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Paradox of Sunni ilm al-rijal

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Imagine there was a Muslim who lived in the early generations named Bob.

  • Bob prayed all his obligatory and voluntary prayers everyday in the mosque.
  • Bob fasted all the obligatory and voluntary fasts.
  • Bob regularly gave charity.
  • Bob memorized the Quran.
  • Bob never lied or committed any major sins.
  • Bob had a good memory and narrated thousands of hadiths from reputable teachers. 
  • Bob had a good reputation and everyone who was asked about him would praise him.

Naturally, Sunni hadith and rijal scholars would consider him a trustworthy narrator and would accept his narrations.

 

Now imagine if Bob learned of a sahih hadith explicitly declaring Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã to be the successor of the Prophet (s). Bob would probably become a Shii and narrate this hadith to others. However, because he is now a Shii, his narrations will no longer be accepted by Sunni scholars, even though he is still the same pious Muslim with good character and good memory. Therefore, this narration transmitted by Bob which proves Imam Ali's Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã khilafah would not be accepted. Do you see what I am saying?

 

Sunnis ask Shias to provide an authentic hadith from Sunni narrators that clearly and explicitly declare Imam Ali's khilafah. But this is impossible due to their flawed system of ilm al-rijal. Any authentic hadith proving Imam Ali's Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã khilafah would cause the hearer of the hadith to become a Shii. But when they narrate the hadith, it is no longer considered authentic because they are Shii.

Thus every hadith proving Imam Ali's Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã khilafah (or other aspects of Shiism) is considered weak because the narrators in the chains are Shii, even though these narrators are Shii because of these hadiths. This is the paradox of Sunni ilm al-rijal

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1 hour ago, zyzz said:

Imagine there was a Muslim who lived in the early generations named Bob.

  • Bob prayed all his obligatory and voluntary prayers everyday in the mosque.
  • Bob fasted all the obligatory and voluntary fasts.
  • Bob regularly gave charity.
  • Bob memorized the Quran.
  • Bob never lied or committed any major sins.
  • Bob had a good memory and narrated thousands of hadiths from reputable teachers. 
  • Bob had a good reputation and everyone who was asked about him would praise him.

Naturally, Sunni hadith and rijal scholars would consider him a trustworthy narrator and would accept his narrations.

 

Now imagine if Bob learned of a sahih hadith explicitly declaring Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã to be the successor of the Prophet (s). Bob would probably become a Shii and narrate this hadith to others. However, because he is now a Shii, his narrations will no longer be accepted by Sunni scholars, even though he is still the same pious Muslim with good character and good memory. Therefore, this narration transmitted by Bob which proves Imam Ali's Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã khilafah would not be accepted. Do you see what I am saying?

 

Sunnis ask Shias to provide an authentic hadith from Sunni narrators that clearly and explicitly declare Imam Ali's khilafah. But this is impossible due to their flawed system of ilm al-rijal. Any authentic hadith proving Imam Ali's Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã khilafah would cause the hearer of the hadith to become a Shii. But when they narrate the hadith, it is no longer considered authentic because they are Shii.

Thus every hadith proving Imam Ali's Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã khilafah (or other aspects of Shiism) is considered weak because the narrators in the chains are Shii, even though these narrators are Shii because of these hadiths. This is the paradox of Sunni ilm al-rijal

Wa aleykumsalaam,

[9.101] And from among those who are round about you of the dwellers of the desert there are hypocrites, and from among the people of Medina (also); they are stubborn in hypocrisy; you do not know them; We know them; We will chastise them twice then shall they be turned back to a grievous chastisement.

Allah says in Quran that no one is aware of hypocrite among the Sahaba, not even the Prophet (s). Allah testify in the Quran that the not all companion are trustworthy, yet they blindly consider all the companion just. What can be the biggest paradox than this!

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2 hours ago, zyzz said:

Now imagine if Bob learned of a sahih hadith explicitly declaring Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã to be the successor of the Prophet (s). Bob would probably become a Shii and narrate this hadith to others. However, because he is now a Shii, his narrations will no longer be accepted by Sunni scholars, even though he is still the same pious Muslim with good character and good memory. Therefore, this narration transmitted by Bob which proves Imam Ali's Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã khilafah would not be accepted. Do you see what I am saying?

Even then all the companions were Adil ie like infallible persons for sunnis. yet they themselves reject those companions narrations in the favor of Imam Ali AS khilafa..

yes it exists in sunnis rijal system

Edited by skyweb1987

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There were no ideological  "shia" companions of prophet  per sunni 

With possible exception of abu tufayl 

Then again he was not considered rafidhi i.e did not curse first 2 caliphs per Sunnis

 Please correct me if im wrong 

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1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

There were no ideological  "shia" companions of prophet  per sunni 

With possible exception of abu tufayl 

Then again he was not considered rafidhi i.e did not curse first 2 caliphs per Sunnis

 Please correct me if im wrong 

Are shii companions reliable narrators in sunnis rijal? 

 

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On 7/16/2017 at 8:56 AM, skyweb1987 said:

Are shii companions reliable narrators in sunnis rijal? 

 

Shia companions of prophet are automatically reliable just as nasibi companions of the prophet per Sunnis 

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32 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Shia companions of prophet are automatically reliable just as nasibi companions of the prophet per Sunnis 

For Sunnis:

Nasobis are Reliable narrators

Shii companions are reliable narrators. 

Though no evidence is mentioned.

then what else do you need  for this defective Nasibi ie enemy of Ahl albaayt based narrations system?

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47 minutes ago, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

Who is the Shia companion? If you mean Ammar or Abu Dhar etc then keep in mind that Sunnis have taken more knowledge and narrations from them than the Twelver Shias.

Thats a matter of perception really

I would argue no one in the sahaba generation had the same views as present day shias or sunnis 

But Sunnis in general have way more narrations from companions of Ali than shias do esp the Sahaba of prophet 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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31 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

For Sunnis:

Nasobis are Reliable narrators

Shii companions are reliable narrators. 

Though no evidence is mentioned.

then what else do you need  for this defective Nasibi ie enemy of Ahl albaayt based narrations system?

But sunnis are overall even handed in their approach towards all sahaba regardless of their poltical orientation

Their attitude towards tabaeen who are shia of Ali is more complicated  

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20 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Their attitude towards tabaeen who are shia of Ali is more complicated  

What do you intend to ,mention? 

Can you please clarify it further?

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E.g some tabi'i companions of Ali are highly regarded by Sunnis

But other tabi'i companions of Imam are considered unreliable narrators of hadith  usually cause given is that they exaggerated wrt imam Ali

Question is will they follow similar policy regards partisans of Uthman  who were tabi'i?

  

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On ‎7‎-‎8‎-‎2017 at 11:07 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

E.g some tabi'i companions of Ali are highly regarded by Sunnis

But other tabi'i companions of Imam are considered unreliable narrators of hadith  usually cause given is that they exaggerated wrt imam Ali

Question is will they follow similar policy regards partisans of Uthman  who were tabi'i?

  

As long they were in line with the original order of the Ahlussunnah caliphs which is Abu Bakr - Umar - Uthman and then Muawiya and Yazid.

As we can see clearly. ideologies originate from politics first and not the other way around.

So that's exactly the problem with so-called Ilm al-Rijal which is built on political favorism and not Quran and Reason.

Edited by Faruk

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