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6 minutes ago, Faruk said:

I am pro-Shia because of the tendency that Shia's are in the wrong and Sunni's are in the right. Especially when someone claims we are all muslims directed to Shia's.

If you want to know the truth then you should study history from A to Z.

Not just start randomly somewhere in time as the root of the problem is the answer to all.

I'm not a Sunni. 

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2 minutes ago, iavswn said:

I'm not a Sunni. 

Then why do you tell shia they feel superior and not equal to? The mass propaganda today is in favor of the superiority feeling of the sunni's and there is hardly no critic towards them.

That is where the problem is nowadays.

Edited by Faruk

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16 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Because of your opinion. Thats why I referred you to that Link. Better you read it rather than wasting your time.

If one is that much stubborn not to read and to feel okay to his opinion then he might fall into a pit from which recovery is nearly impossible.

Then you are  judgemental and/or extremely lazy, neither of which is a good trait to have as a Muslim, because I provided the definition for "Imamate" in a previous post.

Edited by iavswn

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11 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Then why do you tell shia they feel superior and not equal to? The mass propaganda today is in favor of the superiority feeling of the sunni's and there is hardly no critic towards them.

That is where the problem is nowadays.

You are a LIAR. I never told any Shia here they "fell superior and not equal to".

Edited by iavswn

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10 minutes ago, Faruk said:


That's not a false allegation or claim though. Shia do in FACT believe Imams are superior to Prophets. Several here have even acknowledged it and admitted to it.

Edited by iavswn

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2 minutes ago, iavswn said:

That's not a false allegation or claim though. Shia do in FACT believe Imams are superior to Prophets. Several here have even acknowledged it and admitted to it.

That's your discussion with Waseem I do not want to get involved in.

What I like to know is what the diffirence is between 'be not divided' and 'do no split yourself up in divisions'.

Edited by Faruk

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2 minutes ago, iavswn said:

That's not a false allegation or claim though. Shia do in FACT believe Imams are superior to Prophets. Several here have even acknowledged it and admitted to it.

Every Prophet is an Imam but not every Imam is a Prophet.

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6 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Every Prophet is an Imam but not every Imam is a Prophet.


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@iavswn Summing up my argument - 

Surah Al-Baqarah, Verse 124

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي قَالَ لاَ يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

124. "And (remember) when his Lord tested Abraham with words (of command) which he fulfilled. He said: ‘Verily, I have appointed you an Imam (leader) for mankind.' (Abraham) pleaded: 'And of my offspring (as well)? , He, (Allah) said: 'My covenant does not include the unjust’."

Three main ideas were the objectives of these verses:

The first aim was that they might provide people with the necessary preparation for the change of the direction of the Qiblah and to inform Muslims that the Ka'bah is a legacy of Abraham (as), the idol-breaker. If pagans and idol-worshippers used it as an idol temple, it was only temporarily and it did not decrease the glorious high rank of the Ka'bah at all.

The second goal was to address the problem of the Jews and Christians who were claiming to be the heirs of Abraham (as) and his religion. These verses, reflecting back on the numerous former verses about the Jews, clarify how very unfamiliar they were with the creed of Abraham (as).

The third purpose was that Arab pagans believed in a special incessant ancestral link between them and Abraham (as). They, too, had to be made to understand that their belief systems and codes of behavior had no similarity with that of Abraham (as), the iconoclastic prophet.

In this verse, at first, it says:

"And (remember) when his Lord tested Abraham with words (of command) which he fulfilled..."

Yes, this verse speaks about the important occurrences in Abraham's life, i.e. his great tests and how he passed them successfully, which illustrates his high rank and superior personality and manifests the worthiness of his being.

When Abraham (as) passed these trials successfully, Allah saw fit to give him a gift as a prize. Therefore, addressing him:

"...He said: "Verily, I have appointed you an Imam (leader) for mankind.'..."

In order that this Divine gift would continue in his seed, and prophethood and 'Imamat' would not come to an end with his death:

“...(Abraham) pleaded: ‘And of my offspring?’..."

The answer to this question was:

"...He (Allah) said: ‘My covenant does not include the unjust’."

That is, I accepted your plea, but only for those of your offspring who are doers of righteous deeds and are pure and sinless i.e. those who are worthy of this rank.


Explanation: What does 'words' mean?

Studying the verses of the Qur'an and noting the great and important deeds that Abraham (as) fulfilled and, hence, being appointed to the position of Imamat by Allah, leads us to the conclusion that the term / kalim-at / meaning 'words', or the Divine commandments by which Abraham (as) was tried, were not those of the usual sort.

It clearly indicates that the tests were not connected with matters of ordinary reasoning or faith.

They can never be considered ordinary tests. The purpose of the 'words' was a series of heavy, hard, laborious, grave duties which were given to Abraham, the sincere pure prophet (as), and he was the only one who had the qualifications to successfully complete them. Some of those commandments were such is the followings:

One trial was concerning the steadfastness of his faith in Allah. Abraham (as) was commanded through a vision in a dream to slay his on Ishmael. When he awoke, he unhesitatingly acted as he was bidden, (37: 105-108).

This indicates that Abraham (as) already knew that he was Allah's prophet and what he saw in the vision was no other than Allah's command. With such a certainty in his mind, he was willing to do, by Allah's command, something that no other loving or sensible father possibly could slay his own son.

In another incident, by Allah's command, he took and left his wife and his infant son to an area of dry land, where no food and water or any inhabitants could be found.

He also stood against the idol-worshippers of Babylon and very bravely defended Monotheism in his historical trial after he had broken their idols. He miraculously held firm in faith and patience when he was thrown into the midst of fire.

Recalcitrating, he emigrated from the land of idol-worshippers, and went to a faraway region in order to proclaim his prophecy.

He did many things similar to those mentioned above and each of those trials was, indeed, heavy and difficult for a man to undertake, but he, with the power of Faith, was able to perform them successfully thereby proving himself worthy of the position of 'Imamat', Divine leadership.


Eligibility for Imamat

Precisely speaking, it is understood from the above mentioned verse that the position and rank of Imamat which was bestowed upon Abraham (as), only after successfully enduring those frequent difficult trials, was above and beyond the rank of prophethood.

The primary sense of meaning of the term / imam / is that of being foremost, but it also has other different meanings including:

A) Leadership in the worldly social affairs of people, (as the Sunnite school of thought believes).

B) Authority over the religious affairs of people in this world (as some others of them have interpreted).

C) Responsibility of bringing religious duties into action, whether it is through the establishment of government in its vast meaning or performing the commandments and ordinances of Allah, and the execution of social justice along with the training of souls, both outwardly and inwardly.

The rank of Imamat is higher than the rank of prophethood, because prophethood and messengership is only a matter of receiving some commandments from Allah and preaching them as glad tidings and warnings.

All of these are true in the case of Imamat, in addition to practicing the Divine ordinances and training the souls of individuals, outwardly and inwardly. (It is clear, of course, that many of the prophets had had the rank of Imamat, too.)

Imamat, in fact, is the position of presenting the aims of religion practically, and guidance is 'attaining the ideal' not merely ' showing the way’.

Besides that, Imamat includes 'Divine Guidance', too. It means the innate quality of the Imam's spiritual influence and the attracting glow of his pureness encompassing, deeply touching, and truly affecting the realm of receptive people's hearts which results in their spiritual guidance.

From this point of view, an Imam is just like the sun that, with its life-giving light, fosters and gives vitality to all living creatures. The function of an Imam in spiritual aspects is the same as the physical function of the sun.

The Holy Qur'an says:

"He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers ", ( Surah Al-Ahzab. No. 33 verse 43).

It is well understood from this verse that the special mercies of Allah and the hidden aid given by His angels can lead the believers and those who trust in Him to come out from 'darkness' into 'light’.

This is also true about an Imam. The innate authority of an Imam and the great prophets (as) who had also possessed the rank of Imamat as well as their vicegerents, had a deep effect on receptive individuals by which they could train them and therefore bring them from the depths of ignorance and error into the light of guidance.

There is no doubt that the purpose of Imamat in this verse is the third meaning, because it is understood from many of the verses of the Qur'an that the concept of 'guidance' lies within the meaning of Imamat, as Surah As-Sajdah, No. 32. verse 24 says:

"And We appointed, from among them, leaders, giving guidance under Our Command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have Faith in Our Signs."

This guidance does not mean merely 'showing the way', because, in principle, Abraham (as) had the rank of prophethood and Messengership for giving guidance in the sense of' showing the way' before becoming an Imam.

However, the Qur'an clearly attests to this fact that Imamat was bestowed on Abraham (as) when he persevered with patience in tolerating the difficulties which he encountered as he paved the path of certitude alongside his Faith, and passed his various great tests successfully. This rank was above and beyond the rank of guidance with the meaning of preaching glad tidings and warning people.

Therefore, guidance within the concept of Imamat is nothing save 'attaining the ideal', cherishing the soul of religion and bringing forth training programmes for the individuals who are prepared to grasp them.

This meaning is cited in an expressive tradition from Imam al-Sadiq (as) which says:

"Verily, Allah, the Blessed, the Sublime, took Abraham (as) as His slave before He took him as a prophet. And verily Allah took him as His prophet before He took him as a messenger.

And Allah took him as His messenger before He made him a confident (khalil). Allah took him as a confident before He appointed him as an Imam. When He had brought all these things together in him: He (Allah) said: 'Verily, I have appointed you an Imam (leader) for mankind'."

The Imam (as) continued: "Since this was something very great in the eyes of Abraham, he said: 'And of my offspring (as well)?'He (Allah) said: 'My covenant does not include the unjust’. "

The Imam (as) concluded: "A stupid person cannot be the Imam of the pious."  This means that only those seed of Abraham (as) who were pure and infallible were worthy of being Imam.

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Prophethood, Messengership, Imamat and their Differences

As it is understood from the verses of the Qur'an and various ideas existing in traditions and Islamic literature, those who were commissioned by Allah had different ranks.

A. Prophethood means the ability to receive revelation from Allah. Then, a prophet is one on whom the Divine revelation comes down and whatever he receives by revelation he delivers to people.

B. Messengership means to preach the Divine revelation, to spread the ordinances of Allah, and to train the souls and minds of individuals through education and acknowledgement.

Therefore, a Messenger is he who is commissioned, by effort and endeavour and utilizing any acceptable and proper means available to him, to invite people unto Allah and His commandments in order to elicit an ideological, convictional, educational and mental transformation in them.

C. Imamat, means to guide and lead people. In fact, an Imam is he who tries to execute, actually, Allah's ordinances by acquiring the power necessary to organize a godly government; and if he is not able to organize a formal government, he does his best in carrying out the ordinances of Allah, both personally and socially.

In other words, an Imam is commissioned to execute Allah's commandments and assure their performance, while a Messenger is commissioned to preach those commandments. Again, in other words, Messenger shows the path but an Imam, besides his other heavy responsibilities which were pointed out before, paves the path for 'attaining the ideal’.

Let it not remain unsaid that it is clear that many of the prophets, like the Prophet of Islam (S), were possessors of all three ranks. They had Divine revelation bestowed upon them. They preached the commandments of Allah and endeavoured in organizing godly governments for executing His ordinances, while they were training the souls of people according to their own religions.

In brief, Imamat is the essence of leadership in all aspects: materially and spiritually, physically and theologically, apparently and hiddenly. Imam is the chief of government as well as the leader of the society, a guide in religious affairs, and a teacher of ethics to train people both inwardly and outwardly.

It is the Imam who, with his mysterious spiritual strength, guides receptive persons forward along the path of inner development, instructs the ignorant ones with his ability and knowledge, and, by means of his government or other executive resources enforces the principles of Justice.

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Imamat, the Climactical Rank of Abraham (as)

In defining the reality of Imamat, it was made clear that a person may become a prophet or a Messenger while he has not been appointed as an Imam. This position demands special eligibility in all aspects.

It is the same position that Abraham (as) attained after successfully passing many difficult tests and proving his genuine worthiness; this being the last step of his development to qualify for that rank.

Some may imagine that the qualifications of an Imam is only that a person ' be worthy and a model’. They do not consider the fact that this condition existed in Abraham from the very beginning of his prophethood.

Furthermore, not only Abraham, but also all prophets and Messengers, had had this epithet from the onset of their calling. It is for this reason that a prophet should be sinless since his deeds are considered as models.

Therefore, Abraham (as), who was a prophet and Messenger of Allah, was gifted the rank of Imamat by Allah after he passed his trials successfully and proved that he was worthy of it.

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Two Questions

This fact should also be noted that the concept of Imamat does not necessarily mean that an Imam forcedly leads all people to the Truth; but it means that people having their own free will, together with their potential for receptiveness and their eligibility, can take advantage of and use the Imam's quality of effectiveness in outward and inward leadership in order to be guided.

It is just like we stated earlier, that the sun has been created to furnish light, heat and energy for all living creatures which have the potential to receive these bounties and are capable of development.

Another question that may be proposed is that according to the above it seems that every Imam previously must have been a prophet or a Messenger and then be appointed as an Imam, whereas the sinless vicegerents of the holy Prophet (S) were not in such a position.

As an answer, we say that it is not necessary that the Imam, himself, be previously a prophet or a Messenger and then reach that position.

When his predecessor had the rank of prophethood, Messengership and Imamat, (such as the Prophet of Islam (S)), the eligible vicegerent can continue executing the duties of Imamat as an Imam. This situation occurs when a new Messenger is not needed, like after the Prophet of Islam (S), who is the seal of the prophets.

In other words, if the process of receiving Divine revelation and communicating all the ordinance have been formerly performed and, only the stage of their execution remains, the true successors of the prophet can continue the prophet's line of execution, and it does not necessitate that he, himself, be a prophet or a Messenger.


The Shi’a believe that the rank of Imamat (the position of a divinely- appointed leader) is higher than that of prophethood and messengership.

Note that here we are comparing the rank of positions and not the rank of persons. As such, two divinely appointed Imams which both have the highest possible position from Allah, may have different ranks. For instance, out of the twelve Imams of Ahlul-Bayt, Imam ‘Ali (as) is the most virtuous. Also Prophet Muhammad (S) is more virtuous than Imam ‘Ali (as) thought they were both appointed by Allah as leaders.

In other words, Prophet Muhammad (S) is has the highest rank among mankind, and is the most virtuous creature of God and the most honored before Allah. The above belief does not undermine his position since Prophet Muhammad was an Imam during his time as well!

Imamat and prophethood are totally different functions though they may gather in one person such as Prophet Muhammad or Prophet Abraham, peace be upon them


 In fact, Qur’an testifies that the position of Imamat is higher than the position of prophethood and messengership. Allah, to whom belong Might and Majesty, said:

"And when Abraham was tested by his Lord with certain commands and he fulfilled them. Then He said: Lo! I appoint you an Imam for mankind.”(Qur’an 2:124).

 وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

As we can see, Prophet Abraham was further tested by Allah during his prophethood, and when he successfully passed the tests (which were the test on his life, leaving his wife, sacrificing his son), he was granted the position of Imamat. This shows position of Imamat is higher in degree than prophethood which has been given to him later after acquiring more qualifications. Degrees are always granted in ascending order. We have not seen any person who got his Ph.D. degree first, and then gets his highschool diploma. At least in the administration of God there is no such mess!

The first degree of Abraham, may the blessing of Allah be upon him, was becoming a servant of Allah (‘Abd), then he became Prophet (Nabi), then he became Messenger (Rasul), then he became a Confident (Khalil), and then he finally became Imam.


He was promised the leadership of the world; he pleaded for his progeny, and his prayer was granted, with the limitation that if his progeny was false to God, God’s promise did not reach the people who proved themselves false.

As we see, Qur’an clearly justifies the Shi’ite point of view in this matter. But again, since Prophet Abraham, Prophet Muhammad, and few others were also Imams, such belief (i.e., Imamat higher than prophethood) does not undermine their position.

Imam means a person who is appointed by God as a leader and as a guide (see Qur’an 21:73 and 32:24) to whom obedience is due, and whom people should follow. Messengers are Warners and Imams are Guides (13:7). Imams are the Stars of Guidance (6:97).

Muhammad (S) was a Prophet, a Messenger, and an Imam. By His death the door of prophethood and messengership was closed for ever. But the door of Imamat (leadership) remained open because he had successors (Caliphs; deputies).


Successor means a person who succeeds the position of the previous one. It is the obvious that successors of Prophet Muhammad did not share anything about his position of prophethood and messengership. What remained for them was Imamat (leadership).

And the number of these Imams are twelve as the Prophet himself testified. Also note that Qur’an clearly says that Imam and Caliph is assigned by God and this designation has nothing to do with people. For more evidence in the assignment of Imam by Allah, see the following verses of Qur’an: 38:20 (about David), 2:124 (about Abraham), 2:30 (about Adam), and 7:142, 20:29-36, 25:35 (about Aaron).

A contributor implied that the Shi’a are non-Muslims because they believe the above thing (Imamat higher than Messengership) while he did not present any single evidence from Qur’an and authentic Hadith against it. But I have presented a proof from Qur’an, and as such, better better be their own judge as to whether you are a Muslims or not.


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Evidence From Sunni Collections Of Traditions

The Shi’a further believe that the twelve Imams of the House of Prophet Muhammad have the rank higher than that of ALL the messengers (be Imam or not) except Prophet Muhammad (S). In other words, the Status of the successors of the Seal of the Prophets is higher than that of the successors of all the previous prophets. (Note that the sucessors of the previous Prophets were themselves prophets). Need Sunni reference? Here are some:

- Imam ‘Ali (as) having the highest virtues of the early great Messengers:

The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "He who wants to see Noah (as) in his determination, Adam (as) in his knowledge, Abraham (as) in his clemency, Moses (as) in his intelligence and Jesus (as) in his religious devotion should look at ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as)."

Sunni references:

- Sahih al-Bayhaqi
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, as quoted in
- Sharh Ibn Abi al-Hadid, v2, p449
- Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhruddin al-Razi, under the commentary of the Verse of Impreciation (Mubilah), v2 p288. He wrote this tradition has been accpeted as all genuine.

- Ibn Batah has recorded it as a tradition related by Ibn Abbas as is stated in the book "Fat’h al-Mulk al-’Ali bi Sihah Hadith-e-Bab-e- Madinat al-Ilm", p34, by Ahmed Ibn Muhammad Ibn Siddiq al-Hasani al- Maghribi.

- Among those who have admitted that Imam ‘Ali (as) is the store house of the secrets of all the Prophets is the Chief of Gnostics, Muhi al- Din al-Arabi, from whom al-Arif al-Sha’arni has copied it in his al- Yuwaqit wa al-Jawahir (p172, topic 32).

- The Light (Noor) of the Prophet (S) and ‘Ali (as) preceded the creation of Adam (as):

Salman al-Farsi (ra) narrated that:
I heard the Messenger of Allah (S) saying: "I myself, and ‘Ali were one light in the hands of Allah fourteen thousand years (14,000) before He created Adam (as). When Allah created Adam (as) He divided that light into two parts, one part is me and one part ‘Ali."

Sunni References:

- Mizan Al-Ei’tidal, by al-Dhahabi, v1, p235
- Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p663, Tradition #1130
- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p164, v3, p154
- History of Ibn Asakir Remark: "hand of Allah”means His power. The phrase "within the hands
of Allah”means in His presence, domain, realm, kingdom.

This clearly shows that the rank of Prophet Muhammad (S) and Imam ‘Ali (as) are better than any human being ever created by Allah.

- No one crosses the Path except by a passport from ‘Ali (as):

Anas Ibn Malik narrated:
"When Abu Bakr neared death,..., Abu Bakr said that he heard the Messenger of Allah (S) saying: That there is an obstacle on the Path which no one crosses unless with a passport (permission) from ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as). And I heard the Messenger of Allah (S) saying: "I am the seal of the prophets and you, ‘Ali, the seal of the Awliyaa."

Sunni references:

- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v10, p356
- al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9, subheading 2, p195

Imam ‘Ali (as) narrated:

The Messenger of Allah (S) said: When Allah gathers the first-ones and the last-ones on the Day of Judgment, and the Path has been erected on the bridge of Hell, no one can cross it unless he had along proof of allegiance (Wilaya) to ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib."

Sunni reference: al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, v2, p172

- ‘Ali (as) is the divider of People to Paradise and Hell:

"The prophet (S) said to ‘Ali (as): You are the divider of Paradise and Hell on the Day of Judgment, you say to Hell: This one for me and that one for you."

Sunni reference: al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9, subheading 2, p195

"‘Ali (as) said: I am the alloter/divider of Hell."

Sunni references:
- Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p402
- Radd al-Shams, by Shathan Al-Fudhaily

"The Messenger of Allah (S) has said: ‘Ali is the divider of Hell."

Sunni reference: Kunooz Al-Haqa’iq, by Abdul Raouf al-Manawi, p92


Do I need to comment?! Now look at what your master Umar said on the virtue of Imam ‘Ali (as):

Umar Ibn al-Khattab said: "If all the seven planets, and the all the seven heavens are put in one scale of balance and the faith of ‘Ali in the other, ‘Ali’s pan will turn the scales."

Sunni References:

- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari
- Izalat al-Khifa Maqsad

- ‘Ali (as) the best of people after Prophet Muhammad (S):

"...Jabir said: The messenger of Allah (S) said: ‘Ali is the best of humanity (after me), so whoever has doubt is a Kafir."

Sunni references:
- Kinooz Al-Haqa’iq, by Abdul Raouf al-Manawi, p92
- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v7, p421

Here is another one:

...Zar quoting Abdullah, quoting ‘Ali (as), that the Prophet (S) said: "Whoever does not say that ‘Ali is the best in my people, is a Kafir."

Sunni references:
- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v3, p19
- Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p419

also Barida narrated:

The messenger of Allah (S) said to Fatimah (sa) that: "I gave you in marriage to the best in my Ummah, the most knowledgeable in them, the best in patience in them, and the first Muslim among them."

Sunni reference: Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p398

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Now, let us now look at a future episode on the appearance of Imam Mahdi (as) (the last Imam of the House of the Prophet(S)). Sunnis have narrated in their authentic books that when Imam Mahdi (as) comes, Prophet Jesus (as) will descent and will pray behind him. This clearly shows that the rank of Imam Mahdi (as) is higher than that of Prophet Jesus who was one of the five greatest messengers of Allah. It is narrated in Sahih

Muslim that:

Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari (ra) said: I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: "A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: "No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them."

Sunni reference:

- Sahih Muslim, Arabic, part 2, p193
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, pp 45,384
- Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p251
- Nuzool Isa Ibn Maryam Akhir al-Zaman, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p57
- Musnad, by Abu Ya’ala which provides another version of the tradition with more clear words on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of

Allah said: "A group among my Ummah will continue to fight for the truth until Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the Imam of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus replies: "You have more right to it and verily Allah has hnonored some of you over others in this Ummah.”

Ibn Abu Shaybah, another Sunni traditionist, and the mentor of al-Bukhari and Muslim, has reported several traditions about Imam al-Mahdi (as). He has also reported that the Imam of the Muslims who will lead Prophet Jesus in prayer is Imam al-Mahdi himself.

Jalaluddin al-Suyuti mentioned that: "I have heard some of the deniers of (truth) deny what has been conveyed about Jesus that when he descends will pray the Fajr prayer behind al-Mahdi. They say, Jesus has higher status than to pray behind a non-Prophet.

This is a bizarre opinion since the issue of prayer of Jesus behind al-Mahdi has been proven strongly via numerous authentic traditions from the Messenger of Allah, who is the most truthful.”And then al-Suyuti goes on narrating some of the traditions in this regard. (See Nuzool Isa Ibn Maryam Akhir al-Zaman, by Jalaluddin al-
Suyuti, p56).

Also al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani mentioned that:

"The Mahdi is of this Ummah, and that Jesus (S) will come down and pray behind him."

Sunni reference: Fat’h al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v5, p362

This is also mentioned by another scholar, Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, who wrote:

"The Ahlul-Bayt are like the stars through whom we are guided in the right direction, and if the starts are taken away (or hidden) we would come face to face with the signs of the Almighty as promised (i.e., the Day of Resurrection). This will happen when the Mahdi will come, as mentioned in the traditions, and the Prophet Jesus will say his prayers behind him, the Dajjal will be slain, and then the signs of the Almighty will appear one after another."

Sunni reference: Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch 11, p91

All these clearly show that the rank of Imam Mahdi (as) is higher than that of Prophet Jesus (as) who was one of the five greatest messengers of Allah.


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Are The Imams Inspired

Do you really think revelation (Wahy) is only for the prophets and the messengers? If yes, then you have contradicted Qur’an, for Qur’an confirms that Allah sent revelation (Wahy) to the mother of Moses. The mother of Moses was neither a prophet nor a messenger. Agreed? Allah revealed to her to leave her son in the river so that Pharaoh’s soldier could take it to the Palace:

And We revealed to the mother of Moses: Suckle (thy child) but when thou hast fears about him cast him into the river but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee and We shall make him one of Our apostles. (Qur’an 28:7)

وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ أُمِّ مُوسَىٰ




Notice that Qur’an straightforwardly uses the word Wahy (revelation). Here, Yusuf ‘Ali has translated the word Wahy into inspiration. But Qur’an uses Wahy (revelation), and not Ihlam (inspiration). Wahy and Ihlam are two different things.

However one thing which is clear is that the revelations to those who were neither prophet nor messenger, did not have anything to do with Shari’ah (divine law). It did NOT have anything to do with religious practices etc.

Rather, It was an order to what way to choose at the time of confusion and/or informing what has happened or what will happen.

So we can conclude that even revelation has different types. Only the revelation to Prophets and messengers is related to Shari’ah (divine law) and new religious practices, while others do not receive this type of revelation.

Remark: Qur’an also uses the word Wahy for non-human beings, but I am not concerned about that. I was focusing on different types of Wahy for human being only.

About our Imams: There are twelve Imams (Guides) after Prophet Muhammad (S). Prophet mentioned that the number of his successors are twelve, and al-Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Ahmad, ... recorded that.

The first of them, Imam ‘Ali, got his knowledge of religion and the Divine Laws from Prophet Muhammad directly. Later Imams got it from the preceding Imams. There was NO revelation of Divine Law (concerning oneself or people) after Prophet Muhammad (S). Allah may inform something to his appointed Imam, but the information is not any how related to Divine Law since the religion is complete. The information is only related to what happened and what will happen.

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Do Imams Meet Angels

Now when the Status of Immamate is proven. I will prove to you that individuals without any Divine Status too met Angels so its no quarrel that Imams too have this ability. 

Allah mentioned in Qur’an that Mary (the mother of Jesus) talked to angels, and angels talked to him. Look at Qur’an, to see the conversation of Mary and the angels:

"Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus the son of Mary held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. (Qur’an 3:45)"

There is a whole conversation between Mary and the angel. See a couple of verses before and after the above verse. Mary (as) was neither a prophet nor a messenger, yet she talked to angels. However the communication of Mary with angels had nothing to do with Shari’ah (Divine Law). It did not have anything to do with religious practices. Rather it was a news to what is about to happen, and instructions of what to do.

In this connection, also see verses 11:69-73 where angels talked to the wife of Abraham and gave her the glad tiding that she is pregnant of prophet Isaac (as).

Even Sunnis claim that Imran Ibn al-Husayn al-Khuza’i (d. 52/672) who was one of the companions of the Prophet Muhammad (S), was visited by angels, greeted by angels, shook hands with angels and saw them, only being left by them for a short period after which the angels returned to him till the end of his life.

Sunni references:

(1) Sahih Muslim, V4, pp 47-48
(2) Also commentaries of Sahih Muslim by al-Nabawi, V8, P206, and by al-Abi and al-Sanusi, V3, P361.
(3) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, V4, PP 427-428
(4) Sunan Darimi, V2, P305
(5) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, V3, P472
(6) Tabaqat, by Ib Sa’d, V7, part 1, P6
(7) al-Isti’ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, V3, P1208
(8) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, V4, P138
(9) Jami’ul Usul, by Ibn Athir, V7, P551
(10) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V3, PP 26-27
(11) Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V8, P126
(12) Fathul al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V12, P261
(13) Sharh al-Mawahib, by al-Qastalani, V7, P133

There is no shadow of doubt that Imam ‘Ali (as) was "Muhaddath”which means "a person who has been spoken to". Not only him, but also, all the twelve Imams as well as Lady Fatimah (sa) were Muhaddath/Muhaddathah.

Based on the authentic Sunni traditions, it is narrated by Abu Huraira and Aisha that:

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 4.675 (Arabic-English Version)

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Amongst the people preceding you there used to be ‘Muhaddathun’ (i.e. persons who can guess things that come true later on, like those persons have been inspired by a divine power), and if there are any such persons amongst my followers, it is ..."

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.38 (Arabic-English Version)

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Apostle said, "Among the nations before you there used to be people who were inspired (though they were not prophets). And if there is any of such a persons amongst my followers, it is ."
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Among the nation of Bani Israel who lived before you, there were men who used to be inspired with guidance though they were not prophets, and if there is any of such persons amongst my followers, it is ..."


The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "Verily among the nations before your time there have been Muhaddathoon (those who have been spoken to), and if there is one among my people it is ...”Also the Messenger of Allah said: "Verily among the Children of Israel before your time there have been men who have been spoken to (rijalun yukallamoon) who were NOT prophets and if there is one among my people it is ..."

Sunni reference:

- Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic version, v4, p211, v5, p15, and also its commentaries:
- Fat’h al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v7, p324, v8, pp 49-51
- Umdatul Qari, by al-Ayni, v16, pp 55,198-199
- Irshad al-Sari, by Qastalani, v6, p103
- Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, part 7, p115, and its commentaries:
- Sharh Nawawi (sahih Muslim), part 15, p166
- Sharh al-Abi, part 6, pp 203-205
- Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p622, and its commentaries:
- Aridah al-Ahwadhi, by Ibn al-Arabi, v13, pp 149-150
- Tuhfah al-Ahwadhi, by al-Mubarak Furi, v10, pp 182-183
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v6, p55

Note: I have deleted the name of the companion of the Prophet mentioned in the above traditions since his being Muhaddath is not confirmed by the Shi’a. Concerning the opinion of the Shi’a see al-Ghadir, by al-Amini, v5, pp 42-54, v8, pp 90-91.

It is mentioned in the above Sunni commentaries that the meaning of Muhaddath here is a person who is divinely inspired, who meets the angels and is spoken to by them, and who is informed of the news of Ghayb (not to be confused with the knowledge of Ghayb which belongs to Allah only) which is the information about the present time and the future, and that the companions who are mentioned in those traditions had these attributes!!!

The conclusion is that the existence of Muhaddathoon (those who are spoken to) is a matter attested by all Muslims and that it is not something contrary to the fundamentals of Islam. The above Sunni documents also give evidence to the fact that Muhaddathoon are not prophets and they did not bring Shari’ah (divine law) from Allah to people.

Edited by Waseem162

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I do believe the Imams have the highest status of all humans. I do differ with the belief that the Imams are higher in status than the Prophets.

I do believe this because only the Believe in Allah, His angels. His books, His prophets (and the Last Day) are mentioned in Quran.

Imams are not mentioned. But that doesn't mean I do not accept them as such (Imams).

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On 8/1/2017 at 0:40 PM, iavswn said:

How can a Muslim be Shia or Sunni when Allah has prohibited the creation of divisions? 

Qur'an 3:103 And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided.

According to the Holy Qur'an there are divisions and people will be in those divisions on the Judgement Day:


One day We shall call every group of people by their respective Imams. (Qur’an 17:71)

The OP has been argumentative in this topic, especially after page 9. Moderators have discussed reports about posts in this topic and decided the topic has come to an end. :locked: 

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