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How do you refute Trinity?

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How do you refute the Doctorine of Trinity? How do you persuade someone following trinity that their religion is not right...

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by using WF of course..........

try reading up on the Proof of the veracious or the kalam argument which has been updated by Shayk Taqiuddin Nabhani.

Once you have established God as being necessary to have bought the rest of the world into existence you can conclude that he has no partners, does not incarnate etc.. just a brief summary, read the proofs inshallah

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3 hours ago, King-Ali said:

How do you refute the Doctorine of Trinity? How do you persuade someone following trinity that their religion is not right...

Easy.

Tell them to read their own Gospels and keep track of who says what.

Matthew, Mark, Luke: Gospels say, Satan says, 'son of god'.

Now the two exception points are Matthew's 'Last Suppuer' and one Chr!stian telling has Peter speaking the Words of the Devil -which is why Jesus-a.s. calls Peter a "satan"; OR in another telling, Jesus-a.s. sees the shaytan behind Peter suggesting things and tells the satan assigned to Peter to "get behind me, Satan". None of this occurs in Mark or Luke.

The other exception is the opening of the "Secret Book of Mark" which has two(3?) verses removed to make the "Book of Mark". 

The Book of John is seminarily a "problem" because it mixes in the Words of the Devil quite often into the text. So John contradicts itself within chapters and also across chapters.

The other, holy spook/ghost, ask them what it is.

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3 hours ago, King-Ali said:

How do you refute the Doctorine of Trinity? How do you persuade someone following trinity that their religion is not right...

By helping them analyze the concept of Trinity, the basis of it. Jesus inheriting power from God who has infinite power. Question them with that.

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8 hours ago, King-Ali said:

How do you refute the Doctorine of Trinity? How do you persuade someone following trinity that their religion is not right...

Why would you want to do that?  That doesn't sound like a nice thing to do.  

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7 hours ago, UndercoverBrother said:

by using WF of course..........

try reading up on the Proof of the veracious or the kalam argument which has been updated by Shayk Taqiuddin Nabhani.

Once you have established God as being necessary to have bought the rest of the world into existence you can conclude that he has no partners, does not incarnate etc.. just a brief summary, read the proofs inshallah

Anyone who has had at least a glimmer of understanding of Burhan As-Sidiqeen would not dare argue against the Christian Doctrine of Trinity. 

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5 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

By helping them analyze the concept of Trinity, the basis of it. Jesus inheriting power from God who has infinite power. Question them with that.

How did the creation (with finite existence) come about from God (Unbounded Being)?  

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The concept of trinity is not found in the Bible which Christians see as the word of God.

It is a man made concept which makes zero logical sense and they are not obligated to follow it, you can still be a Christian without believing in the concept of trinity.

 

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9 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Easy.

Tell them to read their own Gospels and keep track of who says what.

Matthew, Mark, Luke: Gospels say, Satan says, 'son of god'.

Now the two exception points are Matthew's 'Last Suppuer' and one Chr!stian telling has Peter speaking the Words of the Devil -which is why Jesus-a.s. calls Peter a "satan"; OR in another telling, Jesus-a.s. sees the shaytan behind Peter suggesting things and tells the satan assigned to Peter to "get behind me, Satan". None of this occurs in Mark or Luke.

The other exception is the opening of the "Secret Book of Mark" which has two(3?) verses removed to make the "Book of Mark". 

The Book of John is seminarily a "problem" because it mixes in the Words of the Devil quite often into the text. So John contradicts itself within chapters and also across chapters.

The other, holy spook/ghost, ask them what it is.

You don't have to make stuff up. One fallacy does not disprove another.

If you ask a Christian about a holy spook they are likely to tell you to walk away.

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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

How did the creation (with finite existence) come about from God (Unbounded Being)?  

And wouldn't they reply with a:
"Anything is possible if it's God. If he wills he can do anything and can even come in human flesh."

... perhaps?

Edited by King-Ali

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5 hours ago, IbnSina said:

The concept of trinity is not found in the Bible which Christians see as the word of God.

It is a man made concept which makes zero logical sense and they are not obligated to follow it, you can still be a Christian without believing in the concept of trinity.

 

 

Salam

The way Christianity works is not necessarily the same way that Islam works.  We should be careful not to make false comparisons.  Although an apple and an orange are both fruits and are both sweet, one cannot compare the two and say one that one is citrus and the other isn't and is therefore deficient.  This is the fallacy Muslims frequently make when attempting to assess or compare Christianity with Islam (and the converse is also true for Christians comparing their religion with Islam).  So, a point in case, the Bible doesn't hold the same status for Christians as the Quran does for Muslims.  The Quran is the Word of God made book, while as in Christianity the Word of God is Jesus himself (not the Bible).  So, it is fine if something as fundamental (or what "appears" to be fundamental) as the Doctrine of the Trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible (at least explicitly).  Secondly, Jesus (in Christianity) didn't come prima facie to teach an intellectual doctrine like we find in Islam with the Shahada and with the Chapter on Tawhid (i.e. Surat al-Ikhlas).  That job was or is left (if at all, or if needed) for the Church Fathers or in the inheritors of the message of Jesus Christ.    

As I have already alluded to above the Doctrine of the Trinity is not that necessary.  Jospeh Lumbard explains this pretty well.  And I will just let him finish the point.

And God knows best (Wallahu Alam).  

Ethereal

Edited by eThErEaL

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1 hour ago, King-Ali said:

And wouldn't they reply with a:
"Anything is possible if it's God. If he wills he can do anything and can even come in human flesh."

... perhaps?

This is a question for Muslims.  How did our creation (our world) come from God?

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8 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 

Salam

The way Christianity works is not necessarily the same way that Islam works.  We should be careful not to make false comparisons.  Although an apple and an orange are both fruits and are both sweet, one cannot compare the two and say one that one is citrus and the other isn't and is therefore deficient.  This is the fallacy Muslims frequently make when attempting to assess or compare Christianity with Islam (and the converse is also true for Christians comparing their religion with Islam).  So, a point in case, the Bible doesn't hold the same status for Christians as the Quran does for Muslims.  The Quran is the Word of God made book, while as in Christianity the Word of God is Jesus himself (not the Bible).  So, it is fine if something as fundamental (or what "appears" to be fundamental) as the Doctrine of the Trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible (at least explicitly).  Secondly, Jesus (in Christianity) didn't come prima facie to teach an intellectual doctrine like we find in Islam with the Shahada and with the Chapter on Tawhid (i.e. Surat al-Ikhlas).  That job was or is left (if at all, or if needed) for the Church Fathers or in the inheritors of the message of Jesus Christ.    

As I have already alluded to above the Doctrine of the Trinity is not that necessary.  Jospeh Lumbard explains this pretty well.  And I will just let him finish the point.

And God knows best (Wallahu Alam).  

Ethereal

Ws,

How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?

And if it is from men, on whos authority do you make is obligatory to follow?

Is the concept of trinity something that came after the time of prophet Jesus? Who did it come from?

Why do christians call the Bible "the holy Bible" if it is like you say? Then it is not holy.

Edited by IbnSina

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14 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

You don't have to make stuff up. One fallacy does not disprove another.

If you ask a Christian about a holy spook they are likely to tell you to walk away.

What is "made up" ?

Why did you avoid "Satan says" ?

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16 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

What is "made up" ?

Why did you avoid "Satan says" ?

Quote

Matthew, Mark, Luke: Gospels say, Satan says, 'son of god'.

Could you be a little more specific? This reads like a rag. 

According to the NT, Gabriel told Mary she would have a child and that this child would be called the son of God. Jesus is referenced many times as the son of God, not only by satan...In it's proper context, why would satan not know this?

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16 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

Could you be a little more specific? This reads like a rag. 

According to the NT, Gabriel told Mary she would have a child and that this child would be called the son of God. Jesus is referenced many times as the son of God, not only by satan...In it's proper context, why would satan not know this?

That is anecdotal.

Read through. Keep track of who-says-what. Preponderantly, Satan says s.o.g.(son of god), evil spirits say s.o.g, unclean spirits say s.o.g., Legion says s.o.g. ...

...and in addition to the Last Supper Scene in Matthew, near the end of Mark 6 Jesus again refers to Peter and Satan, denying the s.o.g. stuff.

He is also referred to as "son of Mary" in Mark and elsewhere refers to himself as the Son of Man.

Simple observation.

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8 hours ago, hasanhh said:

That is anecdotal.

Read through. Keep track of who-says-what. Preponderantly, Satan says s.o.g.(son of god), evil spirits say s.o.g, unclean spirits say s.o.g., Legion says s.o.g. ...

...and in addition to the Last Supper Scene in Matthew, near the end of Mark 6 Jesus again refers to Peter and Satan, denying the s.o.g. stuff.

He is also referred to as "son of Mary" in Mark and elsewhere refers to himself as the Son of Man.

Simple observation.

I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere, but how to focus on satan and ignore the rest? I know it makes a better case, but...something about the whole truth...

The Old Testament speaks of the sons of God, Jesus is called a son of God, Jesus refers to everyone as children of God, calls God His Father, (what's the difference?) later on apostles tell us how to become sons of God,

All that comes to an end because an unclean spirit acknowledges the same?

The whole "s.o.g." thing is totally over rated.

It's an exaggerated stance meant to divide Islam from Christianity and taught to be treated with disgust, therefore sliding the actual point of it all by without notice... back to the mat.

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11 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere, but how to focus on satan and ignore the rest?

You obviously chose to ignore Satan. Why? Inconvenience?

The Old Testament speaks of the sons of God, Jesus is called a son of God, Jesus refers to everyone as children of God, calls God His Father, (what's the difference?) later on apostles tell us how to become sons of God, But is it recorded that Moses, Abraham or the others spoke the Words of the Devil ? "sons of elohim", Genesis 6 were the "fallen angels" of the early church. That is, "Devils". 

Jesus refers to himself as "son of Man".

Gaylatians 3:26 a 'child of god' is defined as believing in Jesus as an "everything" rather than adhere to the First Commandment. Personally, you can have your idol-witchdoctor in coloured glass, l'll stay with the God-of-Noah, Allah-s.w.t. John 12:19

All that comes to an end because an unclean spirit acknowledges the same?  Not the "end", but the beginning of church dogma.

The whole "s.o.g." thing is totally over rated. We should not be aware of the Words of the Devil? Why? Because Satan says?  

It's an exaggerated stance meant to divide Islam from Christianity and taught to be treated with disgust, therefore sliding the actual point of it all by without notice... back to the mat.  "Exaggerated" Denial ? Islam is not like chr!stianity.  Never will a believer, Jew, 1st Commandment Christian, Muslim, or  just Abrahamic in attitude and actions ... never will any of us yield to the Words of the Devil or admit that "Satan says, ..." is anything but a warning.

.

Edited by hasanhh

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On 7/25/2017 at 8:30 PM, IbnSina said:

How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?

1

 

 

Quote

And if it is from men, on whos authority do you make is obligatory to follow?

 

 

Quote

Is the concept of trinity something that came after the time of prophet Jesus? Who did it come from?

 

Salam,

Yes.  The doctrine came after the time of Jesus Christ.  It is like many of the doctrines of Islam (which have come after the time of the Prophet (S))..... think of the Aqeeda (Creedal) Texts of Shi and Sunni Islam. Christians also needed to have a formal creed, and that is what the Church Fathers set out to do.  Who put together the Aqida of Muslims?  Did the Prophet (S) or the Shia Imams (as) do that?  Of course not.  It was the scholars of Islam that did that (and for good reason, it was needed for as a clarification and as an explicit response to questions and confusions that arose from the Muslim Ummah) .  But I am just giving an analogy between Islam and Christianity and as such showing the similarity between Aqida and Christian Creed will not be a one to one correspondence.  A difference (for instance) is that In Christianity the Church Fathers are given a kind of spiritual authority from Heaven through the institution of the Church (and this believed by Catholics or or by the Eastern Orthodox Church...and someone can correct me if I am wrong about this).  So what the Church Fathers say carries (or should carry) more weight in Christainity than what some Scholar of Islam says about Islamic Doctrine in Islam (unless of course, we have in mind Muslims who are recognized as Awliya...those besides the Imams (as) of course)       

So the doctrine may not have always been there but the reality of the Trinity (for Christians) was always there for it is an eternal reality or Truth (as they will say...for those who believe in it).  That reality, if truly understood, is not in conflict with the perspective of Divine Unity.  Most Christians don't have the capacity to understand that reality... but this is the case with most Muslims who don't have the capacity to understand the reality of Tawhid.  How many Muslims truly understand the reality of Tawhid?  Wouldn't you agree that our understanding of tawhid is like idolatry when compared to the way the Imams (peace and blessings be upon them) have understood or embodied tawhid?

 

 

Quote

Why do christians call the Bible "the holy Bible" if it is like you say? Then it is not holy.

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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20 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

The Quran says: " Cease three!"

Actually,

isnt it interesting....

 

the Quran says:  Do not say "Three"...  for that is better for you.

 

My understanding:

It is better if they stop being so hooked to the Doctrine of Trinity given that it requires a deep understanding of metaphysics to see Ultinate Unity of God within it.  So it is better if they simply desist, it will be much easier for them.  

:)

Edited by eThErEaL

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16 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Actually,

isnt it interesting....

 

the Quran says:  Do not say "Three"...  for that is better for you.

 

My understanding:

It is better if they stop being so hooked to the Doctrine of Trinity given that it requires a deep understanding of metaphysics to see Ultinate Unity of God within it.  So it is better if they simply desist, it will be much easier for them.  

:)

They feel guided by Allah just as we do. 

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