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How do you refute Trinity?

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On 8/1/2017 at 6:57 AM, IbnSina said:

 

How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?

If there was a clear answer to you question, would there be different Christian congregations? 

Christians are Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants. Does this not prove that religion is a belief and not something we know for certain?

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10 hours ago, IbnSina said:

I asked specifically about the Bible not the rest of christian doctrines in general.

 

You will have to be more specific than "within the doctrines" if you are looking for a specific answer of a specific doctrine, specifically about the Bible.  Actually, everyone answers you carefully because your agenda is not to understand but to take, twist, create nonsense of it, and throw it back as an accusation, all under the guise of "conversing".

To get a better idea it would be easier for you to consult the Qu'ran on the laws you now follow. Which direction does the Qu'ran tell you to face when praying? How many times does the Qu'ran actually tell you to pray? Does the Qu'ran bullet point a ceremonial wash? Where does the Qu'ran say hijab, niqab, burka? Things like that. 

I say this because it is confirmed that the Qu'ran is the only book that can be considered divine and 100% from God. Everything not specifically outlined is from where? 

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5 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I say this because it is confirmed that the Qu'ran is the only book that can be considered divine and 100% from God. Everything not specifically outlined is from where? 

Do you believe the Quran is 100% from God?

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So, I am a little late to the party but isn't the doctrine of the trinity a result of the exegesis of the biblical text as the doctrine of tawheed is a result of the exegesis of the Qur'an? Since apostolic fathers, as early as Barnabas held to the dual nature of Messiah, why would we think the concept of trinity is only an invention of the late 2nd century theologian Tertullian who used the Latin term in his writings? There are even Jewish writings that held to a binitarian understanding of the nature of YHWH. We see this in the apocalyptic work of Enoch where the Messianic figure is divine. Indeed even in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in the Melchizedek scroll, which references Psalm 110, the figure is more than human and put on the same level with YHWH. The Son of Man is obviously a divine figure in Daniel 7:13. The Son of Man figure is prominent in the pseudapigraphical book of Enoch. This does show Jewish thought of the late second temple.

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2 hours ago, andres said:

Do you believe the Quran is 100% from God?

Yes, just like 1/4th of humanity.

This is the conviction of every muslim on earth and it is very fundamental in islam.

 

7 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Actually, everyone answers you carefully because your agenda is not to understand but to take, twist, create nonsense of it, and throw it back as an accusation, all under the guise of "conversing".

I am trying to make sense out of this one persons logic, not all the christains of the world. This person in particular has said that he is not christian but seem to adopt some christian concepts.

I am trying to see how well thought thru his understanding actually is.

As far as I am concerned, there is not need for others to answer when I am asking a specific person.

Lastly, if something I say makes no sense to you, it does not mean that it is nonsense but that you in particular can not make sense of it.

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21 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I don't think I said the Bible has been meddled with.  You mind quoting me?

I suggest you to read the section on the Bible in the wiki link I sent you.  

According to the Eastern Orthodox Chirch, the Bible is not, technically speaking, the Word of God... it is Jesus himself who is the Word of God.  I quote from the wiki link:

 

"In a very strict sense, it is not entirely orthodox to call the Holy Scriptures the "Word of God". That is a title the Orthodox Church reserves for Christ, as supported in the scriptures themselves, most explicitly in the first chapter of the gospel of John. God's Word is not hollow, like human words. "God said, 'let there be light'; and there was light."[123] This is the Word which spoke the universe into being, and resonates in creation without diminution throughout all history, a Word of divine power."

As far as I have understood you, when you said:

"The Quran is the Word of God made book, while as in Christianity the Word of God is Jesus himself (not the Bible).  So, it is fine if something as fundamental (or what "appears" to be fundamental) as the Doctrine of the Trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible (at least explicitly).  Secondly, Jesus (in Christianity) didn't come prima facie to teach an intellectual doctrine like we find in Islam with the Shahada and with the Chapter on Tawhid (i.e. Surat al-Ikhlas).  That job was or is left (if at all, or if needed) for the Church Fathers or in the inheritors of the message of Jesus Christ. "

 

Also, you just said it again:

"According to the Eastern Orthodox Chirch, the Bible is not, technically speaking, the Word of God... it is Jesus himself who is the Word of God.  I quote from the wiki link"

 

Also you said:

21 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

"Orthodox Christians hold that he Bible is a verbal icon of Christ, as proclaimed by the 7th ecumenical council.[116] They refer to the Bible as Holy Scripture, meaning writings containing the foundational truths of the Christian faith as revealed by Christ and the Holy Spirit to its divinely inspired human authors. Holy Scripture forms the primary and authoritative written witness of Holy Tradition and is essential as the basis for all Orthodox teaching and belief.[117]The Bible provides the only texts held to be suitable for reading in Orthodox worship services. Through the many scriptural quotations embedded in the worship service texts themselves, it is often said that the Orthodox pray the Bible as well as read it."

What does divinely inspired humans actually mean? If they are humans who convey the message of God that makes them prophets.

And what does "holy tradition" actually mean?

 

 

I need you to tell me, before we can continue this discussion:

What status does the Bible hold in your eyes in particular?

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13 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

IbnSina does, doesn't he?

 

Most Muslims seemingly still do. And some Christians still claim the Bible is. These beliefs have long stoped prosperous developement of world societies, consequently not so much in the Christian world, but still holds a grip over the Muslim. 

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4 hours ago, andres said:

Most Muslims seemingly still do. And some Christians still claim the Bible is. These beliefs have long stoped prosperous developement of world societies, consequently not so much in the Christian world, but still holds a grip over the Muslim. 

It's not altogether a bad thing to hold that thought. Besides all the battles and genocides that everyone has to talk about, there have been congregations living by Biblical and Qu'ranic standards that are doing just fine since the creation of their established religion. 

 Not sure about prosperous development. Retiring earthenware for ceramics saved a lot of trouble, but replacing everything with plastics was never a good idea. I find more and more that new and improved may be new, but seldom actually improved. The prosperity is hoarded by the already rich.

Number one rule in evolution is, everything evolves to a lesser state. This seems to mean religions as well...as it follows the degradation of society. Not everybody wants to see known sins accepted as normal. We have examples of godless states and what God has done to them but they're in the scriptures you question. 

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13 hours ago, andres said:

Most Muslims seemingly still do.

All muslims do.

Any person who calls themselves muslim while also saying that the holy Quran is not holy, that it is not fully the words of Allah swt, such a person will be condemned by all muslims and not considered a muslim anymore by the ummah, regardless of what they call themselves.

If a person based on todays norms, who by the way are created by God knows who, do not agree with a particular ayah of the holy Quran, that does not mean that it is not the will and words of the creator of the universe. And what about the rest of the 99% of the holy Quran that he/she agrees with?

The fact that the holy Quran is fully the and completely the words of the creator of universe is absolutely fundamental and unchangeable.

But anyways, this is a separate discussion.

 

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14 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

It's not altogether a bad thing to hold that thought. Besides all the battles and genocides that everyone has to talk about, there have been congregations living by Biblical and Qu'ranic standards that are doing just fine since the creation of their established religion. 

 Not sure about prosperous development. Retiring earthenware for ceramics saved a lot of trouble, but replacing everything with plastics was never a good idea. I find more and more that new and improved may be new, but seldom actually improved. The prosperity is hoarded by the already rich.

Number one rule in evolution is, everything evolves to a lesser state. This seems to mean religions as well...as it follows the degradation of society. Not everybody wants to see known sins accepted as normal. We have examples of godless states and what God has done to them but they're in the scriptures you question. 

Was moral standard better before we had democrasy, dentists, hospitals, education and airoplanes? When laws prescribed stoning to death for carrying fuel to heat your house during Sabbath?  

You have misunderstood evolution. Most mutations are unsuccessful. Few are successful. The fittest survives. Israel had not existed, had they not been helped by nations more developed than their neighbours. Educated immigrants also formed the State of Israel. A 500BC OT state had never survived.

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6 hours ago, IbnSina said:

The fact that the holy Quran is fully the and completely the words of the creator of universe is absolutely fundamental and unchangeable.

 If this is the true word of God, God did not manage to speak so clear that Muslims would understand. Or is there a branch of a islam that did? Shias?

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3 hours ago, andres said:

 If this is the true word of God, God did not manage to speak so clear that Muslims would understand. Or is there a branch of a islam that did? Shias?

I do not find it hard to understand and for example if a certain ayah is harder to understand I ask those who have studied it more in depth, for example the historic context in which it was revealed, etc.

Yes, as far as I am concerned the shia branch of Islam has the correct understanding and interpretation of the holy Quran especially since we have our 12 infallible Imams(as) who have clarified any questions.

Anyways, people some times like to misunderstand things because it fits their personal wishes better. Letting go of personal wishes and be is submission to Allah swt is what it means to be a muslim.

But as I said, this is another discussion for another thread.

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6 hours ago, andres said:

When laws prescribed stoning to death for carrying fuel to heat your house during Sabbath?  

Palestine is not as cold as Sweden. So heating the home in that part of the world was not a priority.

In any case, I do not know what your beliefs are but every Jew, Christian and Muslim believes that Moses was a man of God. That could be more than 4 billion people. 

So if Moses was a man of God, then his laws must have come from God.

Which means that however harsh the laws may be, ordinary mortals do not have the wherewithal to question them. 

Because we are then effectively challenging God, who is supposed to be perfect.

I can understand that those laws sound very harsh but if we don't accept what God says, we do not really believe in Him.

The true theist must believe that however harsh His laws may sound, they must have a purpose that our little minds cannot fathom and that He is actually far more merciful than any human being can ever be.

Does that sound reasonable?

We are, of course, under no obligation to believe in God or in the premise that He is worthy of unquestioned acceptance and obedience.

The choice is entirely ours.  

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Look at the Biblical Lords Prayer

Math 6th Chap

9. 'Our Father which art in heaven. Hallowed be Thy name.' - Has God only the fatherly love without the motherly attachment? Is God only in Heaven and not on Earth?

10. 'Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as is in heaven.' - Is earth now out of God's Kingdom, i.e. out of His hold or authority? If it is not God's authority that prevails on the earth, who is then the present owner and ruler of the earth? If it not God's will that is always fulfilled on the earth and elsewhere in the universe, whose will is that is being done in the earth now?

11. 'Give us this day our daily bread' - Is bread the only thing that man needs for his life in this world? What about clothes and the other amenities, essential for man's stay on earth? Is there anyone else besides God to provide man with what he needs?

ill do the last 2 verses down below 

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12. 'And forgive us ours debts as we forgive our debtors' - can the one or two petty debts or no rear worth or significance at all, which might be due to us from others, be ever compared to the innumerable and invaluable bounties we continuously receive from Allah? Can the worthless and insignificant debts of ours imaginably be worthy to ransom against our indebtedness to the infinite benevolence of the All-Merciful Almighty Lord?

13. 'Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. From Thine is the kingdom, and the power and the  glory for ever. Amen.' - it is Satan who leads man to temptation and it god who can and who does protect man against it. Does god also lead his creatures to sin? Then who is Satan and what is his quality and work ? The very second article of this prayer says 'thy kingdom come ' and now in this article it is asserted saying 'thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory for ever', is this not a self-contradicting statement?

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On ٢‏/٨‏/٢٠١٧ at 10:20 PM, andres said:

Do you believe the Quran is 100% from God?

I'll answer that for you. See my posts at the end of the thread which refute your Lord's Prayer and I will answer that for you brother :) my hands are so tired I wrote a lot 

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Carrying on... The fact is that any prayer composer by man for his use will naturally be imperfect, and even defective happening in it the aspects of the acknowledged limitation of the human knowledge about God and the conceptive limitation to fully comprehend the incomprehensible infinite divine attributes. Man, when he asks for himself without any guidance from God to do it, will naturally ask for his own immediate demand in this material life in his earthly abode, and thus has been proved to be true in the wording of the above prayer. Besides the prayers formulated by man in the days when he was not yet to be educated with the fundamental knowledge in its fullness, about his individual self and the Universal one, about the vanity of life and the reality of the hereafter, can never be expected to be perfect, neither in wording nor in the concept.

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1 hour ago, beladalrafidan said:

Look at the Biblical Lords Prayer

Math 6th Chap

9. 'Our Father which art in heaven. Hallowed be Thy name.' - Has God only the fatherly love without the motherly attachment? Is God only in Heaven and not on Earth?

10. 'Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as is in heaven.' - Is earth now out of God's Kingdom, i.e. out of His hold or authority? If it is not God's authority that prevails on the earth, who is then the present owner and ruler of the earth? If it not God's will that is always fulfilled on the earth and elsewhere in the universe, whose will is that is being done in the earth now?

11. 'Give us this day our daily bread' - Is bread the only thing that man needs for his life in this world? What about clothes and the other amenities, essential for man's stay on earth? Is there anyone else besides God to provide man with what he needs?

ill do the last 2 verses down below 

You're kidding, right?

Jesus called God His Father on many occasions, always followed by, "Who is in Heaven"  You expected Jesus to call God His mother? Yes, God is in Heaven. The idea that God is an omnipresent being that lives on earth and controls every little thing that happens is what athiests use as an argument against God. God created many angels, not because He wanted a cheering section to watch Him do everything. Gabriel is your first best example.

How does a wish for earth to be like Heaven have anything to do with a God who's kingdom encompasses the universe(s)? Do you see God's will being carried out on earth? Did God instruct man how to build a nuclear bomb? Did God build all the bars and taverns that people destroy their lives in? Does God rule the internet?  

Bread is a good start, it sustains the body so men can do things for themselves. Did you expect a full list? Would it have included a tooth brush? If Jesus were to name every little thing you'd like on the list, He'd still be on the mount teaching us how to pray.

Quote

 

12. 'And forgive us ours debts as we forgive our debtors' - can the one or two petty debts or no rear worth or significance at all, which might be due to us from others, be ever compared to the innumerable and invaluable bounties we continuously receive from Allah? Can the worthless and insignificant debts of ours imaginably be worthy to ransom against our indebtedness to the infinite benevolence of the All-Merciful Almighty Lord?

13. 'Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. From Thine is the kingdom, and the power and the  glory for ever. Amen.' - it is Satan who leads man to temptation and it god who can and who does protect man against it. Does god also lead his creatures to sin? Then who is Satan and what is his quality and work ? The very second article of this prayer says 'thy kingdom come ' and now in this article it is asserted saying 'thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory for ever', is this not a self-contradicting statement?

 

Anyone who actually studied this for more than 8 seconds would know that debt is a modern translation of trespass. This is not about monetary debts, but trespassing. It doesn't mean walking on your neighbours lawn, if that's your next thought. To trespass means to wrong someone. Asking for forgiveness for things you have done wrong to other people, and forgiving people who have done wrong to you. I know it's not a concept you are used to because Islam seems to prefer vengeance.

How does that become self contradicting? Both the Bible and the Qu'ran speak of God confusing the ungodly. This might be a bit deep for you because the Qu'ran doesn't go into much detail on evil. It's rather obvious that Heaven and earth are not the same. Even the Qu'ran speaks of earth as a testing ground for mankind, It happens to be within the kingdom of God. 

Part of satan's quality and work is to twist and refute scripture. 

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43 minutes ago, beladalrafidan said:

Carrying on... The fact is that any prayer composer by man for his use will naturally be imperfect, and even defective happening in it the aspects of the acknowledged limitation of the human knowledge about God and the conceptive limitation to fully comprehend the incomprehensible infinite divine attributes. Man, when he asks for himself without any guidance from God to do it, will naturally ask for his own immediate demand in this material life in his earthly abode, and thus has been proved to be true in the wording of the above prayer. Besides the prayers formulated by man in the days when he was not yet to be educated with the fundamental knowledge in its fullness, about his individual self and the Universal one, about the vanity of life and the reality of the hereafter, can never be expected to be perfect, neither in wording nor in the concept.

So you say, but it's not evidenced in the Lords prayer.

Your accusation basically says Jesus taught people to pray selfishly without guidance. Maybe you should put more thought into this. Your agenda cannot be proven here, only seen as a prejudice looking for a place to land. 

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9 hours ago, baqar said:

Palestine is not as cold as Sweden. So heating the home in that part of the world was not a priority.

In any case, I do not know what your beliefs are but every Jew, Christian and Muslim believes that Moses was a man of God. That could be more than 4 billion people. 

So if Moses was a man of God, then his laws must have come from God.

Very many Jews and Christians today have realised that Moses is a mythical person. When will Muslims start to find out?

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29 minutes ago, andres said:

Very many Jews and Christians today have realised that Moses is a mythical person. When will Muslims start to find out?

Very many?

Have the Vatican and Protestant churches accepted the verdict of the very many Christians that you mention.

If they haven't, then the views of your very many Christians holds no significance for me.

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