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DigitalUmmah

DMT/ LSD/ Hallucinogens in Islam

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Salam, Ya Ali (as) Madad, Lanat upon the enemies of the Ahlulbayt (as)

Aliun Wali Allah Wajib

BAR MUQASSIRREEN LANAT

I have been meaning to make this thread for a while. 

since the 1960s, hallucinogenic drugs have been fashionable. they are often used to "negate" religious belief because they give "visions" which the person taking the drugs interprets as signs from "the universe" that all established religious institutions and priesthoods are false, and the ultimate secret of life is that each of us is Allah of our own universe. 

theres plenty of youtube videos about this, for example:

as well as lots of accounts of people actually experiencing a DMT (the bit that gives you hallucinations) such as

 

The "alternate" communities push DMT as part of a larger plan to get people to leave religion. 

no doubt that there are many, many reasons to leave "western" religious institutions, and we should be honest, anyone exposed to religion through a corrupt church who does not adequately explain the concept of god or mans place in the universe will probably lead to most people becoming disbelievers. 

however, I have noticed a lot of muslims are experimenting with hallucinogens etc as part of their journey into understanding the universe. 

the problem is that there is absolute rubbish sufi heresy mixed in with islamic beliefs - such as wahdatul wujud - which unfortunately the lesser knowledgeable would probably fall for. 

wahdatul wujud boiled down is that everything in the universe = Allah. so technically since we are part of the universe, we are part of Allah. 

the imami belief is that Allah is not his creation. we believe saying anything is "part" of Allah is shirk. 

see, the thing with DMT is that it does not give anyone knowledge of anything "outside" their minds. for example there is not one account of anyone gaining any ilm ghayb from taking a hallucinogen. if i am wrong, then please by all means correct me. 

instead, the effects of DMT seem to be some sort of hormone or other chemical to be increased in the blood, which puts someone into a dreaming-like state, so their "visions" are little more than dreams. also, a common experience seems to be "i discovered i was god". to our own senses, our body probably is our god. that doesn't make it true then since i don't remember creating anything. not much of a god if I cant even remember stuff I created. makes no sense. if I was god, why don't i have a body like Arnold Schwarzenegger and long beard & hair like a viking? 

finally, lets look at the Imams (as). there is not a single case of where they encouraged something which would harm us, nor forbid something which would benefit us. if taking hallucinogens was a good way for us to learn about our universe, then they definitely would have encouraged us to do so. 

if you have any questions/ concerns or are having thoughts about trying hallucinogens then please let me know and we can discuss it. I am probably the most qualified by experience to discuss these things

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3 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

if you have any questions/ concerns or are having thoughts about trying hallucinogens then please let me know and we can discuss it. I am probably the most qualified by experience to discuss these things

nah...

to be the most qualified you would at least have experienced them yourself and not just read or watched documentaries about them. 

You are missing mushrooms and peyote too..  

sorry to say unless you have had them there is no way you will know what the experience is like. you cannot even imagine because the feeling is something you have never experienced.

Edited by kirtc

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16 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

thank you, captain obvious. 

I say it cuz, what you described isnt universal. I know a few shias and myself who have had different experiences. 

I had a profound experience of understanding what it means to be a creature along with nature. I could not stop thinking about God and his creations. So what you are saying is only one angle.. I cannot say it is halal or haram, I dont know.. but it is an eye opening experience

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I find it funny how people who haven't spent a day in hawzah, or any form of proper research feel the need to comment on wahdat al wujood. In that case.... quantum physics is rubbish too. 

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On 6/27/2017 at 10:03 AM, repenter said:

I find it funny how people who haven't spent a day in hawzah, or any form of proper research feel the need to comment on wahdat al wujood. In that case.... quantum physics is rubbish too. 

def that everything is God and that I am God is almost satanic.. and alot of people come to this conclusion... but its not the substance its the mind.. like I said me and another howza studied shia have had different experiences.. and so did a few others from a howza.

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On 6/27/2017 at 10:03 AM, repenter said:

I find it funny how people who haven't spent a day in hawzah, or any form of proper research feel the need to comment on wahdat al wujood. In that case.... quantum physics is rubbish too. 

Wahdatul wujud is a sufi belief, not a shia one.

why should we take parts of our aqeeda from the sufi and not the imams (as)? did the imams forget something that we had to learn from sufism instead? 

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15 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

Wahdatul wujud is a sufi belief, not a shia one.

why should we take parts of our aqeeda from the sufi and not the imams (as)? did the imams forget something that we had to learn from sufism instead? 

I guess all those scholars studying its concepts missed that point.....

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5 hours ago, repenter said:

I guess all those scholars studying its concepts missed that point.....

I follow the views of sheikh fayyadh on this matter

again.... there is no mention of wahdatul wujud in our aqeeda. it comes from sufism.

i'm not sure how anyone is going to deny it. we cant even take fiqh from non masum (as) sources, but apparently its ok to learn such strange things and incorporate them into our aqeeda, because reasons. 

maybe someone can translate the content posted by brother king in this post so we can better understand sayed sistanis position

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54 minutes ago, kirtc said:

def that everything is God and that I am God is almost satanic.. and alot of people come to this conclusion... but its not the substance its the mind.. like I said me and another howza studied shia have had different experiences.. and so did a few others from a howza.

wahdatul wujud is from sufis ripping off some Greek philosophy concept called pantheism. if you look at both pantheism and wahdatul wujud, you can see they're identical. among ibn arabis many other failings, he was clearly a plagiarist. 

but discussion regarding pantheism aside, can you imagine the effects that one would experience, who didnt really know much about their religion, then had a DMT experience where "the universe" tells them that they are (or are part of) Allah, that all religions are false etc, and then stumble across wahdatul wujud? its clearly shirk. 

in terms of mental unity with Allah, even that is absurd. how can one be mentally unified with Allah? 

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1 hour ago, DigitalUmmah said:

Wahdatul wujud is a sufi belief, not a shia one.

 هُوَ الْأَوَّلُ وَ الْآخِرُ وَ الظَّاهِرُ وَ الْباطِنُ وَ هُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْ‌ءٍ عَليمٌ

 هُوَ مَعَكُمْ أَيْنَ ما كُنْتُمْ

 فَأَيْنَما تُوَلُّوا فَثَمَّ وَجْهُ اللَّهِ ‌

 كانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْ‌ءٍ مُحيطا

 عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ علیهالسلام قَالَ: قَالَ لِي أَيُّ شَيْ‌ءٍ اللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ فَقُلْتُ لَا وَ اللَّهِ مَا أَدْرِي إِلَّا أَنِّي أَرَاهُ أَكْبَرُ مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْ‌ءٍ فَقَالَ وَ كَانَ ثَمَ‌ شَيْ‌ءٌ سِوَاهُ فَيَكُونَ أَكْبَرَ مِنْهُ فَقُلْتُ وَ أَيُّ شَيْ‌ءٍ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ قَالَ أَكْبَرُ مِنْ أَنْ يُوصَفَ].

 

 و عنه علیه السلام فی یوم بدر: يَا هُوَ يَا مَنْ لَا هُوَ إِلَّا هُوَ اغْفِرْ لِي وَ انْصُرْنِي عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَافِرِينَ۴]

۵ - و فی دعائه علیه السلام: يَا هُوَ يَا مَنْ هُوَ هُوَ يَا مَنْ لَيْسَ هُوَ إِلَّا هُوَ يَا هُوَ يَا مَنْ لَا هُوَ إِلَّا هُو []

۷ - و عن مولانا الرضا علیه السلام: َ فَافْهَمْ أَمَّا الْوَاحِدُ فَلَمْ يَزَلْ وَاحِداً كَائِناً لَا شَيْ‌ءَ مَعَهُ بِلَا حُدُودٍ وَ لَا أَعْرَاضٍ وَ لَا يَزَالُ كَذَلِك‌ [۷]

۸ - و عن أمیر المؤمنین علیه السلام: َ تَوْحِيدُهُ تَمْيِيزُهُ مِنْ خَلْقِهِ وَ حُكْمُ التَّمْيِيزِ بَيْنُونَةُ صِفَةٍ لَا بَيْنُونَةُ عُزْلَة[۸]

۹ - و عنه علیه السلام: فَسُبْحَانَكَ مَلَأْتَ كُلَّ شَيْ‌ءٍ وَ بَايَنْتَ كُلَّ شَيْ‌ءٍ فَأَنْتَ الَّذِي لَا يَفْقِدُكَ شَيْ‌ء [۹]

۱۰ - دَاخِلٌ فِي الْأَشْيَاءِ لَا كَشَيْ‌ءٍ فِي شَيْ‌ءٍ دَاخِلٍ وَ خَارِجٌ مِنَ الْأَشْيَاءِ لَا كَشَيْ‌ءٍ مِنْ شَيْ‌ءٍ خَارِج‌[۱۰]

Apparently, these are sufi teachings that made their way to Quran and Shia Hadith.

[Sarcastic; because if any onyone believes anything 'made its way' to present Quran, it means present Quran contains non-original verses, ie, Tahrif by addition, and such a person is non-muslim according to Sunni-Shia consensus. Those who believe in Tahrif and are yet Muslim, believe in tahrif of omission]

Edited by mesbah
explain the sarcasm

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16 minutes ago, mesbah said:

[Sarcastic; because if any onyone believes anything 'made its way' to present Quran, it means present Quran contains non-original verses, ie, Tahrif by addition, and such a person is non-muslim according to Sunni-Shia consensus. Those who believe in Tahrif and are yet Muslim, believe in tahrif of omission]

actually, this is a false argument. no one here believes that the quran has been distorted, but that there are incorrect tafsirs of verses. 

*edit* also, I would be interested to learn of any hadith from Imams (as) regarding wahdatul wujud. can you provide them?

Edited by DigitalUmmah

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2 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

thank you, captain obvious. 

you say that you are the most experienced yet when I pointed out that you weren't you say "thank you captain obvious" .... lol.. you dont make sense

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4 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

actually, this is a false argument. no one here believes that the quran has been distorted, but that there are incorrect tafsirs of verses. 

*edit* also, I would be interested to learn of any hadith from Imams (as) regarding wahdatul wujud. can you provide them?

Well, I don't know how correct tafsir of the following verses is according to anti wahdat alwujud people

'He is the first and the last, the apparent and the hidden'

'Wherever you turn, there's the face of God'

In the pervious post, there are plenty Hadith (to the level of Istifada, or altawarur al madmuni) indicating nothing exists except Allah swt.

A person says God is greater than everything, Imam al-Sadiq a says: does there exist anything rather than Allah, so that Allah be greater than it? No, Allah is greater than description.

In a sermon Imam Ali a says He is withing things without being mixed, He is out of things without distinction.

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@mesbah those Verses can be explained by the hadith of Ahlulbayt (AS) - they have told you what is meant by the "Face of Allah". 

Also can you bring forth that hadith of Al-Sadiq (AS)? Because I know of that hadith, and it doesn't say what you have stated it says.

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3 hours ago, kirtc said:

def that everything is God and that I am God is almost satanic.. and alot of people come to this conclusion... but its not the substance its the mind.. like I said me and another howza studied shia have had different experiences.. and so did a few others from a howza.

Are you saying that students in Hawza use drugs to experience Irfan and it's allowed/ part of the academic process? 

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Equally funny and silly everytime this subject comes up. One of the most sensetive and complex subjects that is discussed in Irfan/philosophy after many years of hawzah is being deducted by Shiachatters. 

Go watch Allahyari grt schooled on the subject by a scholar in qum...and tell me how much of what he says you actually understand. You guys are biting a lot more than you can swallow.

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

what is meant by the "Face of Allah". 

The point of this particular discussion is not the allegory of face. Anthropomorphism or divine corporeality (tajsim) is another issue, we are talking about some form of pantheism. 

 

1 hour ago, E.L King said:

Also can you bring forth that hadith of Al-Sadiq (AS)?

It's strange, you haven't noticed my first post.

 

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45 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

Are you saying that students in Hawza use drugs to experience Irfan and it's allowed/ part of the academic process? 

no, im saying that I have met students that went to howzah that have tried "drugs" and they said their experience was described as constant zikr and tasbee7.

my point being not all experiences lead to kufr. My experiences myself before I became religious was mostly showing me that their is a God and we are his creation.
 

Edited by kirtc

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At the same time I know that there are organized rituals with "shamans"  in places in south america where hippies from all over the world pay a couple of thousand to go take similar hallucinogens in organized groups . These people are definitely lost and come to the conclusion of this http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html

basically " i am God" estaghfurallah.. @rkazmi33
But this is actually indoctrinated in these rituals by the organizers and is not something the free mind arrives at.

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And something about the main topic of the thread

This seems to be part of a more general question about [what it has to be termed as] 'religious experience'

And the old question of mind-body relations

Now, neuroscience says it's all about hormones, people in the past would say it's the temperament, specifically melancholy, so it's nothing new, just a new form of old stuff.

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32 minutes ago, kirtc said:

im saying that I have met students that went to howzah that have tried "drugs" and they said their experience was described as constant zikr and tasbee7.

AlhamduliAllah, These kinds of people can't survive in hawza, their coming to hawza is just a misunderstanding from their part.

To use drugs for zikr and tasbih is crazier than traditional sufi meaningless playacts; to me it seems a sickness, May Allah save us.

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21 minutes ago, mesbah said:

AlhamduliAllah, These kinds of people can't survive in hawza, their coming to hawza is just a misunderstanding from their part.

To use drugs for zikr and tasbih is crazier than traditional sufi meaningless playacts; to me it seems a sickness, May Allah save us.

you are quick to point the finger and accuse...  where did I say they use drugs to do that? I said their experience with "drugs" was that... 

Drugs are bad and haram.

In this case I  am calling the hallucinogens that op is talking about "drugs" yet you nor I can prove that they are actually drugs. If you ate a mushroom by mistake and went on a outer body trip. Did you sin? To be honest, I cannot answer that because the argument for a drug is something that alters your mind. hashish and alcohol are surely drugs. But some will argue this mushroom does not fog your mind, instead clears it of all distractions. It opens your mind. So tell me, can you prove to me scientifically that this mushroom is a drug. 

To be honest I am not defending nor attacking the subsance.. it is a very gray area and Allah knows. 

http://ibogainefoundation.org/grand-ayatollah/

and let me tell you something bro... I myself have stopped any form of substances, I dont smoke and dont even drink coffee.. If I go to a howzah now, would you call it a misunderstanding from my part?

Edited by kirtc

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The name is not important, call it mushroom or onion, the fake spirituality that is gained primarily by some pills or liquid, is not what Quran and Hadith recommend.

Taqwa and knowledge are the keys to real objective spirituality, everything else is either a personal delusion or social misunderstanding. 

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