Prophet also said: "The occultation of Imam e Zamana will end while Sufyani will be in Syria". So, news of Imam e Zamana a.s is pleasant for Prophet PBUHHP. However, "Should" word is used to define what Prophet PBUHHP prefers and Prophet PBUHHP prefers goodness. Divisions in Islam is always disliked by Allah AWJ and Prophet PBUHHP but that is news from "Ghayab" and even though disliked by Prophet PBUHHP, it will happen and has happened. 

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On 8/1/2017 at 9:40 PM, iavswn said:

How can a Muslim be Shia or Sunni when Allah has prohibited the creation of divisions? 

Qur'an 3:103 And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided.

Arabic: وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِحَبْلِ اللَّهِ جَمِيعًا وَلَا تَفَرَّقُوا ۚ وَاذْكُرُوا نِعْمَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذْ كُنتُمْ أَعْدَاءً فَأَلَّفَ بَيْنَ قُلُوبِكُمْ فَأَصْبَحْتُم بِنِعْمَتِهِ إِخْوَانًا وَكُنتُمْ عَلَىٰ شَفَا حُفْرَةٍ مِّنَ النَّارِ فَأَنقَذَكُم مِّنْهَا ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ يُبَيِّنُ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ آيَاتِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ - 3:103

Note: Shia are not Sunni and Sunni are not Shia so Shia and Sunni are in FACT a division which has been created.

How can a muslim be Shia or Sunni? 

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 42:
وَلَا تَلْبِسُوا الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُوا الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).
(English - Shakir)

This is the answer. 

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10 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

@iavswn you misunderstood whole point brother, I said when Prophet PBUHHP uses "Will" it points towards a future event that can either be pleasant or unpleasant to Prophet PBUHHP. Like Prophet PBUHHP said that there will emerge a "Suyani" which is unpleasant for Prophet while Prophet also said: "The occultation of Imam e Zamana will end while Sufyani will be in Syria". So, news of Imam e Zamana a.s is pleasant for Prophet PBUHHP. However, "Should" word is used to define what Prophet PBUHHP prefers and Prophet PBUHHP prefers goodness. Divisions in Islam is always disliked by Allah AWJ and Prophet PBUHHP but that is news from "Ghayab" and even though disliked by Prophet PBUHHP, it will happen and has happened. 

 

hqdefault.jpg

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8 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

There is no point of this topic when he ignore the most important questions/answers by red herring.

Can anyone here address anything I posted without lying, going off topic, or against Islam? 

Edited by iavswn

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9 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

How can a muslim be Shia or Sunni? 

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 42:
وَلَا تَلْبِسُوا الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُوا الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).
(English - Shakir)

This is the answer. 

It's you who is mixing truth with falsehood.

My original question is: "How can a Muslim be Shia or Sunni when Allah has prohibited the creation of divisions?"

Edited by iavswn
readability

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Dhulfikar,

1. It was claimed Shia don't consider Imams to be greater than Prophets. That was shown to be a Lie. Shia do in fact consider Imams greater than prophets.

2. It was claimed I am mixing truth with falsehood. The person who made this claim parsed my words and took my original statement out of context. Which is  a form of mixing truth with falsehood in itself.

3. Several on have twisted the prophet's words through double speak, ambiguous language, etc. Which is a type of equivocation.

4. The prophet was labeled "Divine". Which is a form of Shirk. Divine means God or godlike.

5. It was claimed I don't understand 3:103 even though my claim that it is in fact a prohibition on the creation was backed by 3 exegesis, one of which was not even provided by me.

6. The legitimacy of Imams has no relevancy to the Question asked or the Ayat I referenced. Everything about Imams which was interjected into this discussion is nothing more than a Red Herring.

7. It was implied Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) created the Shia as he used the word Shia.  No proof was provided though that he used the word in reference to the Modern day Shia or the creation of any division.

8. It was implied I am claiming Shia are not Muslims. Which is a type of strawman attack. Nowhere in any statement here have I ever claimed Shia are not Muslims.

9. There was a dishonest attempt made here to try and turn one of the prophet's predictions  into a command, advise, etc. 

 

Edited by iavswn

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24 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Brother, shall we argue on the minor issues and tag photos each other for teaching grammar ? I do not think that it is a good idea! 

Should.png

Will.png

Did you fail grade school English? :confused: The hadeeth says, "will be". The words "will be" means something  is going to exist or happen. In this case sects. Nothing more!!

 

Edited by iavswn

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Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى himself uses different terms in the Quran for the Believers and they would me Mu'min and Mutaqqi etc. The term muslim only means those who have attained Faith in GOD and His Messenger. 

Now that term is very shallow when you look at it closely. 

Nowadays anybody calls themselve muslim but they have their own differences when it comes to Fiqh rulings and even their Aqeedas differ. 

Every Ayat in the Quran has a context and it isnt as plain and easy to understand but there is always a context. 

When you call yourself a Shia , it is a term used by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى himself for Abraham being the Shia of Noah. 

Therefore, do not break your head about it because this is the REALITY. 

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19 minutes ago, iavswn said:

Did you fail grade school English? The hadeeth says, "will be". The words "will be" means something  is going to exist or happen. In this case sects. Nothing more!!

 

Well, "going to happen or exist", is used for future. And I said you the same that "Should" is mostly used when something is suggested or recommended and Prophet PBUHHP uses it for recommendation or suggestion and Will be is used for any even which may happen which can be either pleasant or unpleasant. While you are trying to evaluate my education background, I have some point to make.

1. You are needlessly arguing because there are plenty of Hadith which say that there will be 73 sects. Secondly, in Quran, it was revealed regarding sects: "[Shakir 6:159] Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did".

2. You asked about whether Imams are higher in status than Prophet or not. We told you about verse where Ibrahim a.s was rewarded with Imamate and he did not have Imamate before that and got it as reward which shows that it was more noble than Prophethood. Finally, I gave you hadith which says that Imam Mehdi a.s will lead Isa a.s in Prayer and never had any Prophet prayed behind any person lower than their status so it shows that Imam Mehid a.s is higher in status to Esa a.s which is a rasool is not it ?

4. You said is there shia word, we gave you reference from Hazrat Ibrahim a.s in Quran. You asked whether Prophet PBUHHP mentioned it, there are various hadith where He PBUHHP has given glad tidings to Shia of Ali. And now you are asking Modern Shia or ancient Shia, I want to ask you whether modern Muslims or ancient Muslim differ from each other that modern shia and ancient shia should have to be different as well. 

5. you must focus on logic and rationality bro instead of teaching us about grammar and just saying us there is nothing that i can see, what else could we do for you ? 

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29 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى himself uses different terms in the Quran for the Believers and they would me Mu'min and Mutaqqi etc. The term muslim only means those who have attained Faith in GOD and His Messenger. 

Now that term is very shallow when you look at it closely. 

Nowadays anybody calls themselve muslim but they have their own differences when it comes to Fiqh rulings and even their Aqeedas differ. 

Every Ayat in the Quran has a context and it isnt as plain and easy to understand but there is always a context. 

When you call yourself a Shia , it is a term used by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى himself for Abraham being the Shia of Noah. 

Therefore, do not break your head about it because this is the REALITY. 

Muslims are believers but NOT all believers are Muslims. The Qur'an very clearly makes that distinction too. The Qur'an labels some believers People of the book, Sabians, Jews, and so forth. 

Edited by iavswn

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24 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Well, "going to happen or exist", is used for future. And I said you the same that "Should" is mostly used when something is suggested or recommended and Prophet PBUHHP uses it for recommendation or suggestion and Will be is used for any even which may happen which can be either pleasant or unpleasant. While you are trying to evaluate my education background, I have some point to make.

1. You are needlessly arguing because there are plenty of Hadith which say that there will be 73 sects. Secondly, in Quran, it was revealed regarding sects: "[Shakir 6:159] Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did".

2. You asked about whether Imams are higher in status than Prophet or not. We told you about verse where Ibrahim a.s was rewarded with Imamate and he did not have Imamate before that and got it as reward which shows that it was more noble than Prophethood. Finally, I gave you hadith which says that Imam Mehdi a.s will lead Isa a.s in Prayer and never had any Prophet prayed behind any person lower than their status so it shows that Imam Mehid a.s is higher in status to Esa a.s which is a rasool is not it ?

4. You said is there shia word, we gave you reference from Hazrat Ibrahim a.s in Quran. You asked whether Prophet PBUHHP mentioned it, there are various hadith where He PBUHHP has given glad tidings to Shia of Ali. And now you are asking Modern Shia or ancient Shia, I want to ask you whether modern Muslims or ancient Muslim differ from each other that modern shia and ancient shia should have to be different as well. 

5. you must focus on logic and rationality bro instead of teaching us about grammar and just saying us there is nothing that i can see, what else could we do for you ? 

:blabla:

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On 8/1/2017 at 3:46 PM, Dhulfikar said:

 I'm clearly referring that there will be and not should be.

Alhamdulillah 

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8 hours ago, iavswn said:

It's you who is mixing truth with falsehood.

My original question is: "How can a Muslim be Shia or Sunni when Allah has prohibited the creation of divisions?"

:) Although you sounds offensive, but I will try to elaborate what I meant once again.

a) How can a Muslim be Shia or Sunni?

Start violating the command of Allah as mentioned in 2:42 and you will see divisions started to evolve. Lets see few examples:

1. Imam Ali (a.s) was declared "Mola" in ghadir. 

2. Fadak 

3. Jamal

4. Siffin etc.

Mixing falsehood with truth or concealing truth:

Ali (a.s) was not declared as mola & hadith of ghadir was a fabricated one. Or saying yes he is mola but here mola means friend only. (Sunni's way)

Or follow the command of Prophet & accept Ali (a.s) as mola just like we accept Propphet (pbuh) as mola. (Shia's way)

b) When Allah has prohibited the creation of division:

Allah has commanded us not to divide (wala tafarraqu), but do you see what causes division? Our actions, our violations causes the division:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 19:

إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللَّهِ الْإِسْلَامُ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ إِلَّا مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَهُمُ الْعِلْمُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ سَرِيعُ الْحِسَابِ

Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.

(English - Shakir)

"Baghyan Baynahum"

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On 8/5/2017 at 11:30 AM, iavswn said:

For what reason? My question pertains to  Shia and Sunni as divisions among Muslims and NOT Muslims being a division.

 

I need to understand your definition of a Muslim. So do you mind explaining?

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9 hours ago, iavswn said:

Alhamdulillah 

Are you a Quranist? And if yes then you will not be taken seriously as Rejecting the Sound Hadith is Rejecting the Ayat of the Quran. Hadith is the backbone of the Quran. Without the Hadith anybody can have their own interpretation.  

Calling ourselves Shia is actually an honour but the title Sunni is made up and nobody used it at the time of the Prophet. 

May Allah guide you and me. 

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13 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Are you a Quranist? And if yes then you will not be taken seriously as Rejecting the Sound Hadith is Rejecting the Ayat of the Quran. Hadith is the backbone of the Quran. Without the Hadith anybody can have their own interpretation.  

Calling ourselves Shia is actually an honour but the title Sunni is made up and nobody used it at the time of the Prophet. 

May Allah guide you and me. 

 I'm a Quranist because I accept commands of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى as absolute?  :confused:

Edited by iavswn

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1 hour ago, iavswn said:

 I'm a Quranist because I accept commands of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى as absolute?  :confused:

Do you believe the Prophet spoke other than the Quran? Or was it only Quran? 

Thanks 

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