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Peace be upon you all

This past ramadan I've been having discussions back and forth with a number of people in regards to the soul, life, religion, and our end destination. 

Although some things were clarified, one of my questions kept going unanswered. In fact, people strayed away from it hitting me with a bunch of remedial evasions, which upset me. On top of this, my philosophy professor gave a lecture last week thats been driving me MAD. Ive been contemplating life and religion for the past week and I need some shiachat rectification!

So then, life's question:

1. Is our end destination, afterlife, Jannah, hellfire, whatever you'd like to call it, Physical or spiritual. Maybe the verses in holy books regarding an afterlife are meant to be interpreted in a symbolic way? Theres also the theory of a mix, that the hereafter is physical and spiritual, but that the body with which one is resurrected is not exactly the one that he has in this life, rather, it is like a shadow or an abstract of it. It will be perceived by any one as the same body, but it does not have the same physical and chemical mechanisms it had in this world.

The premise of my professors lecture was the process of teleportation, but I compared it to the process of resurrection and an afterlife, as for all these years I thought this is how it works. In basic terms, his theory was in regards to a teleportation machine. Something you could just walk into (death) and have it zap you someplace else (afterlife). Consider how this might work. You walk into the machine (you die), and it scans your body and records every last bit of detail, both physical and mental (angles). The machine then destroys your body and sends that information to the other machine (wherever you were wanting to travel to, in this case Heaven or hell). This other machine then creates, out of new matter, a body that is physically indistinguishable from your original body and places all the mental content of your mind into it. This is all done instantaneously. The person that walks out of the other end of that machine would think he/she is you. He/she would have a body that is physically indistinguishable from your body, he/she would have all your memories, thoughts, beliefs, opinions, desires, and all other mental content (after some spiritual cleansing of course). Is this not how life after death works?

2. The soul

Imagine we could do a brain transplant. Suppose you have cancer throughout your body but your brain is fine. What if we were able to remove your healthy brain from your cancer filled body and put it into a new healthy body? Supposing that all your mental content would remain intact, would the person who wakes up after the transplant be you--just in a new body? This poses the question of, what is the soul, its location, ext. If it can transfer worlds bodies, can the same be said for bodies in the after life?

I need some of the best shiachatters on this one

@hasanhh @Qa'im @notme @Hameedeh

Edited by Bazzi_

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I have written on a related topic here:

As for #1, most Muslim theologians believe in bodily resurrection, though Ibn Sina, Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa'i, and many Sufis argue for spiritual resurrection. Either way, all agree that the next realm is certainly more real than this molecular realm, while simultaneously being beyond our imagination. The pleasure and pain of the Hereafter are far more intense and meaningful to us than anything we experience in this world. Ibn `Abbas said, "The only thing that is shared between this world and the Hereafter are names" - meaning, there is water, wine, fruits, etc. but beyond their symbolic name, we know little about them. And so, I find the physical hereafter vs spiritual hereafter debate to be quite meaningless, because both are real and unimaginable.

As for #2, the soul is expressed through consciousness and being, and so if you are transferred to a new body, you would still be you. Our "body" in the Hereafter is not exactly like our body in dunya, but we will be the same person.

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4 hours ago, Bazzi_ said:

Is our end destination, afterlife, Jannah, hellfire, whatever you'd like to call it, Physical or spiritual. Maybe the verses in holy books regarding an afterlife are meant to be interpreted in a symbolic way? Theres also the theory of a mix, that the hereafter is physical and spiritual, but that the body with which one is resurrected is not exactly the one that he has in this life, rather, it is like a shadow or an abstract of it. It will be perceived by any one as the same body, but it does not have the same physical and chemical mechanisms it had in this world.

As a Christian I was taught that Heaven is a place where everything you want will be given to you immediately, and once you believe in the dogma of Christianity you are guaranteed to go to Heaven.

After I became a Muslim, I was taught that Heaven is not guaranteed except for the Martyrs and those who excel in their taqwa. We can only hope and pray that we go there.

Those who are cast down into Hell will have physical bodies that will be tortured according to their sins, then their bodies will be restored and put through tortures over and over again.

Likewise, those in Heaven will have some type of body but it could be spiritual and light, able to travel without any conveyance, able to see whatever is beautiful and pleasing. The happiness of Heaven for the momineen will be how near they are to the proximity of the Prophets, Ahlul Bayt, Martyrs and Ulema, may Allah bless them and elevate their status according to His Will. 

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36 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

After I became a Muslim, I was taught that Heaven is not guaranteed except for the Martyrs and those who excel in their taqwa. We can only hope and pray that we go there.

Really? I don't know, I try to hold the belief that we will all go to heaven, eventually, even if casted to hell. One should always remember that god chose to call himself the most merciful and the most forgiving before anything else. Hell is an awful place made for awful people. Sure we can hope, as we should, but the belief that only a select few will make it in the end just seems like it doesn't fall in line with the love and merciful view embodied in islam. 

2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

I had no idea, but thanks for doing so! The more opinions the better!

 

3 hours ago, Qa'im said:

I have written on a related topic here:

As for #1, most Muslim theologians believe in bodily resurrection, though Ibn Sina, Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa'i, and many Sufis argue for spiritual resurrection. Either way, all agree that the next realm is certainly more real than this molecular realm, while simultaneously being beyond our imagination. The pleasure and pain of the Hereafter are far more intense and meaningful to us than anything we experience in this world. Ibn `Abbas said, "The only thing that is shared between this world and the Hereafter are names" - meaning, there is water, wine, fruits, etc. but beyond their symbolic name, we know little about them. And so, I find the physical hereafter vs spiritual hereafter debate to be quite meaningless, because both are real and unimaginable.

As for #2, the soul is expressed through consciousness and being, and so if you are transferred to a new body, you would still be you. Our "body" in the Hereafter is not exactly like our body in dunya, but we will be the same person.

The question is, will we know? For instance, I've heard the theory that at one point, we were all just a bunch of souls gathered together before god. Before this life and our creation, the only thing we knew was god, thats it, and when finding out about our creation, we were freaking out (lots of error in that theory, take it with a grain of salt). But do we remember it? I sure don't, so will the same go for the after life? Apparently, very select few may have some remeberence of this, and although highly unlikely, I've also heard the opinion that some may encounter another human and may feel like they've known or seen them, when in actuality, they knew them in our Past life (when we were just souls). 

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27 minutes ago, Bazzi_ said:

Really? I don't know, I try to hold the belief that we will all go to heaven, eventually, even if casted to hell. One should always remember that god chose to call himself the most merciful and the most forgiving before anything else. 

There are different ranks in Jannah. If a believer doesn't have that quality of taqwa then maybe he will not be in "Al Firdous".

However even the torture in hell would be more than hundred thousand years, given that a believer is sent to it.

I hope we all are saved from being cast into hell to start with. There is a lot of hope in Allah's mercy and the intercession of our Imams(as)

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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3 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

There are different ranks in Jannah. If a believer doesn't have that quality of taqwa then maybe he will not be in "Al Firdous".

However even the torture in hell would be more than hundred thousand years, given that a believer is sent to it.

I hope we all are saved from being cast into hell to start with. There is a lot of hope in Allah's mercy and the intercession of our Imams(as)

Again, even that sounds horrific. A hundred thousand years man? I haven't verified it, but ive heard the Hadith in which our prophet reportedly said those who say the testimony of faith are forgiven. In this life alone, we are constantly being forgiven, are we not? When someone goes through sickness, depression, trials, sins are being stripped. 

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2 hours ago, Bazzi_ said:

Really? I don't know, I try to hold the belief that we will all go to heaven, eventually, even if casted to hell. One should always remember that god chose to call himself the most merciful and the most forgiving before anything else. Hell is an awful place made for awful people. Sure we can hope, as we should, but the belief that only a select few will make it in the end just seems like it doesn't fall in line with the love and merciful view embodied in islam. 

We always think that Allah is Merciful, but we can't think that all people will go to Heaven. Some will be in Hell for a short time, because they know Allah and know what is right and wrong, but they will be punished for their disobedience to Allah SWT and after some time they eventually will leave and enter Paradise.  

The polytheists are the ones who will be tortured forever:

"(As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise." [Holy Qur'an 4:56]

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1 hour ago, Hameedeh said:

We always think that Allah is Merciful, but we can't think that all people will go to Heaven. Some will be in Hell for a short time, because they know Allah and know what is right and wrong, but they will be punished for their disobedience to Allah SWT and after some time they eventually will leave and enter Paradise.  

The polytheists are the ones who will be tortured forever:

'(As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.' [Holy Qur'an 4:56]

And the convo goes

Quote;

“Is God merciful, compassionate, and just?”

“Yes, absolutely,” he replied.

“Is hell eternal?”

“Yes, absolutely,” he replied again.

“So, a merciful, compassionate, and just God would send a finite creature with finite knowledge of sins to infinite damnation and hellfire? Does that make sense to you?”

Qur’an 7:156: “‘I will inflict My punishment on whom I will; but My mercy encompasses all things.” How can hell last eternally or a believer be sent to hell even for a short time if God’s mercy encompasses “all things?”

I hope we all make it.  <3

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3 minutes ago, Bazzi_ said:

“So, a merciful, compassionate, and just God would send a finite creature with finite knowledge of sins to infinite damnation and hellfire? Does that make sense to you?”

“Do they not know that the punishment of whomsoever opposes God and His Messenger is the fire of hell, to reside therein eternally?” [Holy Qur'an 9:63]

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2 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

“Do they not know that the punishment of whomsoever opposes God and His Messenger is the fire of hell, to reside therein eternally?” [Holy Qur'an 9:63]

“those who associate partners with God . . . Fire will be their resort” to mean eternal hell misses the common-sense approach. This phrase is no different than “those who are patients . . . the hospital will be their resort.” A patient remains in the hospital until he is healed, and then leaves. Hell will serve as a reformatory stage from which they will eventually exit with God’s mercy and grace. But a solid believer is a whole different story.

I could be totally wrong, but we should question everything in order to understand correctly, right?

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3 minutes ago, Bazzi_ said:

Again, even that sounds horrific. A hundred thousand years man? I haven't verified it, but ive heard the Hadith in which our prophet reportedly said those who say the testimony of faith are forgiven. In this life alone, we are constantly being forgiven, are we not? When someone goes through sickness, depression, trials, sins are being stripped. 

Yes you are right about some illnesses wiping away our sins. However, barzakh is where majority of our sins will be wiped away. Barzakh will not be easy for lot of people including us Muslims. There is a hadith where our Imam (as) has confirmed this.

However we will be rewarded for our efforts to attain piety. Life is a struggle and we should try our best to be perfect.

This books gives me a lot of inspiration.

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-15-no-1-spring-2014/indicators-piety-part-1-mohammad-ali-shomali

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1 minute ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Yes you are right about some illnesses wiping away our sins. However, barzakh is where majority of our sins will be wiped away. Barzakh will not be easy for lot of people including us Muslims. There is a hadith where our Imam (as) has confirmed this.

However we will be rewarded for our efforts to attain piety. Life is a struggle and we should try our best to be perfect.

This books gives me a lot of inspiration.

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-15-no-1-spring-2014/indicators-piety-part-1-mohammad-ali-shomali

I have also heard of the concept, thanks for the link bro, ill hit you right back with one.

This is a great book that really knocked down the concept for me, its in PDF to, so you can just click and read.

http://islamicmobility.com/pdf/JOURNEY OF THE UNSEEN WORLD Rooh Ka Safar.pdf

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6 minutes ago, Bazzi_ said:

Hell will serve as a reformatory stage from which they will eventually exit with God’s mercy and grace. But a solid believer is a whole different story.

I could be totally wrong, but we should question everything in order to understand correctly, right?

Believers will experience Heaven, but those who are evil will be in Hell forever, because Allah is Just. Allah promised justice.

“Those who engaged in disbelief and called Our signs lies are the people of hellfire; they shall dwell in it eternally” [Holy Qur'an 2:39]

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1 hour ago, Hameedeh said:

Believers will experience Heaven, but those who are evil will be in Hell forever, because Allah is Just. Allah promised justice.

“Those who engaged in disbelief and called Our signs lies are the people of hellfire; they shall dwell in it eternally” [Holy Qur'an 2:39]

He promised divine justice, you are correct, but in what form? We are all sentient creatures, so define an evil one. 

Qasim Rashid puts it well. The Qur’an specifically compares and gives context to what God means by “forever” in the context of heaven and hell with side-by-side verses. Regarding hell in Qur’an 11:107-108, God says, “As for those who will prove unfortunate, they shall be in the Fire . . . . abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will.”

The following verse about heaven uses the same language, with one distinction: “But as for those who will prove fortunate, they shall be in Heaven; abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will — a gift that shall not be cut off.”

In a direct comparison, the Qur’an clarifies that heaven is “a gift which shall never be cut off,” while eternity is not at all mentioned regarding hell. Qur’an 11:108 says hell’s inmates will come out when God pleases — God’s mercy descends and encompasses his punishment.

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31 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

Believers will experience Heaven, but those who are evil will be in Hell forever, because Allah is Just. Allah promised justice.

“Those who engaged in disbelief and called Our signs lies are the people of hellfire; they shall dwell in it eternally” [Holy Qur'an 2:39]

Ultimately, me and you can come to an agreement. There is Indeed, no guarantee or promise that exists in which every Muslim will go directly to paradise after death or that every non-Muslim is automatically hell-bound. BUT, Islam is the only ancient religion that does not monopolize salvation exclusively to its adherents. Instead, Islam teaches that non-Muslims can and shall attain paradise.

The Qur’an declares in 2:62, “Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.”

lastly, although I don't fully understand it, I've heard the opinion that even some atheists would be forgiven, assuming that they were indeed looking for the truth, but never came across it. 

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1 hour ago, Bazzi_ said:

This is a great book that really knocked down the concept for me, its in PDF to, so you can just click and read.

http://islamicmobility.com/pdf/JOURNEY OF THE UNSEEN WORLD Rooh Ka Safar.pdf

From page 3: "And the one who leads a life of neglectfulness, waywardness and evil doings, for him there will be eternal punishment and chastisement." 

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39 minutes ago, Bazzi_ said:

The Qur’an declares in 2:62, “Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.”

We can all agree on this. 

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7 hours ago, Bazzi_ said:

Peace be upon you all

This past ramadan I've been having discussions back and forth with a number of people in regards to the soul, life, religion, and our end destination. 

Although some things were clarified, one of my questions kept going unanswered. In fact, people strayed away from it hitting me with a bunch of remedial evasions, which upset me. On top of this, my philosophy professor gave a lecture last week thats been driving me MAD. Ive been contemplating life and religion for the past week and I need some shiachat rectification!

So then, life's question:

1. Is our end destination, afterlife, Jannah, hellfire, whatever you'd like to call it, Physical or spiritual. Maybe the verses in holy books regarding an afterlife are meant to be interpreted in a symbolic way? Theres also the theory of a mix, that the hereafter is physical and spiritual, but that the body with which one is resurrected is not exactly the one that he has in this life, rather, it is like a shadow or an abstract of it. It will be perceived by any one as the same body, but it does not have the same physical and chemical mechanisms it had in this world.

The premise of my professors lecture was the process of teleportation, but I compared it to the process of resurrection and an afterlife, as for all these years I thought this is how it works. In basic terms, his theory was in regards to a teleportation machine. Something you could just walk into (death) and have it zap you someplace else (afterlife). Consider how this might work. You walk into the machine (you die), and it scans your body and records every last bit of detail, both physical and mental (angles). The machine then destroys your body and sends that information to the other machine (wherever you were wanting to travel to, in this case Heaven or hell). This other machine then creates, out of new matter, a body that is physically indistinguishable from your original body and places all the mental content of your mind into it. This is all done instantaneously. The person that walks out of the other end of that machine would think he/she is you. He/she would have a body that is physically indistinguishable from your body, he/she would have all your memories, thoughts, beliefs, opinions, desires, and all other mental content (after some spiritual cleansing of course). Is this not how life after death works?

2. The soul

Imagine we could do a brain transplant. Suppose you have cancer throughout your body but your brain is fine. What if we were able to remove your healthy brain from your cancer filled body and put it into a new healthy body? Supposing that all your mental content would remain intact, would the person who wakes up after the transplant be you--just in a new body? This poses the question of, what is the soul, its location, ext. If it can transfer worlds bodies, can the same be said for bodies in the after life?

I need some of the best shiachatters on this one

@hasanhh @Qa'im @notme @Hameedeh

That is nice question. How does it is important to diffrrtiate that weather afterlife is physical or spiritual. 

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3 hours ago, Bazzi_ said:

“Is God merciful, compassionate, and just?”

“Yes, absolutely,” he replied.

How is it possible to be both Just and Merciful?

Being just means enacting punishment appropriate to the crime and being merciful means forgiving or enacting lesser punishment than that fits the crime.  

Any time God forgives a sin, he could have been more just, any time he punishes, he could have been merciful. 

*

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@Bazzi_

According to shia gnostic a person will burn in he'll as long as his sins will burn and he will become purify. 

So ones duration of being in he'll depends upon the amount of his sins. 

And the burning of sinner in he'lIs Is actually mercy of Allah. 

Because it's this mercy that Allah purifies sinner  in he'll and then sends him to heaven .

Edited by islam25

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Salam

It's the question about identity, what constitutes one's identity? And how it is preserved through death and decay.

Identity doesn't have anything to do with the body, because even in this life all of your body cells are constantly replacing, dead ones with new ones, and in every ten years, you have a new body, completely different than the pervious. Your body now is not the body you had ten years ago, still your identity has been persevered.

The same can be said about afterlife.

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On 7/1/2017 at 10:33 PM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

This is one of my favourite books, brother! I'm glad that there is another Sheikh Shomali fan here =']

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