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SalamAlaykum Brothers and sister 

I'm currently creating a simplified Tafsir which is very easy to read and the format is not boring, but coming across this ayat it has put it to a pause lol

وَمَا جَعَلْنَا أَصْحَابَ النَّارِ إِلَّا مَلَائِكَةً ۙ وَمَا جَعَلْنَا عِدَّتَهُمْ إِلَّا فِتْنَةً لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لِيَسْتَيْقِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَيَزْدَادَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِيمَانًا ۙ وَلَا يَرْتَابَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۙ وَلِيَقُولَ الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ مَرَضٌ وَالْكَافِرُونَ مَاذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِهَٰذَا مَثَلًا ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ يُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ ۚ وَمَا هِيَ إِلَّا ذِكْرَىٰ لِلْبَشَرِ {31}

[Shakir 74:31] And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those who disbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say: What does Allah mean by this parable? Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals.

Let me put those parts I'm interested the most in bullet points 

  • ...and We have not made their number but as a trial for those who disbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt...

According to the Tafsir, the number 19 which in this Chapter is about the angels, is also mentioned in the TORAH 

Quote

...The people of the Book did not protest against the number which reflects that they had found the number in line with their Scriptures. Thus, they arrived at further certitude as to the Prophetic Call of Allah’s Messenger (S). Besides, the believers’ faith was further firmly established. 

https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-18/surah-al-mudaththir-chapter-74

Here is the Question

Can a knowledgeable brother or sister please tell me where in the TORAH and the Gospels it mentions anything to do with 19 Angels that Guard the Hell. 

Jazakallah Khairyan

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There is no "19" in the Old Testament except as for the number of Daoud's -a.s. servants.

As for Jehenna/Gehenna in the Old T. it is usually translated as "nether" "pit" or place. Use a concordance if you wish to search for more specificity.

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On 7/11/2017 at 7:19 PM, MohammadAli1993 said:

The people of the Book did not protest against the number which reflects that they had found the number in line with their Scriptures. Thus, they arrived at further certitude as to the Prophetic Call of Allah’s Messenger (S). Besides, the believers’ faith was further firmly established. 

وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ

(and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself)

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

All interpretations of number nineteen, based upon conjecture, should not be taken as true. The text of verse 31 itself gives the reason for the mention of this number. It is only a trial which creates aversion in the hearts of the disbelievers and the hypocrites and increases faith and conviction in the hearts of the believers. The verse further makes it known that Allah alone knows the (number of) forces at His command , and further explains it by stating that He leaves to stray whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases. The act or will of Allah creates different reactions in men according to the nature of their receptivity. See commentary of Fatihah: 5 for action and reaction.

Hiya (this) in the last sentence of verse 31 refers to the warning given above that by the act of Allah some receive guidance and some go astray.

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If you say 19 and I don't come up with a better number, does it mean I accept yours? Figuratively, the revelation to John mentions there are keys to hell, so one holding keys, the rest floating around...Maybe 18 angels brought a bunch of bad dead people, just happen to be there for the count. If it says no one knows but God Himself, it probably means we'll never know. It's probably for our own good.

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On 7/12/2017 at 2:03 AM, Salsabeel said:

وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ

(and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself)

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

All interpretations of number nineteen, based upon conjecture, should not be taken as true. The text of verse 31 itself gives the reason for the mention of this number. It is only a trial which creates aversion in the hearts of the disbelievers and the hypocrites and increases faith and conviction in the hearts of the believers. The verse further makes it known that Allah alone knows the (number of) forces at His command , and further explains it by stating that He leaves to stray whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases. The act or will of Allah creates different reactions in men according to the nature of their receptivity. See commentary of Fatihah: 5 for action and reaction.

Hiya (this) in the last sentence of verse 31 refers to the warning given above that by the act of Allah some receive guidance and some go astray.

Brother I don't understand why you copy and pasted this from the website even tho it doesn't address my point one bit. I'm talking specifically about the number (which the Tafsir mentions) 

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1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

If you say 19 and I don't come up with a better number, does it mean I accept yours? Figuratively, the revelation to John mentions there are keys to hell, so one holding keys, the rest floating around...Maybe 18 angels brought a bunch of bad dead people, just happen to be there for the count. If it says no one knows but God Himself, it probably means we'll never know. It's probably for our own good.

Are you a Muslim? Sorry just confused lol

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13 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Are you a Muslim? Sorry just confused lol

I am Christian but it depends who you ask. Sorry for the confusion.

I was just answering from a Christian standpoint. Christianity doesn't do 19, far as I know...If you say 19, I can't argue that the number is wrong because I don't have a number for comparison. For the same reason I can't confirm the number either. To take my silence as one way or the other would be pure conjecture.

Also...I used to work in close proximity with a Sunni. He was also into the Gossip of Barnabas and I found that arguing, or questioning him could get him rather upset, so we learn to smile and nod. Still can't take that as confirmation.

Sorry about your Tafsir, just sayin.

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22 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Can a knowledgeable brother or sister please tell me where in the TORAH and the Gospels it mentions anything to do with 19 Angels that Guard the Hell.

You mean in OT and NT. Those are definitely not Torah or Injeel.

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7 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

So at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) the OT and NT werent the same as we have today? 

Of course they were. OT and NT copies, written long before the birth of Muhammed still exist. 

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On 7/12/2017 at 1:19 AM, MohammadAli1993 said:

According to the Tafsir, the number 19 which in this Chapter is about the angels, is also mentioned in the TORAH 

Did you not consider the possibility that the Tafsir is incorrect?

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5 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Andres can you show me a manuscripts from the Time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh? 

The Bible as we know it was compiled around 325AD. 300 some religious scholars would never agree to changes. There is no actual Qur'anic evidence past scripture was physically corrupted. All Qur'anic criticisms are, reading one thing, teaching another, or corruption within the religion itself. Writing with one's hands and saying it's from God is in every concordance/tafsir since.

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On 7/12/2017 at 1:19 AM, MohammadAli1993 said:

SalamAlaykum Brothers and sister 

I'm currently creating a simplified Tafsir which is very easy to read and the format is not boring, but coming across this ayat it has put it to a pause lol

وَمَا جَعَلْنَا أَصْحَابَ النَّارِ إِلَّا مَلَائِكَةً ۙ وَمَا جَعَلْنَا عِدَّتَهُمْ إِلَّا فِتْنَةً لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لِيَسْتَيْقِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَيَزْدَادَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِيمَانًا ۙ وَلَا يَرْتَابَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۙ وَلِيَقُولَ الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ مَرَضٌ وَالْكَافِرُونَ مَاذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِهَٰذَا مَثَلًا ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ يُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ ۚ وَمَا هِيَ إِلَّا ذِكْرَىٰ لِلْبَشَرِ {31}

[Shakir 74:31] And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those who disbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say: What does Allah mean by this parable? Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals.

Let me put those parts I'm interested the most in bullet points 

  • ...and We have not made their number but as a trial for those who disbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt...

According to the Tafsir, the number 19 which in this Chapter is about the angels, is also mentioned in the TORAH 

Here is the Question

Can a knowledgeable brother or sister please tell me where in the TORAH and the Gospels it mentions anything to do with 19 Angels that Guard the Hell. 

Jazakallah Khairyan

Hello Jazakallah Khairyan.

Very nice to see you are trying to understand this most crucial verse inside Quran.  I have done quite some research on this verse and I will share my understanding with you.   

First, why is this verse so important?  Well, let me apply Qurans logic...  

If you are a believer this number should give you more certainty and remove doubt (give you proof of its divine origin).  Furthermore, if you don't understand this verse or are still in doubt about its meaning, then by Qurans logic you are not a believer.

I've been truly flabbergasted by the lack of understanding of this verse in traditional tafsir.  Muslim scholars don't understand the meaning of this verse and if you apply its logic you will find there are very few true believers around.

Now let's go to understanding the meaning of this verse.  

The expression "over it is 19" is highly uncommon in the Quran.  It expresses an amount, a number without specifying the subject.  The number 19 is used as a subject itself.  This is a first hint towards its meaning.

Let's look at context.

The preceding verses speak of hell.  We find a description of hell.   Quran describes hell as a place where people are continuously burned.  Black pillars of smoke escaping from it.  The malaika (I do not translate malaika as angels and will explain why later in this post) are the keepers of the fire.

We can compare this description of hell with the mundane example of a crematorium.  When a human corpse is burned inside a crematorium, the carbon leaves as black smoke (oxidization process).  Inside the human ashes the biggest remainder is potassium.  The atomic index number of potassium is 19 because of its 19 protons/electrons.

Now, if this is true why would Quran use the atomic index number instead of its known name al-qalyah?

There is a good reason for this.  Suppose the quran would say: "over it is kalium (al-qalyah)", would it still be a proof to believers and disturb the disbelievers?  No it would not.  In contrary it would be proof to the disbelievers and give doubt to the believers.  Why?  Because not until the 19th century was humankind able to distinct potassium from sodium.  If the quran would state "kalium" or "al-qalya", sceptics would be able to say the Quran is wrong.  Because "kalium" was until the 19th century used for both sodium and potassium.

Since there was no accurate word for potassium available at the time of writing, God used the atomic index number to describe the substance which is covering hell.

But wait a minute... Quran says this number is the number of Angels who are guarding hell.  

This is true.  But let's take a look at the translation of malaika to angels.  Is this correct?  The word angel literally means "messenger" from latin "angelus".  The classical arabic word malaika is often used in the quran.  Derivatives of its triliteral root "M-L-K" are also used to describe kings and rulers (those who control, are in a position of power).

I'm not here to give you a lesson in physics, but one has to be aware how this reality manifests itself.  Chemical elements are defined by the electron/proton count.  How matter reacts, what properties it has is defined by the amount of protons and electrons inside the atom.  If you remove one electron from an atom, or add one to an atom, the chemical element is no longer the same, it becomes another chemical element with different properties.  In short, electrons control and define material reality.

Taking you deeper down the rabbit hole...

Electrons when they were first described by Niels Bohr are very peculiar.  They can pop in and out of existence.  They can move faster than light.  They can even be at two places at once.  This is described in quantum mechanics.  Niels Bohr believed this was unique, unheared of before but it was not.  Some philosopher (Adler) talked about this with Niels Bohr and noticed these magical properties were described before: to be precise, by St. Thomas Aquinas, wrote about instantaneous movement of angels some 650 years before Bohr’s atomic theory.

I'll stop my theory about malaika here and bring it back to the topic of the verse you mentioned and test it's validity using the Quran itself.

Does this bring a trial for those who disbelieve?  Certainly, it's quite disturbing for a disbeliever to find a 1400 year old book is showing knowledge of the electron count of potassium.  No man, knew this proton/electron count until the 20th century.  Leaving only divine explanations available.

Does this bring certainty to those who disbelieve?  For the same argument as above, this confirms to the believer this can't possibly have been known by any man.  Therefor confirming the divine origin of the Quranic text.

Does this convince the people of the book? No it does not. The people of the book didn't know the electron count of potassium.  

Then how did it convince the people of the book?

Well, the answer is that the jews have 18 prayers (Shemoneh Esrei).  There is a 19th prayer however, used to curse the disbelievers.  As such, the people of the book would have recognized the 19 as confirmation this is coming from their God.  Especially since it is used in context of hell.

Still not convinced by the 19 meaning potassium?

Then look at the evidence inside Quran in the descriptions of Hell.  I'll give you a few, the rest of the homework is for you.

"And the companions of the left – what are the companions of the left?  (They will be) in scorching fire and scalding water and a shade of black smoke, neither cool nor beneficial." (Quran 56:41-44)"

This describes the carbon leaving in an oxidization process.

"No food will there be for them except from a bitter, thorny plant which neither nourishes nor avails against hunger." (Quran 88:6-7)

The taste of potassium is bitter.  It's a salt.  At the same time it's a fertilizer allowing things to grow on it.

"So no friend has he here this Day, nor has he any food except filth from the washing of wounds which none do eat but those in sin." (Quran 69:35-37)

Washing of wounds with potassium soap.  The oldest use of potash in history has been soap.

In some descriptions of hell, the destruction of sodom and gommorah is used as an example of hell.  Sodom and gomorrah were most likely situated near the dead sea.  Still to this day, there is a potassium plant there, extracting potassium from the dead sea.

Peace,

waraqa

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I also encourage the OP to look at how violent potassium reacts with water and find more evidence of how this fits the description of hell (burning, scolding etc).

Peace,

waraqa

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To backup what I'm saying I'm posting this table which shows the contents of chemical elements composing the human body:

 

hsW3cGf.png

Notice how potassium (atomic index number 19) is the biggest remainder by far.  The Oxygen and Carbon are not relevant because they leave in the form of carbon smoke.  There is 8 times more potassium in human ashes than sodium remainders.  Three times more potassium than the second most prevalent element calcium. 

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Cremated remains are mostly calcium phosphates. What the body is composed of previous to fire doesn't make much difference once the organics are baked into metal oxides and carbonates. This is why ashes don't burst into flames when wet, and there's actually nothing left that will burn. They work better in gardens.

Gayle E. O’Neill, PhD.
TEI Analytical, Inc. Niles, Illinois

The results were derived using ICP (Inductively Coupled Plasma Emission Spectroscopy).

  • Phosphate 47.5%
  • Calcium 25.3%
  • Sulfate (Sulphate) 11.00%
  • Potassium 3.69%
  • Sodium 1.12%
  • Chloride 1.00%
  • Silica 0.9%
  • Aluminum Oxide 0.72%
  • Magnesium 0.418%
  • Iron Oxide 0.118%
  • Zinc 0.0342%
  • Titanium Oxide 0.0260%
  • Barium 0.0066%
  • Antimony 0.0035%
  • Chromium 0.0018%
  • Copper 0.0017%
  • Manganese 0.0013%
  • Lead 0.0008%
  • Tin 0.0005%
  • Vanadium 0.0002%
  • Beryllium <0.0001%
  • Mercury <0.00001%

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Good point, Son of Placid.  Thanks for this contribution.

You are correct in what you posted.  But one needs to keep in mind the extremely long half life of potassium (this is the speed at which a chemical element decays).  Potassium is known for its extremely long half life. Putting this into the context of the Quranic description of hell, we know the stay in hell isn't just for a short while but for an eternity.

Within this context, hell will still be covered by potassium or potassium isotopes since all the other elements will have decayed.

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One also needs to be aware potassium isotopes are radio-active.  This means they will speed up the decay of other elements in their surrounding.

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It's annoying I can't edit my posts so my apologies for the many posts.  

One can deduce from all this the description of hell we find in Quran is an analogy for a radioactive environment, caused by the presence of large quantities of potassium isotopes.  

Indeed, such an environment will burn and scald the human skin.   The description of Saqar (hellfire) is a description of such a radio active environment.  It's not an ordinary fire.  But the analogy of fire is used to make this comprehensible for people who didn't have an understanding of radio activity centuries ago.  For us in modern times, we find the explicit reference to the atomic index number 19 making it clear what substance Hell is covered with.  An element known in modern physics for its radio activity and extremely long halflife of isotopes.  

ps: can a moderator delete the previous post?

Edited by Hameedeh
Edited. Member requested to change halftime to halflife.

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Relating back to the OP, you may have to reconsider who the people of the book are.  They are the Jews.  Not the christians.  I could elaborate why this is the case but it seems off-topic in this thread.

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On 7/30/2017 at 7:37 AM, waraqa said:

It's annoying I can't edit my posts so my apologies for the many posts.  

One can deduce from all this the description of hell we find in Quran is an analogy for a radioactive environment, caused by the presence of large quantities of potassium isotopes.  

Indeed, such an environment will burn and scald the human skin.   The description of Saqar (hellfire) is a description of such a radio active environment.  It's not an ordinary fire.  But the analogy of fire is used to make this comprehensible for people who didn't have an understanding of radio activity centuries ago.  For us in modern times, we find the explicit reference to the atomic index number 19 making it clear what substance Hell is covered with.  An element known in modern physics for its radio activity and extremely long halftime of isotopes.  

Can I ask you a question without you getting upset? This question isn't to provoke you or anything but are you a Quranist? 

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      [Pickthal 33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.
      [Yusufali 33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things. ***** Relevant part of the Verse: النَّبِيُّ أَوْلَىٰ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ مِنْ أَنْفُسِهِمْ ۖ وَأَزْوَاجُهُ أُمَّهَاتُهُمْ ۗ } [Shakir 33:6] The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves, .....
      [Yusufali 33:6] The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, ....... [Yusufali 33:6] The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves,  ***** At Ghadir Khumm,  "Then the Messenger of Allah continued:  "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?"   People cried and answered:  "Yes, O' Messenger of God." Then followed the key sentence denoting the clear designation of 'Ali as the leader of the Muslim ummah.  The Prophet held up the hand of 'Ali and said:  "For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)." https://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm At Ghadir Khum, Question was asked(33:6), Muslims Answered. Seal of the Prophets, and the Witness over ALL Prophets( 3:81). Mawla here means what?  Does this mean, Mawla only in delivering revelation? What does More right over the Believers( All Past Prophets and believers present at Ghadir Khumm). Now the question is: Lets see if the cal for Unity are real. Are the Muslims united or disunited. 1) Messenger, only in Delivering Revelation. Rest, only a human like us, others an have better judgement,  opinions in leadership,preserving Quran, etc.. 2) Messenger, but Book of Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is sufficient for us 3) Mawla in All comprehensive and Complete sense. (Prophet/Messenger/Imam-Khaliftullah Vicegerent of Allah(awj) without limitation of time and space - All my affairs- as Islam is the same as our Nature, as its a Way of life not only a personal relationship with  Allah(awj).  Let's see what this Unity, talk is all about.
    • http://en.wikishia.net/view/Wadi_l-Salam_Cemetery One of the reasons to the importance of this cemetery is its proximity to Imam 'Ali's (a) holy shrine. In addition, it has been indicated and admired frequently in Shi'areferences. It appears the earliest hadith about it is one narrated by al-Kulayni (255/869 - 329/940-1), said to be from Imam 'Ali (a). Subsequent references have narrated this hadith numerously. In this hadith, Imam 'Ali (a), accompanied with one of his companions, goes to Wadi l-Salam and uttered: "No pious man passes away on any part of the earth unless his spirit is ordered to come to Wadi l-Salam. Here, is a part of Heaven."[8]  Al-Kulayni, al-Kafi, Vol.3, P.243
    • I think she knows that if she reports her father he would be arrested and maybe go to prison. This would be catastrophic for her mother and family.
    • Concept of Unity is linked to Leadership. Cause of disunity. Ghadir Khum. What was missing at Saqifa, Fadak, Battle of Jamal, Battle of Siffin, and at Karbala? The other side apparently, believed in Tawheed, Prophethood, Prayers, Zakat, Fasting, Hajj, Recitation of Quran…… Except for Recognition of the Vicegerent/Representative of Allah(awj). "O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67) Our safety is of no concern to us. We will not stop unmasking the culprits, removing the veil of deceit from the faces of those whose teaching have and will undermine True Islam.  Or we have lost the Message of Karbala. Why would any human be offended if Evil is exposed? How is this undermining Unity? Have you ever heard of such talk, do not expose the Traitors, it's not good for the unity of the country. If someone is supporting the Oppressors, the Unjust , they should be asked, why in the world you would do that , your innate Nature does not even allows it. Have you ever seen or heard that the humans love the Murderer and the murdered, the Oppressor and the oppressed ? This is against Human Nature. Coexistence is not the same as Unity. We coexist with other Humans, business/life goes on. Under the Umbrella topic of Unity, lies the propagation of the Political Islam/islam of Shafiqa, Jamal, Siffin…Silence them( the Shia's) with unity talk, so we can continue playing with the religion
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