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AkhiraisReal

Female circumcision in Shia islam

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i have never ever heard about this before, but there was a old thread in shiachat talking about female circumcision in shia islam, and how marjas allowed it.

is this some kind of joke or what?

please note that i am no scholar or anything, but i thought this thing only existed in  the more extreme sunni islam.

Have i mistaken something?

 

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2 hours ago, E.L King said:

Yes, these hadiths exist and these scholarly rulings exist.

so could you please tell me what these female circumcision really is, because i have like i said before never heard of it before

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26 minutes ago, AkhiraisReal said:

so could you please tell me what these female circumcision really is, because i have like i said before never heard of it before

I don't know how it works. I haven't studied the female system and don't intend to.

Edited by E.L King

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1 hour ago, AkhiraisReal said:

so could you please tell me what these female circumcision really is, because i have like i said before never heard of it before

They remove part or all of a females sexual organ which is the one which, by far, is the most influential at allowing a women to experience sexual pleasure.

People who argue for doing it claim it enables a woman to control her urges better.

People who argue against is point to evidence, studies, and case after case of women not being able to feel pleasure during marital relations, and it truly affecting marriages this way. 

In the west, it is deemed child abuse, or general abuse if done to women who are no longer considered children. FGM - female genital mutilation, is what it is commonly known by in western circles.  Some consider it absolute cruelty. 

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Things are mixed here.

There have been different forms of that practice, but generally the most extreme form -removal of the whole organ- is given and shown as its sole example, while according to Shia scholars consensus, removal of female organ is punishable by either removal of the sexual organ of the aggressor, or chrging him/her with one complete Diya (bloodmoney of one person), and if only one side of it is removed, the half of a complete Diya should be given to the victim. 

Jawahir alKalam, (classic text of Shia jurisprudence):

]ﺍﻟﺴﺎﺩﺱ ﻋﺸﺮ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮﺍﻥ[ ﺍﻟﺴﺎﺩﺱ ﻋﺸﺮ: ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮﺍﻥ ﻭ ﻫﻤﺎ ﻋﺮﻓﺎ ﺍﻟﻠﺤﻢ ﺍﻟﻤﺤﻴﻂ ﺑﺎﻟﻔﺮﺝ ﺇﺣﺎﻃﺔ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺘﻴﻦ ﺑﺎﻟﻔﻢ ﻛﻤﺎ ﺻﺮﺡ ﺑﻪ ﻏﻴﺮ ﻭﺍﺣﺪ ﻣﻦ ﺍﻟﺄﺻﺤﺎﺏ، ﺑﻞ ﻫﻮ ﻛﺬﻟﻚ ﺃﻳﻀﺎ ﻋﻦ ﻣﺠﻤﻊ ﺍﻟﺒﺤﺮﻳﻦ، ﺑﻞ ﻋﻦ ﺍﻟﻤﺒﺴﻮﻁ ﺃﻧﻬﻤﺎ ﻭ ﺍﻟﺄﺳﻜﺘﺎﻥ ﺷﻲ ﺀ ﻭﺍﺣﺪ، ﻟﻜﻦ ﻗﺎﻝ: »ﻭ ﻫﻤﺎ ﻋﻨﺪ ﺃﻫﻞ ﺍﻟﻠﻐﺔ ﻋﺒﺎﺭﺓ ﻋﻦ ﺷﻴﺌﻴﻦ، ﻗﺎﻝ ﺑﻌﻀﻬﻢ: ﺍﻟﺄﺳﻜﺘﺎﻥ ﻫﻮ ﺍﻟﻠﺤﻢ ﺍﻟﻤﺤﻴﻂ ﺑﺸﻖ ﺍﻟﻔﺮﺝ ﻭ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮﺍﻥ ﺣﺎﺷﻴﺘﺎ ﺍﻟﺄﺳﻜﺘﻴﻦ ﻛﻤﺎ ﺃﻥ ﻟﻠﻌﻴﻨﻴﻦ ﺟﻔﻨﻴﻦ ﻳﻨﻄﺒﻘﺎﻥ ﻋﻠﻴﻬﻤﺎ ﻭ ﺷﻔﺮﻫﻤﺎ ﻫﻲ ﺍﻟﺤﺎﺷﻴﺔ ﺍﻟﺘﻲ ﻳﻨﺒﺖ ﻓﻴﻬﺎ ﺃﻫﺪﺍﺏ ﺍﻟﻌﻴﻨﻴﻦ، ﻓﺎﻟﺈﺳﻜﺘﺎﻥ ﻛﺎﻟﺄﺟﻔﺎﻥ ﻭ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮﺍﻥ ﻛﺸﻔﺮﻱ ﺍﻟﻌﻴﻨﻴﻦ« [1] ﺑﻞ ﻋﻦ ﺍﻟﺴﺮﺍﺋﺮ ﻭ ﻣﻮﺿﻊ ﺁﺧﺮ ﻣﻦ ﺍﻟﻤﺒﺴﻮﻁ ﺗﻔﺴﻴﺮﻫﻤﺎ ﺑﺬﻟﻚ، ﺑﻞ ﻓﻲ ﻛﺸﻒ ﺍﻟﻠﺜﺎﻡ »ﺍﻟﻔﺮﻕ ﺑﻴﻦ ﺍﻟﺄﺳﻜﺘﻴﻦ ﻭ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮﻳﻦ ﺑﻤﺎ ﺳﻤﻌﺖ ﻫﻮ ﺍﻟﻤﻌﺮﻭﻑ ﻋﻨﺪ ﺍﻟﻠﻐﻮﻳﻴﻦ« ﻗﻠﺖ: ﺇﻟﺎ ﺃﻥ ﺍﻟﻌﺮﻑ ﻋﻠﻰ ﻣﺎ ﺫﻛﺮﻩ ﺍﻟﺄﺻﺤﺎﺏ ﻭ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﺍﻟﻤﺪﺍﺭ ﺑﻌﺪ ﺃﻥ ﻟﻢ ﻳﻌﻠﻢ ﺣﺪﻭﺛﻪ ﻛﻤﺎ ﺣﻘﻖ ﻓﻲ ﻣﺤﻠﻪ. ﻋﻠﻰ ﺃﻥ ﺍﻟﻤﻮﺟﻮﺩ ﻓﻲ ﺍﻟﻨﺼﻮﺹ ﻗﻄﻊ ﺍﻟﻔﺮﺝ ﻟﺎ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮﻳﻦ، ﻗﺎﻝ ﺍﻟﺼﺎﺩﻕ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﺍﻟﺴﻠﺎﻡ ﻓﻲ ﺧﺒﺮ ﻋﺒﺪ ﺍﻟﺮﺣﻤﻦ ﺑﻦ ﺳﻴﺎﺑﺔ [2] ﻓﻲ ﻛﺘﺎﺏ ﻋﻠﻲ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﺍﻟﺴﻠﺎﻡ: »ﻟﻮ ﺃﻥ ﺭﺟﻠﺎ ﻗﻄﻊ ﻓﺮﺝ ﺍﻣﺮﺃﺓ ﻟﺄﻏﺮﻣﻨﻪ ﻟﻬﺎ ﺩﻳﺘﻬﺎ ﻓﺎﻥ ﻟﻢ ﺗﺆﺩ ﺇﻟﻴﻬﺎ ﺍﻟﺪﻳﺔ ﻗﻄﻌﺖ ﻟﻬﺎ ﻓﺮﺟﻪ ﺇﻥ ﻃﻠﺒﺖ ﺫﻟﻚ« ﻭ ﻓﻲ ﺁﺧﺮ [3] »ﺭﺟﻞ ﻗﻄﻊ ﻓﺮﺝ ﺍﻣﺮﺃﺓ ﻓﻘﺎﻝ: ﺃﻏﺮﻣﻪ ﻟﻬﺎ ﻧﺼﻒ ﺩﻳﺘﻬﺎ« ﻭ ﻫﻮ ﻣﺤﻤﻮﻝ ﻋﻠﻰ ﻗﻄﻊ ﺃﺣﺪﻫﻤﺎ ﻛﻤﺎ ﺃﻥ ﺍﻟﺄﻭﻝ ﻣﺤﻤﻮﻝ ﻋﻠﻰ ﻗﻄﻌﻬﻤﺎ ﻣﻌﺎ، ﻭ ﻟﻴﺲ ﻓﻴﻬﻤﺎ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮ، ﻭ ﻟﻜﻦ ﺍﻟﺄﺻﺤﺎﺏ ﻋﺒﺮﻭﺍ ﺑﻪ ﻟﺘﺒﺎﺩﺭﻩ ﻣﻦ ﺍﻟﻔﺮﺝ ﻋﺮﻓﺎ ﺑﺎﻟﻤﻌﻨﻰ ﺍﻟﺬﻱ ﺫﻛﺮﻧﺎﻩ ﺩﻭﻧﻪ 
ﺻﻔﺤﻪ18226-جواهر الکلام فی شرح شرایع الاسلام

 

--------------------
[1]:  1 ﺍﻟﻤﺒﺴﻮﻁ ﺝ 7 ﺹ 149. 
[2]:  2 ﺍﻟﻜﺎﻓﻲ ﺝ 7 ﺹ 313- ﺍﻟﻮﺳﺎﺋﻞ ﺍﻟﺒﺎﺏ- 36- ﻣﻦ ﺃﺑﻮﺍﺏ ﺩﻳﺎﺕ ﺍﻟﺄﻋﻀﺎﺀ ﺍﻟﺤﺪﻳﺚ ﺍﻟﺄﻭﻝ ﻭ ﻟﻜﻦ ﺃﻭﺭﺩ ﺻﺪﺭﻩ ﻓﻘﻂ. 
[3]:  3 ﺍﻟﻮﺳﺎﺋﻞ ﺍﻟﺒﺎﺏ- 36- ﻣﻦ ﺃﺑﻮﺍﺏ ﺩﻳﺎﺕ ﺍﻟﺄﻋﻀﺎﺀ ﺍﻟﺤﺪﻳﺚ 2. 

Edited by mesbah

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1 hour ago, mesbah said:

Things are mixed here.

There have been different forms of that practice, but generally the most extreme form -removal of the whole organ- is given and shown as its sole example, while according to Shia scholars consensus, removal of female organ is punishable by either removal of the sexual organ of the aggressor, or chrging him/her with one complete Diya (bloodmoney of one person), and if only one side of it is removed, the half of a complete Diya should be given to the victim. 

Jawahir alKalam, (classic text of Shia jurisprudence):

]ﺍﻟﺴﺎﺩﺱ ﻋﺸﺮ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮﺍﻥ[ ﺍﻟﺴﺎﺩﺱ ﻋﺸﺮ: ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮﺍﻥ ﻭ ﻫﻤﺎ ﻋﺮﻓﺎ ﺍﻟﻠﺤﻢ ﺍﻟﻤﺤﻴﻂ ﺑﺎﻟﻔﺮﺝ ﺇﺣﺎﻃﺔ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺘﻴﻦ ﺑﺎﻟﻔﻢ ﻛﻤﺎ ﺻﺮﺡ ﺑﻪ ﻏﻴﺮ ﻭﺍﺣﺪ ﻣﻦ ﺍﻟﺄﺻﺤﺎﺏ، ﺑﻞ ﻫﻮ ﻛﺬﻟﻚ ﺃﻳﻀﺎ ﻋﻦ ﻣﺠﻤﻊ ﺍﻟﺒﺤﺮﻳﻦ، ﺑﻞ ﻋﻦ ﺍﻟﻤﺒﺴﻮﻁ ﺃﻧﻬﻤﺎ ﻭ ﺍﻟﺄﺳﻜﺘﺎﻥ ﺷﻲ ﺀ ﻭﺍﺣﺪ، ﻟﻜﻦ ﻗﺎﻝ: »ﻭ ﻫﻤﺎ ﻋﻨﺪ ﺃﻫﻞ ﺍﻟﻠﻐﺔ ﻋﺒﺎﺭﺓ ﻋﻦ ﺷﻴﺌﻴﻦ، ﻗﺎﻝ ﺑﻌﻀﻬﻢ: ﺍﻟﺄﺳﻜﺘﺎﻥ ﻫﻮ ﺍﻟﻠﺤﻢ ﺍﻟﻤﺤﻴﻂ ﺑﺸﻖ ﺍﻟﻔﺮﺝ ﻭ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮﺍﻥ ﺣﺎﺷﻴﺘﺎ ﺍﻟﺄﺳﻜﺘﻴﻦ ﻛﻤﺎ ﺃﻥ ﻟﻠﻌﻴﻨﻴﻦ ﺟﻔﻨﻴﻦ ﻳﻨﻄﺒﻘﺎﻥ ﻋﻠﻴﻬﻤﺎ ﻭ ﺷﻔﺮﻫﻤﺎ ﻫﻲ ﺍﻟﺤﺎﺷﻴﺔ ﺍﻟﺘﻲ ﻳﻨﺒﺖ ﻓﻴﻬﺎ ﺃﻫﺪﺍﺏ ﺍﻟﻌﻴﻨﻴﻦ، ﻓﺎﻟﺈﺳﻜﺘﺎﻥ ﻛﺎﻟﺄﺟﻔﺎﻥ ﻭ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮﺍﻥ ﻛﺸﻔﺮﻱ ﺍﻟﻌﻴﻨﻴﻦ« [1] ﺑﻞ ﻋﻦ ﺍﻟﺴﺮﺍﺋﺮ ﻭ ﻣﻮﺿﻊ ﺁﺧﺮ ﻣﻦ ﺍﻟﻤﺒﺴﻮﻁ ﺗﻔﺴﻴﺮﻫﻤﺎ ﺑﺬﻟﻚ، ﺑﻞ ﻓﻲ ﻛﺸﻒ ﺍﻟﻠﺜﺎﻡ »ﺍﻟﻔﺮﻕ ﺑﻴﻦ ﺍﻟﺄﺳﻜﺘﻴﻦ ﻭ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮﻳﻦ ﺑﻤﺎ ﺳﻤﻌﺖ ﻫﻮ ﺍﻟﻤﻌﺮﻭﻑ ﻋﻨﺪ ﺍﻟﻠﻐﻮﻳﻴﻦ« ﻗﻠﺖ: ﺇﻟﺎ ﺃﻥ ﺍﻟﻌﺮﻑ ﻋﻠﻰ ﻣﺎ ﺫﻛﺮﻩ ﺍﻟﺄﺻﺤﺎﺏ ﻭ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﺍﻟﻤﺪﺍﺭ ﺑﻌﺪ ﺃﻥ ﻟﻢ ﻳﻌﻠﻢ ﺣﺪﻭﺛﻪ ﻛﻤﺎ ﺣﻘﻖ ﻓﻲ ﻣﺤﻠﻪ. ﻋﻠﻰ ﺃﻥ ﺍﻟﻤﻮﺟﻮﺩ ﻓﻲ ﺍﻟﻨﺼﻮﺹ ﻗﻄﻊ ﺍﻟﻔﺮﺝ ﻟﺎ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮﻳﻦ، ﻗﺎﻝ ﺍﻟﺼﺎﺩﻕ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﺍﻟﺴﻠﺎﻡ ﻓﻲ ﺧﺒﺮ ﻋﺒﺪ ﺍﻟﺮﺣﻤﻦ ﺑﻦ ﺳﻴﺎﺑﺔ [2] ﻓﻲ ﻛﺘﺎﺏ ﻋﻠﻲ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﺍﻟﺴﻠﺎﻡ: »ﻟﻮ ﺃﻥ ﺭﺟﻠﺎ ﻗﻄﻊ ﻓﺮﺝ ﺍﻣﺮﺃﺓ ﻟﺄﻏﺮﻣﻨﻪ ﻟﻬﺎ ﺩﻳﺘﻬﺎ ﻓﺎﻥ ﻟﻢ ﺗﺆﺩ ﺇﻟﻴﻬﺎ ﺍﻟﺪﻳﺔ ﻗﻄﻌﺖ ﻟﻬﺎ ﻓﺮﺟﻪ ﺇﻥ ﻃﻠﺒﺖ ﺫﻟﻚ« ﻭ ﻓﻲ ﺁﺧﺮ [3] »ﺭﺟﻞ ﻗﻄﻊ ﻓﺮﺝ ﺍﻣﺮﺃﺓ ﻓﻘﺎﻝ: ﺃﻏﺮﻣﻪ ﻟﻬﺎ ﻧﺼﻒ ﺩﻳﺘﻬﺎ« ﻭ ﻫﻮ ﻣﺤﻤﻮﻝ ﻋﻠﻰ ﻗﻄﻊ ﺃﺣﺪﻫﻤﺎ ﻛﻤﺎ ﺃﻥ ﺍﻟﺄﻭﻝ ﻣﺤﻤﻮﻝ ﻋﻠﻰ ﻗﻄﻌﻬﻤﺎ ﻣﻌﺎ، ﻭ ﻟﻴﺲ ﻓﻴﻬﻤﺎ ﺍﻟﺸﻔﺮ، ﻭ ﻟﻜﻦ ﺍﻟﺄﺻﺤﺎﺏ ﻋﺒﺮﻭﺍ ﺑﻪ ﻟﺘﺒﺎﺩﺭﻩ ﻣﻦ ﺍﻟﻔﺮﺝ ﻋﺮﻓﺎ ﺑﺎﻟﻤﻌﻨﻰ ﺍﻟﺬﻱ ﺫﻛﺮﻧﺎﻩ ﺩﻭﻧﻪ 
ﺻﻔﺤﻪ18226-جواهر الکلام فی شرح شرایع الاسلام

 

--------------------
[1]:  1 ﺍﻟﻤﺒﺴﻮﻁ ﺝ 7 ﺹ 149. 
[2]:  2 ﺍﻟﻜﺎﻓﻲ ﺝ 7 ﺹ 313- ﺍﻟﻮﺳﺎﺋﻞ ﺍﻟﺒﺎﺏ- 36- ﻣﻦ ﺃﺑﻮﺍﺏ ﺩﻳﺎﺕ ﺍﻟﺄﻋﻀﺎﺀ ﺍﻟﺤﺪﻳﺚ ﺍﻟﺄﻭﻝ ﻭ ﻟﻜﻦ ﺃﻭﺭﺩ ﺻﺪﺭﻩ ﻓﻘﻂ. 
[3]:  3 ﺍﻟﻮﺳﺎﺋﻞ ﺍﻟﺒﺎﺏ- 36- ﻣﻦ ﺃﺑﻮﺍﺏ ﺩﻳﺎﺕ ﺍﻟﺄﻋﻀﺎﺀ ﺍﻟﺤﺪﻳﺚ 2. 

Then what is the mild form then that according to "some" shia allows.

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Just now, AkhiraisReal said:

Then what is the mild form then that according to "some" shia allows.

I don't know exactly, it might have been dismissed gradually and only the extreme form survived in certain regions, the whole thing is filled with human rights hoax, feminist propaganda and anti religion stuff, (as if people living before modern era were wild animals!)

Now, any surgery has some bleeding part which produce violent scenes, just go to any average operation room in any hospital to see how disgusting things can be, and there are some people who oppose even male circumsision based on this reason (at this level and for this people male and female circumcision is equally bad and violent) putting this perspective aside, there's no "removal of the organ or its main parts" in Islam, neither sunni nor shia.

in the thread about this very topic, its link posted above, at page5, a person tells the difference about different forms of female circumcision and explains how the correct and minor form is.

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19 minutes ago, AkhiraisReal said:

oes the women / girl / baby need to give her acceptance for the circumcision to be done?

As I said there are questions that apply to both male and female circumcision, or any surgery done to a baby, balancing the long term benefits with some seconds of pain and other forms of answer.

The topic of this thread is the female one.

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On 2017-6-16 at 8:52 AM, AkhiraisReal said:

i have never ever heard about this before, but there was a old thread in shiachat talking about female circumcision in shia islam, and how marjas allowed it.

is this some kind of joke or what?

please note that i am no scholar or anything, but i thought this thing only existed in  the more extreme sunni islam.

Have i mistaken something?

 

Female circumsion is absurd. No you are correct. These are very minor marjas. Pay no attention to them. 

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On 2017-06-19 at 4:02 PM, AfricanShia said:

Female circumsion is absurd. No you are correct. These are very minor marjas. Pay no attention to them. 

Sistani is not a minor marja. I have no idea about this subject nor about sistanis rule. But i posted this for discussion so i can understand what it's all about

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Just now, AkhiraisReal said:

Sistani is not a minor marja. I have no idea about this subject nor about sistanis rule. But i posted this for discussion so i can understand what it's all about

Sistani didnt make such permissible. Please provide references from his official website because no verse from Quran or narrations from Hadith confirm that. 

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On 2017-06-20 at 5:14 PM, AfricanShia said:

Sistani didnt make such permissible. Please provide references from his official website because no verse from Quran or narrations from Hadith confirm that. 

Thats what they said here

i dont have the reference or anything.

 

Can somebody please explain what this is about and where sistani mentions its halal

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