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Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī

Sunni/Shia Debate-Mohammed Hijab vs Sayyid Haamid

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9 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

Nor does it mean that if there is number of rakats in salat, it must be mentioned in Qur'an.

Well, that makes no sense. That's like saying the medication you are taking is required even tough the doctor never prescribed it.

Edited by iavswn

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2 minutes ago, iavswn said:

Then retract your statement about me making an assumption. 

This is what you said right:

If Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى wanted us to make a set number of Rakat while making salat then he would of mandated it in the Qur'an.

Why it is necessary for Allah to show it in Qur'an, why not Prophet teach the people about the numbers of it without mention it in Quran? It does not contradict, because Allah clearly said we should also obey the Prophet (saws) and that the Prophet explain what was revealed. These are nothing but tests from Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.

It is dangerous of making assumptions that He would do this or that, whatever Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى do is what He do by His own will.

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I guess we need to ask brother @iavswn how many times a day he prays and how many rakat in each prayer. But then we should also ask how he prays each rakat.

As a matter of fact other than fajr - are zuhr, asr,maghrib, isha specifically mentioned in the Quran or does the Quran just allude to their times.

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On 9/15/2017 at 3:10 PM, Dhulfikar said:

We obey Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and we obey the Prophet Muhammad (saws) and they will teach us whatever they give.

1. The sole duty of the messenger is deliverance. That which was being delivered was the Book i.e. Quran.

5:92 You shall obey God and obey the messenger and beware; if you turn away, then know that THE SOLE DUTY OF  OUR MESSENGER IS CLEAQR DELIVERY (of the message of God). 

64:12 Obey God and obey the messenger. If you shall turn away then THE SOLE DUTY OF THE MESSENGER IS CLEAR DELIVERY.

2. The Qur'an instructs us not to follow other than that which has been sent down.

7:3 Closely FOLLOW WHAT HAS BEEN SENT DOWN to you (i.e. the believers) from your Lord, and do not ever follow patrons apart from Him; little are you mindful!

3. There is only one Sunnah, the Sunnah of Allah.

33:62 You will find that there is NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THE SUNNA OF Allah.

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1 minute ago, iavswn said:

1. The sole duty of the messenger is deliverance. That which was being delivered was the Book i.e. Quran.

5:92 You shall obey God and obey the messenger and beware; if you turn away, then know that THE SOLE DUTY OF  OUR MESSENGER IS CLEAQR DELIVERY (of the message of God). 

64:12 Obey God and obey the messenger. If you shall turn away then THE SOLE DUTY OF THE MESSENGER IS CLEAR DELIVERY.

2. The Qur'an instructs us not to follow other than that which has been sent down.

7:3 Closely FOLLOW WHAT HAS BEEN SENT DOWN to you (i.e. the believers) from your Lord, and do not ever follow patrons apart from Him; little are you mindful!

3. There is only one Sunnah, the Sunnah of Allah.

33:62 You will find that there is NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THE SUNNA OF Allah.

I have had this discussion before. Surely you are also not saying that the Prophet (saw) is supposed to deliver the message only and not teach it. Please tell me you are not saying that...

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17 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

@iavswn - "hasbona kitaballah" does not work. If you have ever read any book other than the Quran ever - you have defied your own statement.

How would replacing the words of Allah with science books, literary works, technical manuals, etc.. not make one an Atheist?

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1 hour ago, iavswn said:

How would replacing the words of Allah with science books, literary works, technical manuals, etc.. not make one an Atheist?

Have you ever read any other book than the Quran?

If yes, then clearly Quran is not sufficient for you.

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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

I have had this discussion before. Surely you are also not saying that the Prophet (saw) is supposed to deliver the message only and not teach it. Please tell me you are not saying that...

We don't have complete certainty on what the Prophet's teachings were since so many hadeeths have been fabricated (Maudu`). NOT that we are suppose to have hadeeths even to begin with. The prophet was firmly against his teachings being written down.

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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

Have you ever read any other book than the Quran?

If yes, then clearly Quran is not sufficient for you.

I'll answer your question after you answer mine.  Fair is fair. :D

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1 hour ago, iavswn said:

1. The sole duty of the messenger is deliverance. That which was being delivered was the Book i.e. Quran.

5:92 You shall obey God and obey the messenger and beware; if you turn away, then know that THE SOLE DUTY OF  OUR MESSENGER IS CLEAQR DELIVERY (of the message of God). 

64:12 Obey God and obey the messenger. If you shall turn away then THE SOLE DUTY OF THE MESSENGER IS CLEAR DELIVERY.

2. The Qur'an instructs us not to follow other than that which has been sent down.

7:3 Closely FOLLOW WHAT HAS BEEN SENT DOWN to you (i.e. the believers) from your Lord, and do not ever follow patrons apart from Him; little are you mindful!

3. There is only one Sunnah, the Sunnah of Allah.

33:62 You will find that there is NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THE SUNNA OF Allah.

Brother also:

[We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.[Quran 16:44]

We need to follow only Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad (saws) explanations to us of the verses that was revealed.

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1 hour ago, iavswn said:

How would replacing the words of Allah with science books, literary works, technical manuals, etc.. not make one an Atheist?

It would make you a mushrik and not an atheist.

But when we read those books, we are not replacing the Quran with those books as our book of spiritual guidance.

But you are speciifically saying that the Book of Allah is Sufficient, so I am asking if only the Quran is enough, then you become a mushrik every time you read another book.

This doesnt apply to me because I dont say "Hasbona Kitaballah".

so now your turn:

1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

Have you ever read any other book than the Quran?

If yes, then clearly Quran is not sufficient for you.

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1 hour ago, iavswn said:

We don't have complete certainty on what the Prophet's teachings were since so many hadeeths have been fabricated (Maudu`). NOT that we are suppose to have hadeeths even to begin with. The prophet was firmly against his teachings being written down.

that is not what I asked brother. When the Prophet delivered his message, was he allowed to and supposed to teach and explain the message OR just deliver?

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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

It would make you a mushrik and not an atheist.

But when we read those books, we are not replacing the Quran with those books as our book of spiritual guidance.

But you are speciifically saying that the Book of Allah is Sufficient, so I am asking if only the Quran is enough, then you become a mushrik every time you read another book.

This doesnt apply to me because I dont say "Hasbona Kitaballah".

so now your turn:

Yes, I have. I got a book shelf full of science books, law books,etc. The point I was making though is I don't need any of them to understand my religion nor have I have replaced the words of Allah with any of them. The Qur'an alone is sufficient.

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Quote

We don't have complete certainty on what the Prophet's teachings were since so many hadeeths have been fabricated (Maudu`). NOT that we are suppose to have hadeeths even to begin with. The prophet was firmly against his teachings being written down.

But at least mutawatir hadiths are very important and can't be denied.

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5 minutes ago, iavswn said:

Yes, I have. I got a book shelf full of science books, law books, bibles,etc. The point I was making though is I don't need any of them to understand my religion nor have I have replaced the words of Allah with any of them. The Qur'an alone is sufficient.

So your statement is really re-defined now. From "The Qur'an alone is sufficient" to "The Qur'an alone is sufficient to understand my religion".

For everything else, there are other books.

But now we have a problem in that everything is in the Quran so why the need for science books and law books. We will have to further update your statement to "The Qur'an alone is sufficient to understand my religion but it is not sufficient for anything else."

Is that what you are saying?

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1 hour ago, iavswn said:

You are implying this makes prophets a source of the law when in fact it does not. There is nothing in this Ayat about prophets being a source of law. In terms of the prophets this Ayat only mandates belief in the prophets.

If I have to believe in the Book AND in the Prophets then it means they are both to be obeyed as well.

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39 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

that is not what I asked brother. When the Prophet delivered his message, was he allowed to and supposed to teach and explain the message OR just deliver?

Delivered and that which was being delivered was the Quran. The word "message" is  actually an interpolation  its not  in 5:92 and 64:12.

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَاحْذَرُوا ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا الْبَلَاغُ الْمُبِينُ - 5:92

WaateeAAoo Allaha waateeAAooarrasoola wahtharoo fa-in tawallaytum faAAlamooannama AAala rasoolina albalaghualmubeen

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا الْبَلَاغُ الْمُبِينُ - 64:12

WaateeAAoo Allaha waateeAAooarrasoola fa-in tawallaytum fa-innama AAalarasoolina albalaghu almubeen

 
Edited by iavswn

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

If I have to believe in the Book AND in the Prophets then it means they are both to be obeyed as well.

 

1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

So your statement is really re-defined now. From "The Qur'an alone is sufficient" to "The Qur'an alone is sufficient to understand my religion".

For everything else, there are other books.

But now we have a problem in that everything is in the Quran so why the need for science books and law books. We will have to further update your statement to "The Qur'an alone is sufficient to understand my religion but it is not sufficient for anything else."

Is that what you are saying?

You are grasping at straws.

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13 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Why?

My original statement about the quran alone being sufficient pertains to religion and not science, law, etc.. so there is no contradiction. That was very clearly implied from the fact that the discussion was on religion. Besides, the Qur'an is a religious book, revelation from Allah, so when we are talking about the Qur'an we are talking about religion.

Edited by iavswn

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18 minutes ago, iavswn said:

Delivered and that which was being delivered was the Quran. The word "message" is  actually an interpolation  its not  in 5:92 and 64:12.

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَاحْذَرُوا ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا الْبَلَاغُ الْمُبِينُ - 5:92

WaateeAAoo Allaha waateeAAooarrasoola wahtharoo fa-in tawallaytum faAAlamooannama AAala rasoolina albalaghualmubeen

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا الْبَلَاغُ الْمُبِينُ - 64:12

WaateeAAoo Allaha waateeAAooarrasoola fa-in tawallaytum fa-innama AAalarasoolina albalaghu almubeen

 

still not answering my question brother which is quite simple. Not referring any ayah. Is the Prophet's role to deliver the message only or teach it as well?

3 minutes ago, iavswn said:

My original statement about the quran alone being sufficient pertains to religion and not science, literature, etc.. so there is no contradiction. That was very clearly implied from the fact that the discussion was on religion. Besides, tyler quern is a religious book, revelation from Allah, so when we are talking about the qur'an we are talking about religion.

but that is exactly what I said, "The Qur'an alone is sufficient to understand my religion but it is not sufficient for anything else.". However this disagrees with the Quran because the Quran has complete knowledge...or doesn't it?

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9 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

still not answering my question brother which is quite simple. Not referring any ayah. Is the Prophet's role to deliver the message only or teach it as well?

but that is exactly what I said, "The Qur'an alone is sufficient to understand my religion but it is not sufficient for anything else.". However this disagrees with the Quran because the Quran has complete knowledge...or doesn't it?

This is a straw man fallacy. I never said, "but it is not sufficient for anything else.". 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

 

Edited by iavswn

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31 minutes ago, iavswn said:

My original statement about the quran alone being sufficient pertains to religion and not science, law, etc.. so there is no contradiction. That was very clearly implied from the fact that the discussion was on religion. Besides, the Qur'an is a religious book, revelation from Allah, so when we are talking about the Qur'an we are talking about religion.

You quoted my sentence wherein I stated that 'to believe in the Book and the Prophets is equal to obey the Book and the Prophets.

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3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

still not answering my question brother which is quite simple. Not referring any ayah. Is the Prophet's role to deliver the message only or teach it as well?

but that is exactly what I said, "The Qur'an alone is sufficient to understand my religion but it is not sufficient for anything else.". However this disagrees with the Quran because the Quran has complete knowledge...or doesn't it?

NOT liking or agreeing with the answer given is NOT the same as having NOT received an answer. 

Edited by iavswn

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