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Here is the flaw in fundamental reasoning/logic of these arguments.

Imagine, someone wants to challenge the theory of Relativity and he shows up at Phd lecture and starts arguing with the Professor. But this person does not even have the basic knowledge of physics. Do you think the professor is obligated to answer, even if this person creates a big scene that no one can answer my question?

Now imagine a Phd in Physics shows up to the first grade and starts a lecture on special relativity in the same way, using the same terminology that he/she uses in his/her regular Phd Physics class. Does this makes sense?

So, If a person wants to learn or he/she wants to teach us. He/she will follow the basic logic/rules of a learner or a teacher. He/she will start learning the basic and build from that, similarly if he/she wants to teach us, he/she will start with teaching the basics and build us up to the next level.

Some people do this on the internet, and we see this happening in different section, some  will come in and only question Phd Topics, while they can’t even understand basic concept of Prophethood. Demand and answer, if it's given, they can comprehend it, still will demand that their quest be satisfied.

People who are averse to Divine Religion, and follow their own Religion. If religion is defined as a set of Belief system, and God and the ultimate Reality.

Their Religion is their belief system, which is in some cases ‘I” , or ‘Me” . Meaning whatever I feel like it, is my system and I will only submit to, be a slave to only one ultimate Authority which is ‘I” or ‘Me”.

They Only worship their desires and wishes and needs. Their desires/wishes and their belief of right or wrong is their god and their constitution. “Self proclaimed Deity”. That is their Religion and their god.

Now to reject the Divine Kingdom and Divine God. There is this theory of Random chance and I exist out of thin air, everything came together by chance or was random.But when you ask them to qualify it, they will deflect ( read the first page). Because there is no randomness out there in the Universe. People who study this will attest to it. The System which turns stardust into everything we see or is known to us went through a process. When we are here on this rock everything is a process, and it starts from basic processes to complex. It does not jump around. 1,2,3, 4 5

We don’t go from 1 to 5 without going thru 2, 3, 4. Same is true with these arguments.

We can talk about morals and all the other stuff, and do a comparative study but the issue here is that an entity came into existence out of thin air, a product of chance, and coincidence, yet this entity ascribes all the learning of the people to process not Random self realization or actualization.

So, a person with the belief that he/she is the Ultimate Authority, with its own constitution will reject any outside influence and will argue against it , by pulling quotes from google to keep us off tract. Person who exists in this situation and is content with been  here and disintegrating and become nothing. What is the meaning  Humanity, Moral, ethics, Love - These will be hilarious conversation(s). Because it's against their fundamental belief system. Unless they are creating a smoke screen and trying very hard to hide their true identity by working under the cover of Atheism/Agnosticism.   Things do not add up here. Unless some basic concepts are clarified, it looks like a situation of they will keep pulling of stuff from google and throwing at us, or doing “drive bys”thru different Threads/Topics just for the fun of it. Try to have them commit to a formal process to understanding will not work. It's because they can not, in a coherent way explain their fundamental beliefs. Everything they say it's contradicting their own fundamental concepts. ( read the thread and pay attention to logic and  you will see it) one the one hand it's all about me, and on the other its other humans, and progeny and planet. One hand i will disintegrate , and this is my only random chance and no afterlife but i an also interested in educating others etc…..

They will throw a question, and expect and demand and answer, while they reject to discuss the basics. Most people here are laypeople, we only commit to sensitive / high priority topic or issue. Otherwise we see someone spreading doubts we might try to gauge if this is worth getting involved and if we get the sense it's not worth it, we might just post a link as an Anti Virus (counter measure ). Because arguing for the sake of argument sto to make someone look bad or loose is not our priority.

Unless we get some clarity and commitment. If there is a need, just provide a general counter argument link , so others don’t get misguided.

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4 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I mean where did humans get this sense of right or wrong from? These arguments such as social pressure, natural selection, survival are all weak and can never explain the foundation of morality.

Right and wrong are subjective terms, I have explained that in an earlier post. You need to try and understand what other people say in order to better communicate your views.

But to answer your question (again) humans get their sense of morality from living with each other.

 

1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

@Quisant

What is God?  Please share with us how you define "God".
Secondly, Do you think "God" is a creation of human mind?
 

 

I’m non-religious, so I don’t have any personal definition of God. 
Perhaps a meme in the minds of human beings... or an imaginary entity in the mind of believers.

 

There is something I would like to ask you, if I may.

Why do you suppose God needs to use intermidiaries, prophets, messangers in order to pass on His message?

God can give each one of us our lives, our intelligence, our morals, our five senses, our soul, our instincts, our intuitions but cannot give us His message??

For a God that can say 'be and it is' giving the message to everybody simultaneously at every point in history is no more difficult and requires no more effort than giving it to one person at one time.

Why is that, do you think?

ws.

*

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6 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 

I’m non-religious, so I don’t have any personal definition of God. 

If you do not believe in a Divine God. 

Why would anything else, how, what, where, workings of this Divine God,  would be important and what purpose would it serve.? 

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3 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Perhaps a meme in the minds of human beings... or an imaginary entity in the mind of believers.

:) So you're a true atheist. 

Do you hold the belief of common atheists about the origin of systems like Universe & Life? Like many of your fellows says that we don't know. 
Or are you sure that there is no creator?
 

 

10 minutes ago, Quisant said:

There is something I would like to ask you, if I may.

Why do you suppose God needs to use intermidiaries, prophets, messangers in order to pass on His message?

God can give each one of us our lives, our intelligence, our morals, our five senses, our soul, our instincts, our intuitions but cannot give us His message??

For a God that can say 'be and it is' giving the message to everybody simultaneously at every point in history is no more difficult and requires no more effort than giving it to one person at one time.

Why is that, do you think?

Lets discuss the term "God" first, We will include these questions into discussions later.


 

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believer :a person who has a religious belief or who strongly believes that something is right or good:

So, according to secular def: everyone is a believer, some believe in themselves others believe in Divine God. 

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

Do you hold the belief of common atheists about the origin of systems like Universe & Life? Like many of your fellows says that we don't know. 

I believe the universe evolved from the Big Bang, completely independently of what it was like before. I don't know what was before then but I am convinced something existed. Nothing comes from nothing.

You appear to assume that there was once nothing, and then there was something.

Why do you assume that?

 

1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

Or are you sure that there is no creator?
 

Give me an example of something, anything you believe is a direct creation from God.  

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2 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Why would anything else, how, what, where, workings of this Divine God,  would be important and what purpose would it serve.? 

I do not understand your question. Please rephrase it.

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1 hour ago, S.M.H.A. said:

believer :a person who has a religious belief or who strongly believes that something is right or good:

So, according to secular def: everyone is a believer, some believe in themselves others believe in Divine God. 

Atheism can't be true or false because atheism is a lack of belief, not a claim.

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59 minutes ago, Quisant said:

I believe the universe evolved from the Big Bang, completely independently of what it was like before. I don't know what was before then but I am convinced something existed. Nothing comes from nothing.

What is your position on Life?

Lets see your stated position for Universe. Point is that how can you say that Universe evolved from bingbang irrespective of what it was before (completely independently)? Do you think causalty never existed before big bang? What caused the universe to expand? And why not it remained in the state of singularity? 

Secondly, what made the singularity hot & dense? :) We also need to discuss energy once again, i guess.

1 hour ago, Quisant said:

You appear to assume that there was once nothing, and then there was something.

Why do you assume that?

No, that was never my position. There always exist a thing, like of which there is nothing. So we are agreed that nothing comes from nothing.

1 hour ago, Quisant said:

Give me an example of something, anything you believe is a direct creation from God.  

There are many, the example of first human being known as Adam. 

Surah Sad, Verse 75:

قَالَ يَا إِبْلِيسُ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَن تَسْجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقْتُ بِيَدَيَّ أَسْتَكْبَرْتَ أَمْ كُنتَ مِنَ الْعَالِينَ

He said: O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?

(English - Shakir)

 

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2 hours ago, Quisant said:

Atheism can't be true or false because atheism is a lack of belief, not a claim.

What is your definition /understanding of Atheism?

Who and what is an Athiest? 

Clearly and fully define these two, with out using words that, one would need a dictionary for, meaning in the most simplest words/forms, that even an uneducated person can understand and grasp the concepts, so there is no ambiguity or confusion.

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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1 hour ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

So do you think there is no such thing as absolute morality? or absolute right or wrong?

If by absolute morality you mean that gays should be always be thrown to their death from a high cliff, that apostasy should be for ever punishable by death, that people's hands and feet should be cut off...I don't think there is absolute morality.

But there are so many of us in the world that some form of ethical moral code, discussed and agreed, should always be in place.
 

45 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

What is your position on Life?

The explanation for the origin of man is covered in evolution. 
As is the origin of our ancestors, down to the origin of the first single-cell organisms. The origin of those is covered by abiogenesis. A growing and exciting field of study. 
The formation of Earth and our solar system is covered by both Geology and Cosmology, which in turn is a subset of physics and astrophysics. 
Both of which also study the origin and formation of our universe, including the Big Bang. 
 

 

46 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Lets see your stated position for Universe.

From my earlier post:

The Big Bang theory describes how the observable universe expanded from an early hyper-dense energetic state. 
The theory does not include a description of how or why that state came to be. There are many speculative hypotheses, including quantum fluctuations and Brane Theory, that attempt to answer that question, but as yet we don't know. 
 

48 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

There always exist a thing, like of which there is nothing. So we are agreed that nothing comes from nothing.

Nothing comes from nothing except ' a thing, like of which there is nothing' ....blatant special pleading.

 

51 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

There are many, the example of first human being known as Adam. 

So you believe that God created  Adam from mud, Jinns from smokeless fire and the world from nothing?  

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11 minutes ago, Quisant said:

But there are so many of us in the world that some form of ethical moral code, discussed and agreed, should always be in place.

Now you are saying that some sort of moral code should be agreed upon. Didn't you just say that morality is subjective? Who decides what moral codes should be in place? 

You are contradicting yourself man. Maybe you need to change the model you believe in.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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4 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

You are contradicting yourself man. Maybe you need to change the model you believe in.

Debating believers is often like trying to play chess with a pigeon - it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory.

Glad I made you feel better.   :)

Must finish now. Saturday evening waiting. See you tomorrow.

 

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On 7/20/2017 at 9:52 AM, Quisant said:

I am also a curious person and enjoy other people's opinions.

Debating Believers or above? ( also I sense a condescending tone this word is used 'Believers" ), I inform you above of the secular definition of a believer. I point this out for a reason, your claim of of a nice fireside chat is accurate).

Also you used this word above, here is a partial def , you can look up the full using google

"Many approaches to abiogenesis investigate how self-replicating molecules, or their components, came into existence. It is generally thought that current life on Earth is descended from an RNA world,[17] although RNA-based life may not have been the first life to have existed.[18][19] The classic Miller–Urey experiment and similar research demonstrated that most amino acids, the basic chemical constituents of the proteins used in all living organisms, can be synthesized from inorganic compounds under conditions intended to replicate those of the early Earth. Various external sources of energy that may have triggered these reactions have been proposed, including lightning and radiation. Other approaches ("metabolism-first" hypotheses) focus on understanding how catalysis in chemical systems on the early Earth might have provided the precursor moleculesnecessary for self-replication.[20] Complex organic molecules have been found in the Solar System and in interstellar space, and these molecules may have provided starting material for the development of life on Earth.[21][22][23][24]......"

So, do not slip between, Concepts, Theories, Observations and Technalities. Utilize one approach, where you feel you have no solid data you utilize concepts/theories. Be consistent.

 

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On 7/20/2017 at 9:09 AM, SlaveOfAllah14 said:

That's a very simplified and naive conclusion. Atheists do believe in a cause, they just don't call it God, they call it the big bang, or energy or some field, and they're continually studying to find it. 

Is there something wrong with continually studying and asking questions to discover our origins?

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On 7/20/2017 at 8:41 AM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Looks like an interesting documentary. Inshallah I'll watch it when I get time.

Atheism is a serious cancer which is spreading everywhere. It is going to get worse and worse over time. So many young Muslims are growing up confused (I too was confused at one stage), and in all honesty they are no different to the Christian youth who take religion as a joke. You see so many Muslims who are literally adopting all the bad traits of the Western culture. Dating, night clubbing, music, going to bars and free mixing has become so common that Muslims are starting to question Islam. Parents are so confused and they often just let their kids do whatever.

Life is so fast paced, and it is making everyone more and more stupid. No one even dares to question his very own existence. Everyone just loves to dance and loosen up. You hear sayings such as "take it easy", "live your life man", "tonight is gonna be the night", "go with the flow".

This lifestyle is very dangerous and very sad. Our communities have a big part to play to help the future generations. The future of the Muslim ummah is our youth. We need to do everything to help the confused youth. 

Atheism isnt ideal with respect to theistic philosophy and beliefs. But I would rather people be dancing and having fun, than...yes I will go there, killing eachother as these crazy wahabi in the world are doing today (who arent atheists).

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1 minute ago, iCambrian said:

But I would rather people be dancing and having fun, than...yes I will go there, killing eachother as these crazy wahabi in the world are doing today (who arent atheists).

Yeah killing in the name of religion is far worse than those who have an atheist lifestyle.

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On 7/20/2017 at 10:16 AM, IbnMariam said:

If you are an atheist, you have no basis to believe in an objective morality where rules that govern human behaviour are inherently true, and no basis to believe that any particular action is right or wrong and will lead to any divine punishment or reward. So I ask you, what is wrong with extinguishing the lights of curiosity? Or imprisoning minds and brainwashing into accepting intellectual mediocrity? Or blind obedience? Or discouraging imagination and questions? Please justify what you're saying.

You and I, never believed in say, Zues.  But it never took away from our moral nature. Nor did, acquiring belief in God, make us more moral than we had been, say, the day prior.

And of course, just as there are moral and good religious people, there are also immoral and bad religious people.

The question of morality and how we act, or what defines how we act, is independent of the question of if we believe in God or not.

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There are good people, and bad people in this world.  Some aspects of atheism may promote negative morality. Other aspects may promote positive or more God like or good moral actions.  

A cancer would be evil. Satan himself. Atheism and Theism, or any philosophic mindsets, are just mediums through which satan, the true cancer, acts. And there are so many dynamic forms of atheism and theism, that satan can take hold in different ways. And there are aspects that may be within both, that also combat sin or sinful practices.

 

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2 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

You and I, never believed in say, Zues.  But it never took away from our moral nature. Nor did, acquiring belief in God, make us more moral than we had been, say, the day prior.

And of course, just as there are moral and good religious people, there are also immoral and bad religious people.

The question of morality and how we act, or what defines how we act, is independent of the question of if we believe in God or not.

I think you're missing my point, and I disagree, the question of morality is dependent on Allah. On what basis does one judge an action as moral or immoral? Rules need to be established, please provide a framework for establishing these rules, and justify this framework.

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56 minutes ago, Quisant said:

The explanation for the origin of man is covered in evolution. 
As is the origin of our ancestors, down to the origin of the first single-cell organisms. The origin of those is covered by abiogenesis. A growing and exciting field of study. 
The formation of Earth and our solar system is covered by both Geology and Cosmology, which in turn is a subset of physics and astrophysics. 
Both of which also study the origin and formation of our universe, including the Big Bang. 
 

 

56 minutes ago, Quisant said:

From my earlier post:

The Big Bang theory describes how the observable universe expanded from an early hyper-dense energetic state. 
The theory does not include a description of how or why that state came to be. There are many speculative hypotheses, including quantum fluctuations and Brane Theory, that attempt to answer that question, but as yet we don't know
 

Ok, you position is now clear to me. I will get back to this.

56 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Nothing comes from nothing except ' a thing, like of which there is nothing' ....blatant special pleading.

Not pleading but a fact. We call it wajib ul wajood. I will discuss that too tomorrow in-sha Allah.

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