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How do you refute Trinity?

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1 hour ago, IbnSina said:

In what way has he "poured his heart out"? And in what way have i destroyed it?

I have no interest in destroying anyones heart, especially since i do not gain anything in doing so. My sense of what is true and was is false is independent of his heart whether it is whole or it is destroyed.

If a person cannot stand being questioned regarding what they are saying without feeling hurt then they should remain quiet to begin with, as far as I know, we are all adults here.

I wish to understand my surrounding and in order to do so, I question my surrounding. You and others are part of my surrounding.

But I will tell you one thing, I usually refrain from discussing religion with Christians, not because I am afraid to but because I fear that in a discussion of what makes more logical sense, they will end up abandoning their religion in the end but I more so fear that their sense of pride will prevent them from adopting a religion which makes more rational sense, leaving them all together with no religion at all and I do not want that.

I believe the current religion of modern Christianity is more based on emotions than anything ells, the concept of trinity is a prime example, in this case the person in particular seems to base his sense of what is truth and sensible on "Classical Medieval Mystical Philosophy" whatever that actually means...

As I said before I am not out to hurt anyone or destroy anyones heart but I would like to expand my knowledge by asking and I would also like to increase my understanding of the answer by questioning the answer, just like Imam Ali(as) has said:

B-Rl6txCYAE5q-1.jpg

 

Which part of what I said makes you not be able to continue the conversation?

Your faith seems to be a mix of religions, making you a "special snowflake".

You saying you are able to write me books in response to my questions makes you deem yourself as "enlightened".

You thinking I and others would find your lack of clarity regarding your religious status "interesting" makes it look like you enjoy attention.

You call the holy Quran "our book" and at the same time you believe in trinity and at the same time you forget about ayahs who specifically condemns the concept of trinity. Is that a small thing to forget?

Me saying that I think you are a selective reader is evident from your own posts, me saying you are selective in what questions you wish to answer is evident from your own posts.

Or was it my bringing of the example of Prophet Noa(as) to show how your argument cannot hold what makes you not be able to continue?

Or was it me questioning you definition of what you yourself deem as sacred in relation to your previous statements?

 

Honestly brothers in humanity, our time to interact with each other in this short life is so limited, if you would count the seconds of interaction then perhaps we would stop beating around the bush. I do not wish to spend my short time interacting with you by trying to win your liking of me or by trying to play games. Lets be genuine and lets be straight forward.

To say that the one God is three is a huge statement, if your words could manifest, such statement would shake the mountains. You better be able to defend your statement, for sure you will be questioned about it, if not in this life by nobodies like me then in the grave by the angels and ultimately by the one and eternal God.

 

Salamun Alaykum Dear Brother,

There is no need to get so upset.  Just relax and smile and everyone will get along just fine.. inshallah. :)  

If you can learn to do that, then we will continue to discuss inshallah.  

Ethereal

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

Surah 4:171

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Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

Surah 5:73

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On 7/28/2017 at 9:51 PM, eThErEaL said:

Salamun Alaykum Dear Brother,

There is no need to get so upset.  Just relax and smile and everyone will get along just fine.. inshallah. :)  

If you can learn to do that, then we will continue to discuss inshallah.  

Ethereal

Ws,

I fail to see how anything of what I have said so far could be interpreted as me projecting that I am upset.

I have no reason to be upset, all I am doing is questioning your answers and then confronting your (lack of) use of relevant and consistent rhetoric.

Maybe you think I am upset because I confront you on your logic? Maybe you are not used to be questioned on what you believe, I dont know.

Anyways, I am not here to dance to someones flute.

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1 hour ago, IbnSina said:

Ws,

I fail to see how anything of what I have said so far could be interpreted as me projecting that I am upset.

I have no reason to be upset, all I am doing is questioning your answers and then confronting your (lack of) use of relevant and consistent rhetoric.

Maybe you think I am upset because I confront you on your logic? Maybe you are not used to be questioned on what you believe, I dont know.

Anyways, I am not here to dance to someones flute.

 

 

:)

Alright, 

let us discuss one point at a time, inshallah.  

Which was the first thing you feel that I have been avoiding?  (I may not have gotten to some particular point you made also because I may not have had so much time).  But let us keep our posts short and confined to one particular point (as much as we can).  

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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4 hours ago, wolverine said:
Quote

Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

Surah 5:73

Salam Ya wolverine 

 

I was just reading this verse and it now occurs to me that this is not what the Doctrine of Trinity says.  God is not the third of three.  Maybe this verse is rejecting very crude versions of Trinity,  

So the verse that says, "don't say Three, that is better for you...."

is a far more suitable verse to use because it seems more general!   but, in this verse we find that it says "it is better for you if you stop", not that it is all together wrong.  It sounds like a discouragement (and not necessarily inherently wrong.

But in any case, like I said, even if it denounced the Trinity completely... it's fine!

Edited by eThErEaL

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Imam al-Sadiq (as) was asked, “Why is it not permissible that there be more than one creator of the universe?” Thus, he (as) replied: …Furthermore, if you claim that there are two gods, there must be a division between them both, which has always existed, and that division would have to be a third god. However, if you claim that there are three gods, then there must be two divisions between them, leaving us with five gods, and so on ad aeternum.5

https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-husayn-vahid-khorasani/divine-unity-tawhid#first-proof

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22 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

'They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.'

I feel there are no 'ifs' and 'buts' when it comes to this verse. Many of the tafsirs of our knowledgeable scholars indicate that this doctrine is completely wrong. 

Salam ali_father of orphans,

I was just reading this verse and it now occurs to me that this is not what the Doctrine of Trinity says.  God is not the third of three.  Maybe this verse is rejecting very crude versions of Trinity,  

So the verse that says, "don't say Three, that is better for you...."

is a far more suitable verse to use because it seems more general!   but, in this verse we find that it says "it is better for you if you stop", not that it is all together wrong.  It sounds like a discouragement (and not necessarily inherently wrong.

But in any case, like I said, even if it denounced the Trinity completely... it's fine!

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Third Proof

Indeed, Allah, the Exalted, is present without limitation. As ‘Ali (as) says: Limitation and end do not apply to Him,2 because every limited being is composed of essence and the limitation of that essence. The limitation of essence would mean absence of perfection, which is in addition to that essence.

Thus, this composition is the worst of its types, as composition can be between two existing things or between one existence and one nonexistence. The supposed composition would be between an existence and a nonexistence. However, all types of compositions are impossible for Allah, the Exalted.

The existence which has no limitation must be One for which a second cannot be conceived, because conceiving a second to Him would necessitate limiting Him. A limitation is composed of existence and nonexistence.

Every composed is in need of what it is composed of. Therefore, association in Divinity ends in making the god in need of nonexistence. The Glorified Allah is Unique in essence and attributes. Hence, He has no second to Him, neither confirmed nor conceived.

 

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14 hours ago, eThErEaL said:
  14 hours ago, IbnSina said:

In what way has he "poured his heart out"? And in what way have i destroyed it?

Pointing things out doesn't work. A couple hours down the road from me is a Bible collage. Kids in their early 20's all ramped up on spreading the word of God to all nations. Embracing those who follow, rejecting those who don't. They know everything there is to know about God, and Jesus, and the trinity, and have learned all the answers, have all the bases covered. They see humanity as something they have to save from itself. Until then it has little value and no opinion. They have all the paperwork, but don't have the inner peace that comes with a personal relationship with the creator they spent so much time learning about, thus the main message is lost. They can't see value in people, nor what people value.

In reference to Matthew 7, (actually starts in Matt 5), is part of what Jesus said in His sermon on the mount. In order to properly understand His sermon one needs to acquire an empathetic nature. It played a big part in the lives of Jesus and Muhammad, and they showed many examples, but empathy is only referenced, not taught. Religions would rather keep boundaries. 

If you have trouble talking to Christians for fear they leave their religion, but don't join yours, it might have something to do with your approach. If you can convince them against that which they believe but cannot convince them of what you believe, nobody wins. They are better to stay with the faith they have. Not sure what Muhammad said, but Jesus says woe to those who cause a brother to stumble. 

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On 7/29/2017 at 5:11 AM, eThErEaL said:

So the verse that says, "don't say Three, that is better for you...." [4:171]

Salam. The Holy Qur'an is a very polite book. "don't say Three, that is better for you" acknowledges that some people have benefited from saying Three, but if they are worried about their afterlife they would stop believing it. 

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The whole doctrine came after Prophet Jesus [a.s] in about 325 A.D when Constantine I tried to mix things between Pagan Romans and Christianity,hence he created Modern Christianity with is =/= of Early Christianity.

Trinity doesn't exist in Gospel.

Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful. [Quran 27:64]

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On 7/29/2017 at 11:01 AM, eThErEaL said:

:)

Alright, 

let us discuss one point at a time, inshallah.  

Which was the first thing you feel that I have been avoiding?  (I may not have gotten to some particular point you made also because I may not have had so much time).  But let us keep our posts short and confined to one particular point (as much as we can).  

 

 

How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?

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3 hours ago, IbnSina said:

How does one within the doctrines of Christianity know what is from God and what is from men?

Why would we need to know what doctrines of other religions are from God and what are from men? 

Isn't it more important for all of us to understand our own religion first?

I am sure you will agree that there is a lot more about Islam that we need to know.

Please forgive me but I really think we are wasting our time by trying to worry about other religions when our own religion has a lot more to teach us.

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2 hours ago, baqar said:

Why would we need to know what doctrines of other religions are from God and what are from men? 

Isn't it more important for all of us to understand our own religion first?

I am sure you will agree that there is a lot more about Islam that we need to know.

Please forgive me but I really think we are wasting our time by trying to worry about other religions when our own religion has a lot more to teach us.

 

Its good to understand each other but in order to do so we must converse and ask each other questions, nothing wrong with this.

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11 hours ago, IbnSina said:

 

How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?

1

I can't speak for every single denomination within Christianity but I have an attraction towards the Eastern Orthodox Church. Having said that, I am not at all an expert on Christianity since I am not a Christian and I do not claim to be a scholar of Christianity.  I would encourage Son of Placid and other Christians to share their expertise on the subject (because I know most of the Christians here are not of the Eastern Orthodox Church).  

You are basically asking about Orthodoxy

Quote

 

What unites Orthodox Christians is the catholic faith, whose vessel is Holy Tradition, inspired through the operation of the Holy Spirit. That faith is expressed most fundamentally in Scripture and in worship,[51] and the latter most essentially through the mystery of Baptism and in the Divine Liturgy.[52] The faith lives and breathes by God's energies in communion with the Church. Inter-communion is the litmus test by which all can see that two churches share the same faith; lack of inter-communion (excommunication, literally "out of communion") is the sign of different faiths, even though some central theological points may be shared. The sharing of beliefs can be highly significant, but it is not the full measure of the faith.

The lines of even this test can blur, however, when differences that arise are not due to doctrine, but to recognition of jurisdiction. As the Orthodox Church has spread into the west and over the world, the church as a whole has yet to sort out all the inter-jurisdictional issues that have arisen in the expansion, leaving some areas of doubt about what is proper church governance.[53] And as in the ancient church persecutions, the aftermath of modern persecutions of Christians in communist nations has left behind both some governance and some faith issues that have yet to be completely resolved.[54]

All members of the Orthodox Church profess the same faith, regardless of race or nationality, jurisdiction or local custom, or century of birth. Holy Tradition encompasses the understandings and means by which that unity of faith is transmitted across boundaries of time, geography, and culture. It is a continuity that exists only inasmuch as it lives within Christians themselves.[55] It is not static, nor an observation of rules, but rather a sharing of observations that spring both from within and also in keeping with others, even others who lived lives long past. The Holy Spirit maintains the unity and consistency of the Holy Tradition to preserve the integrity of the faith within the Church, as given in the Scriptural promises.[56]

The shared beliefs of Orthodoxy, and its theology, exist within the Holy Tradition and cannot be separated from it, for their meaning is not expressed in mere words alone.[57] Doctrine cannot be understood unless it is prayed. To be a theologian, one must know how to pray, and one who prays in spirit and in truth becomes a theologian by doing so.[58] Doctrine must also be lived in order to be prayed, for without action, the prayer is idle and empty, a mere vanity, and therefore the theology of demons.[59] According to these teachings of the ancient church, no superficial belief can ever be orthodox. Similarly, reconciliation and unity are not superficial, but are prayed and lived out.

 

Quote

The shared beliefs of Orthodoxy, and its theology, exist within the Holy Tradition and cannot be separated from it, for their meaning is not expressed in mere words alone.[57] Doctrine cannot be understood unless it is prayed. To be a theologian, one must know how to pray, and one who prays in spirit and in truth becomes a theologian by doing so.[58] Doctrine must also be lived in order to be prayed, for without action, the prayer is idle and empty, a mere vanity, and therefore the theology of demons.[59] According to these teachings of the ancient church, no superficial belief can ever be orthodox. Similarly, reconciliation and unity are not superficial, but are prayed and lived out.

3

Isn't this beautiful?  Isn't this something Muslims can learn from? :)

Edited by eThErEaL

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8 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I can't speak for every single denomination within Christianity but I have an attraction towards the Eastern Orthodox Church. Having said that, I am not at all an expert on Christianity since I am not a Christian and I do not claim to be a scholar of Christianity.  I would encourage Son of Placid and other Christians to share their expertise on the subject (because I know most of the Christians here are not of the Eastern Orthodox Church).  

You are basically asking about Orthodoxy

I dont really feel like you answered the question, you just introduced something more unclear which is the concept of "holy tradition". Lets ask Paul about "holy" traditions.

You have adopted the concept of trinity which is a modern christian concept and understanding of God and you have claimed that the concept of trinity is given in the Bible.

And yet, you say that Bible has been meddled with and is not like the holy Quran.

And yet, you cannot answer the question of how you define what is from men and what is from God when its comes to the Bible.

I would like you to answer my question instead of introducing more concepts which are not really relevant to my question.

My question was:

"How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?"

Is your answer: I do not know?

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20 hours ago, IbnSina said:

 

How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?

That's like asking how does one within the doctrines of Islam know what is from God and what is from men?

They are intertwined so those, "within" don't recognize the difference.

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3 hours ago, IbnSina said:

I dont really feel like you answered the question, you just introduced something more unclear which is the concept of "holy tradition". Lets ask Paul about "holy" traditions.

You have adopted the concept of trinity which is a modern christian concept and understanding of God and you have claimed that the concept of trinity is given in the Bible.

And yet, you say that Bible has been meddled with and is not like the holy Quran.

And yet, you cannot answer the question of how you define what is from men and what is from God when its comes to the Bible.

I would like you to answer my question instead of introducing more concepts which are not really relevant to my question.

My question was:

"How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?"

Is your answer: I do not know?

I don't think I said the Bible has been meddled with.  You mind quoting me?

I suggest you to read the section on the Bible in the wiki link I sent you.  

According to the Eastern Orthodox Chirch, the Bible is not, technically speaking, the Word of God... it is Jesus himself who is the Word of God.  I quote from the wiki link:

 

"In a very strict sense, it is not entirely orthodox to call the Holy Scriptures the "Word of God". That is a title the Orthodox Church reserves for Christ, as supported in the scriptures themselves, most explicitly in the first chapter of the gospel of John. God's Word is not hollow, like human words. "God said, 'let there be light'; and there was light."[123] This is the Word which spoke the universe into being, and resonates in creation without diminution throughout all history, a Word of divine power."

 

And yet:

"Orthodox Christians hold that he Bible is a verbal icon of Christ, as proclaimed by the 7th ecumenical council.[116] They refer to the Bible as Holy Scripture, meaning writings containing the foundational truths of the Christian faith as revealed by Christ and the Holy Spirit to its divinely inspired human authors. Holy Scripture forms the primary and authoritative written witness of Holy Tradition and is essential as the basis for all Orthodox teaching and belief.[117]The Bible provides the only texts held to be suitable for reading in Orthodox worship services. Through the many scriptural quotations embedded in the worship service texts themselves, it is often said that the Orthodox pray the Bible as well as read it."

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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3 hours ago, IbnSina said:

I dont really feel like you answered the question, you just introduced something more unclear which is the concept of "holy tradition". Lets ask Paul about "holy" traditions.

You have adopted the concept of trinity which is a modern christian concept and understanding of God and you have claimed that the concept of trinity is given in the Bible.

And yet, you say that Bible has been meddled with and is not like the holy Quran.

And yet, you cannot answer the question of how you define what is from men and what is from God when its comes to the Bible.

I would like you to answer my question instead of introducing more concepts which are not really relevant to my question.

My question was:

"How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?"

Is your answer: I do not know?

I have adopted a "Modern" Christian understanding of Trinity?

What do you mean by "modern"? Do you simply mean "something of today's time"? Trinity is part of a long standing tradition.  It is not something that came about in "today's time".   

I pointed out many verses in the Bible that talk about the Trinity.  It is pretty explicit in my opinion.  The only reason one can say it isn't explicit is because the very word "Trinity" is not mentioned!   But so also is the word "Tawhid" not mentioned in the Quran.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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3 hours ago, IbnSina said:

My question was:

"How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?"

Is your answer: I do not know?

You are asking a very general question which can only be answered in a very general way.

It is like asking, how do Muslims know what issued from the blessed tongue of the Imams (as) and what issued from fallible men?  

The only way to answer this question is by referring the questioner to the entire tradition within Islam that deals with this!  Ilm al-rijal...  is that a specific answer?  No!  Do you want a crash course on Ilm al-rijal?  

Christians have their own method of connecting to Jesus Christ.  And that is discussed in that text from wiki links I quoted. 

A rather beautiful approach of you ask me.   

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4 hours ago, IbnSina said:

I dont really feel like you answered the question, you just introduced something more unclear which is the concept of "holy tradition". Lets ask Paul about "holy" traditions.

You have adopted the concept of trinity which is a modern christian concept and understanding of God and you have claimed that the concept of trinity is given in the Bible.

And yet, you say that Bible has been meddled with and is not like the holy Quran.

And yet, you cannot answer the question of how you define what is from men and what is from God when its comes to the Bible.

I would like you to answer my question instead of introducing more concepts which are not really relevant to my question.

My question was:

"How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?"

Is your answer: I do not know?

https://youtu.be/WSKBGdv07nQ

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2 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

That's like asking how does one within the doctrines of Islam know what is from God and what is from men?

They are intertwined so those, "within" don't recognize the difference.

I asked specifically about the Bible not the rest of christian doctrines in general.

 

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2 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

That's like asking how does one within the doctrines of Islam know what is from God and what is from men?

They are intertwined so those, "within" don't recognize the difference.

I asked specifically about the Bible not the rest of christian doctrines in general.

 

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