Jump to content
shiaman14

Caliph Umar: Co-Author of Quran???

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

On 7/20/2017 at 6:40 AM, Unforgiven said:

Sulayman ibn Qays reports ‘Ali to have said:

Not a verse of the Qur’an was revealed to the Messenger of God without his reciting and dictating it to me, and without my writing it in my own hand. He taught me its (the Qur’an’s) interpretation and exposition, its nasikh and manasukeh, and its muhkam and mutashabih. He prayed to God Almighty to teach me to comprehend and memorize it. Hence I neither forgot a verse from the Book of God Almighty nor any knowledge that he dictated to me and which I wrote.

I once read Imam Ali had compiled the Qur'an after the prophet died,it was called Mus'haf Ali,any one knows about it or denies it ? reasons ?

Thanks.

Sure, this is a fairly common belief that in fact Imam Ali did transcribe the Quran during the life of the Prophet and wrote an exegesis (tafseer). The order was Allah --> Jibrael --> Prophet (saw) --> Ali (as).

This is very different from Umar --> Allah --> Jibrael --> Prophet.

See the difference?

On 7/20/2017 at 9:29 AM, wmehar2 said:

Walaimum as Asalaam,  I'm well thank you for asking.    I do hope you're doing well too.

I'm gonna have to disagree, if this Bukhari Hadith had been about Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib AS, I do not think non Shia muslims would use it as a reason to call anyone mushrik.  Perhals I'm naive but i dont see disdain in the Sunni world of Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib AS such that Bukhari would be labeled as a mushrik in this context.  Tahreef is a subject thats apples to organges here, and Sunnis with their belief emphatically reject the Quran changing as i thought the Shia dont as well?   I dont know who Majlisi is, but I would hope the grading of the Hadith of the quran changing was graded untrustworthy or very weak at best in his view.  If not,  then i can see why he was treated as such.  It would shake my belief and many others if the preservation of the Quran is comprised.   Because God said himself He would preserve it,  and A hadith that contradicts that immediately should be categorized as fabricated and a waste of space in any text.  What business does that have then in a book of Hadith other than to cast doubt? I need to understand the Hadith collectors state of mind  and reasoning if theres no clause about authenticity in his book.

 If this exact hadith was in a shia hadith book and attributed to Imam Ali (as), for sure the author and shias would be labelled as mushrik as we often are.

I agree tahreef is a different topic but jus the Sunni belief that Allah revealed the Quran in 7 huruf and Caliph Uthman consolidated them into 1 is enough to say there has been tahreef.

On 7/20/2017 at 9:29 AM, wmehar2 said:

I still do not see how "Allah agreed with mean" meaning that he advised God.

If I stood here and looked at the sky and  said, its going to rain it seems.  And it does,  would it not be appropriate to think I guess God saw it so, too.  We must be in agreement.  

If it didn't rain, simply God did not agree. 

And if Umar said God agreed with me in 3 things, I guess the rest of the things God doesn't agree with  him.

To your last bit about Comparing the Imam to Umar,  Umar was at the least inquisitive like any normal being.  I can plainly see many people approaching the Prophet SAW, saying "what will we do about such and such, or man we are starving, "etc.  Whether or not a verse is revealed soon after or way later is independent of them.   We ALL Allah swt revealed bit by bit for a Reason and not all at once.

Imam Ali AS had his trust and patience/faith, I get that.  I can't compare he and the Imam, but I can compare him to any other joe and I dont find offence in them here.

Back to this topic, there is a huge difference in saying, "I agree with Allah" and saying "Allah agrees with me". It seems like often times Caliph Umar thought about changing Allah's laws and/or Quran but the fear of people stopped him:

Abd Allah b. ‘Abbas said:
‘Umar b. al-Khattab gave an address saying: Allah sent Muhammad (ﷺ) with truth and sent down the Books of him, and the verse of stoning was included in what He sent down to him. We read it and memorized it. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had people stoned to death and we have done it also since his death. I am afraid the people might say with the passage of time: We do not find the verse of stoning in the Books of Allah, and thus they stray by abandoning a duty which Allah had received. Stoning is a duty laid down (by Allah) for married men and women who commit fornication when proof is established, or if there is pregnancy, or a confession. I swear by Allah, had it not been so that the people might say: ‘Umar made an addition to Allah’s Book, I would have written it (there).
Sunan Abi Dawud
Book 40, Hadith 68

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/40/68

The above relates well to the issue of tahreef (verse of stoning) as well as Caliph Umar's willingness to change the Quran if it wasn't for the fear of the people. One would think that the fear of Allah would stop a person from making changes to the Quran.

So while you and I may randomly say it is going to rain and it rains, neither one of us  want to change the Quran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

but jus the Sunni belief that Allah revealed the Quran in 7 huruf and Caliph Uthman consolidated them into 1 is enough to say there has been tahreef.

Imam 'Ali ibn Abi Talib AS did not let Uthman release a final compilation that he did not Approve of himself, as Imam Ali AS was an integral part of the compilation process.  There was many attempts, one after another Imam Ali rejected the iterations until he was ok with it.

Your examples after of the stoning passages, are evidence that 'Umar can never Advise Allah SWT.  And it seems Allah SWT stopped Umar from making a change and keeping His promise to us that he preserved it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Imam 'Ali ibn Abi Talib AS did not let Uthman release a final compilation that he did not Approve of himself, as Imam Ali AS was an integral part of the compilation process.  There was many attempts, one after another Imam Ali rejected the iterations until he was ok with it.

Your examples after of the stoning passages, are evidence that 'Umar can never Advise Allah SWT.  And it seems Allah SWT stopped Umar from making a change and keeping His promise to us that he preserved it.

Allah didnt stop Caliph Umar. The fear of people stopped Caliph Umar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Allah didnt stop Caliph Umar. The fear of people stopped Caliph Umar.

And is not Allah SWT the cause of everything that happens ? By his permission everything happens.

Ill put it to you this way, if you believe Allah SWT promised the preserve the quran, and we're talking about a matter of whether it was altered with a stoning verse, then it was by Gods will that Umars fear stopped him from inlcuding  or excluding additional verses.  

In all matters of Preservation of the Quran, Gods in charge.

Edited by wmehar2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

And is not Allah SWT the cause of everything that happens ? By his permission everything happens.

Ill put it to you this way, if you believe Allah SWT promised the preserve the quran, and we're talking about a matter of whether it was altered with a stoning verse, then it was by Gods will that Umars fear stopped him from inlcuding  or excluding additional verses.  

In all matters of Preservation of the Quran, Gods in charge.

Ah brother, now we are getting into Pre-Destination vs. Free Will discussion.

Did Yazeed kill Imam Hussain with Allah's permission?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

Ah brother, now we are getting into Pre-Destination vs. Free Will discussion.

Did Yazeed kill Imam Hussain with Allah's permission?

This could be a matter of difference of beliefs im afraid, and perhaps an end to our discussion.

I'm of the belief that we have Free Will, but confined to Allah SWT's plan as He is the greatest of planners. He understands all of our choices and knows us well enough to know what we'll make for a decision.   How can the creator not know what his creation will do ?

As such He plans His works.

I believe nothing happens without the will of Allah SWT, He guides whom He chooses to guide, and doesn't for whom He chooses not to guide.

The sequence of events that transpired since inception of creation are because God has allowed it so. In my belief.

God sent angels down for Muslims to fight and defend Islam, if He wanted Imam Hussein AS, he would have sent angels down to stop it, In my opinion. 

I believe the purpose for the martyrdom of Imam Husseim AS is to show or teach us the the same way his father and brother did by example. That there there is a time and place  where we must fight and a time we must not.

Because of his martyrdom, Shiasm identity and history has transcended beyond writings and words in paper and even stone, it has cemented a footprint into the ground so God willing one day, a laymen sunni or muslim can stop and question his deen by understanding events that cant ever be forgotten.  Imv.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Dr. Alireza Either your religion of 'shia muslim' on your profile is wrong or you are making a mockery here by your most recent post, which is not approved. Please explain how you can call yourself a Shia and say what you just wrote in praising the caliphs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • Hello brothers and sisters. I feel like I am in dire need of help. My hatred and the feeling of jealously towards my relatives and slowly now, towards others are increasing. I have lived a lonely difficult life, where I wasn't allowed to communicate with others much. Wasn't allowed to go out much. Basically say at home alone most of the time. I watch my cousins get everything they want. I'm not jealous over this but, the fact they travel a lot. Something I've never done. I wish to go to hajj and I wish to go to Iraq especially, so I can meet my grandfather. My grandmother passed away, so I never had a chance to meet her. I had a chance to go to Iraq this year, excited to meet my grandfather. I was meant to go with my relatives, but they had secretly planned everything, excluding me out. Which made me sad, as I know they are not fans of Iraq, where as I love the beauty and the history of Iraq. Even though I've never been, I know in my heart that its a unique place. My one chance is gone, I'm afraid I've lost my chance to meet my grandfather as I heard he is sick. I can't go unless for another five years. Which breaks my heart, and now I have tried to push away these negative feelings I've had for them. But now its just, worse. I can't help but think bad thoughts. I just don't want my heart to turn dark, as I've retreated myself from communication towards others and stopped caring for everyone as I'm continuously being betrayed occasionally. I don't really have anyone a around me to teach me or help me Islamically. I'm trying hard to be patient and humble and forgiving and kind. I'm losing that side of me. But I'm so alone. I'm reading the Quran and hadith's, but I'm not sure as to what I should be reading. There are other things before that triggered all of this, but I'll end up writing a book on here. I would appreciate anything. Please and thank you. 
    • I didn't include the chain in english, sorry. دَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الْبَرْقِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي هَاشِمٍ دَاوُدَ بْنِ الْقَاسِمِ الْجَعْفَرِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ الثَّانِي A group from our companions, from Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Barqi, from Abi Hashim Dawud bin Qasim al-Ja'fari, from Abi Ja'far the second (al-Jawad (as)) Yes Sunni laymen are innocent, however their "respected figures," are not.
    • Guest solvethis
      JazakAllah for your kind answer, i appreciate it.But i dont wear ethnic clothing.JazakAllah for your kind words
    • I'm so sorry. Can it still be operable?  She is in my prayers
    • How can they be misguided when they believe in same pillars of the faith and books of hadiths?
×