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2 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Yeah. Unlettered as in didnt recieve education such as never went to school. I provided you many verses that strongly counter you opinions as well as my companions yet you produce weak statements Brother and have not properly analyzed the verses provided. 

It's not a weak statement when I show you the black and white, (actual source). It's up to you to ignore it. 

I checked with Webster, the definition hasn't changed.

 

Quote

 

Definition of unlettered

  1. 1a :  lacking facility in reading and writing and ignorant of the knowledge to be gained from books

 

You can decide what words you use to mean whatever, but nobody gets it until they see your own dictionary.

Quote

The sayings in brackets in Quran are interpretations. 

The sayings in brackets are opinion. Opinion with an agenda. Sahih is the best modern example of such corruption. Ahadith contains much more.

Was Muhammad the one and only first Muhammad ever? 

"the one who praises" and "the praised one" are already two different things. Now it means comforter cuz someone said. You guys are all over the place, but you've been taught this so it's impossible for bare facts to distract you. 

You have to understand indoctrination. It's not hard to spot. Every religion has done it, every sub sect of every sect of every branch of every Abrahamic religion has that "special thing" that makes them righter. 

It's every story that ends with the unspoken words, "And that's why we are the only ones with the real truth" hinting all others are wrong, evil, stupid.

That's why some Muslims believe, if they die killing kafir, they get lunch with Muhammad, and 72 virgins for their trouble...and they know that every one of us on this site is kafir. 

My God is not a God of separation and segregation of believers, not in the Bible, not in the Quran, but every religion out there teaches it, and causes it, right out front. Why is that?

 

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9 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Okay now this is not even a logical argument anymore Brother. Arent you a Christian? Muhammad was able to read and write it is just that he didnt recieve any education. That is why he is called unlettered. 

??? Are you doubting me being Christian because I have realised that the books in the Bible are written by humans? Luke, Paul, John and others of wich some today are unknown. Would you also question a Muslim that does not believe that not all suras were written down by Muhammed himself,  but by unknown persons? 

The Bible and the Quran were written by men. Men make mistakes. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

It's not a weak statement when I show you the black and white, (actual source). It's up to you to ignore it. 

I checked with Webster, the definition hasn't changed.

 

You can decide what words you use to mean whatever, but nobody gets it until they see your own dictionary.

The sayings in brackets are opinion. Opinion with an agenda. Sahih is the best modern example of such corruption. Ahadith contains much more.

Was Muhammad the one and only first Muhammad ever? 

"the one who praises" and "the praised one" are already two different things. Now it means comforter cuz someone said. You guys are all over the place, but you've been taught this so it's impossible for bare facts to distract you. 

You have to understand indoctrination. It's not hard to spot. Every religion has done it, every sub sect of every sect of every branch of every Abrahamic religion has that "special thing" that makes them righter. 

It's every story that ends with the unspoken words, "And that's why we are the only ones with the real truth" hinting all others are wrong, evil, stupid.

That's why some Muslims believe, if they die killing kafir, they get lunch with Muhammad, and 72 virgins for their trouble...and they know that every one of us on this site is kafir. 

My God is not a God of separation and segregation of believers, not in the Bible, not in the Quran, but every religion out there teaches it, and causes it, right out front. Why is that?

 

Firstly you just proved my definition of unlettered. Secondly it is not opinion it is interpretation by scholars who studied Quran and Hadith for many years. Yes Muhammad was the first one to obtain the name Muhammad. No one had that before him. Give me verses from Sahih if it is so corrupted please because you havent even given me any proofs to counter mine. 

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24 minutes ago, andres said:

??? Are you doubting me being Christian because I have realised that the books in the Bible are written by humans? Luke, Paul, John and others of wich some today are unknown. Would you also question a Muslim that does not believe that not all suras were written down by Muhammed himself,  but by unknown persons? 

The Bible and the Quran were written by men. Men make mistakes. 

 

 

Not infallible men but Allah taught Muhammad the words, and Muhammad wrote the same exact words into the Quran. Why do you think the Quran is so organized in terms of theology and jurisprudence, things that make more sense.

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1 hour ago, AfricanShia said:

Not infallible men but Allah taught Muhammad the words, and Muhammad wrote the same exact words into the Quran. Why do you think the Quran is so organized in terms of theology and jurisprudence, things that make more sense.

Far from all Muslims agree with you Muhammed could write and read. Are they not Muslims?

Had the Quran been "so organized in terms of theology and jurisprudence", there had not been so many very different interpretations and conflicts between these. 

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3 hours ago, andres said:

Far from all Muslims agree with you Muhammed could write and read. Are they not Muslims?

Had the Quran been "so organized in terms of theology and jurisprudence", there had not been so many very different interpretations and conflicts between these. 

I think you lost this agruement a long time ago. You failed to provide any proofs on your behalf.

:)

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48 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

I think you lost this agruement a long time ago. You failed to provide any proofs on your behalf.

:)

Is it necessary to prove that there are Muslims (the majority?) that believe Muhammed could not write and read? 

Us it necessary to prove that Muslims understand the Quran very differently? 

You are simply avoiding unconveniant truths.

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16 hours ago, andres said:

God did not write the Bible. He did not write the Quran either. According to Muslim belief, God sent an Angel tthat on msny occasions during many years told Muhammed messages from God. Muhammed could not read or write himself, but some of his followers, people that believed the revelations were from God, wrote them down on whatever material available. After Muhammeds death, all these peaces were collected randomly in a Book called the Quran. This does not make the Quran easier to read. What are the chanses these pieces are identical with the words the Angel spoke? Or that nothing is missing? I say 0%.

Brother if you read quran to find truth you will see the authenticity in the quran. 

Now tell me anyone could tell this 1400 years ago.

SEX OF BABY

Females have XX chromosomes, that is, they can only give one X chromosome. But since males have XY chromosomes, then men can either give the X or the Y chromosome. This means, that it is actually the males who determine the sex of the baby (by giving either the X or the Y chromosome).
 

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❝And He (Allāh) creates pairs, male and female, from semen emitted.❞
― Al-Qur'ān, sūrah al-Najm (The Star), Chapter 53, verses 45-46

 


The Qur'ān says that it is the semen that determines whether the baby is male or female. But since semen only comes from males then this means that it is the males who determine the sex of the baby.

EARTH - EGG SHAPED
 

Quote

❝And the earth, moreover. Hath He made egg shaped.❞
― Al-Qur'ān, sūrah al-Nāziʿāt (The Wresters), Chapter 79, verse 30

 


The word daḥāhā (Arabic: دَحاها), means ❛Egg Shaped❜. However, the other meaning of the same word is ❛Spread out❜. Even the translation ❛Spread out❜ is correct as it points towards increase in surface area. Our solar system is 4.57 billion years old. Earth started accreting concurrently with the sun and our neighbouring planets 4.57 billion years ago. However, during the accretion process, the radius of Earth was not spontaneously 6400 km; but rather started a few kilometers long and progressively increased. But the surface area is a function of the radius, that is, as the radius increases the surface area increases (surface area = 4πR2). So the Qur'ān correctly described the surface area as increasing.

This could tell you these words are not from a man. And Allah took the guarantee of it that words won't be changed. And he said if you think these are not the words of God than go an create a verse like this. Now tell me its a open challenge for entire word and if anyone wanna wipe islam from the face of earth they could have made something up but they couldn't. 

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2 hours ago, andres said:

Is it necessary to prove that there are Muslims (the majority?) that believe Muhammed could not write and read? 

Us it necessary to prove that Muslims understand the Quran very differently? 

You are simply avoiding unconveniant truths.

If he couldnt read and write then he wouldnt have been able to write Allah words on paper. You have to look at this from a logical perspective. He was unlettered in the sense that he didnt recieve any education from books,etc. Brother honestly it doesnt matter if the majority thinks that he couldnt read or write and it depends on what type of Muslims we are discussing here Brother. It is very important to know that Muslims have different understandings of the same verses because it is a matter of accuracy and inaccuracy. Im not avoiding anything. If anything you are Brother because I gave you more than enough proofs to prove you wrong yet you cant even counter them and you want to accuse me of avoiding? Brother, bring your toughest questions and I will answer them if thats what it takes. 

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Hi Ron

Of course nobody knew about X and Y. Nobody knew that the female part contributes with an egg either. Seamen was visible however, so the belief that man created the baby and the woman just fed the mans seamen was quite normal back then.

Nobody knew that the poles are closer to the center of the earth than is the equator either. Dont know what Muhammed meant by eggshaped. The earth is much more of a globe than an egg. Had it been eggshaped, the Earths revolutions would not be as regular as it is. 

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6 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

If he couldnt read and write then he wouldnt have been able to write Allah words on paper. You have to look at this from a logical perspective. He was unlettered in the sense that he didnt recieve any education from books,etc. Brother honestly it doesnt matter if the majority thinks that he couldnt read or write and it depends on what type of Muslims we are discussing here Brother. It is very important to know that Muslims have different understandings of the same verses because it is a matter of accuracy and inaccuracy. Im not avoiding anything. If anything you are Brother because I gave you more than enough proofs to prove you wrong yet you cant even counter them and you want to accuse me of avoiding? Brother, bring your toughest questions and I will answer them if thats what it takes. 

Why dont you try to prove to all of your fellow Muslims that Muhammed could write? I do not think you will succed, and I think we shall stop the discussion here.

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7 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Firstly you just proved my definition of unlettered. Secondly it is not opinion it is interpretation by scholars who studied Quran and Hadith for many years. Yes Muhammad was the first one to obtain the name Muhammad. No one had that before him. Give me verses from Sahih if it is so corrupted please because you havent even given me any proofs to counter mine. 

I proved the actual definition of unlettered means can not read or write.

As for your definition... it seems you like to play word games.

You haven't given any proofs to counter, just posts on the typical student studies we see here continually, and the usual dance around the replies.

So far your closest source is the mention of some hadith. Proof for you is that you said it. Other posts are just spaces between your posts. You should stand outside your bubble and see what that looks like. 

Most scholars, (all religions) are funded by someone who has an agenda. I learned this 40 years ago. It's a prominent tactic still used by corporations willing to hide truth for their own increase.  The main Muslim scholar agenda is "Anything but what the Christians say"   Muhammad gave more credit to Christians than any Muslim since. Scholars instilled the contempt, not Muhammad. Not even Muhammad ibn Maslamah.

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14 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Its not interpretation. Its facts. Read the verses provided if you dont believe me. 

 

14 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Christians cant even explain or properly break down the verses of their own book Sister. Look at Ahmed Deedats debates for example. 

I did read the verses. Your interpretation is not " fact". Debates depend upon the debaters. Lol. I've seen all kinds of religious folks win and lose in debates. Extrapolating that to all Muslims, Christians, etc. isn't necessary. My religion professors would probably give whoever-that-is an excellent drubbing. 

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❝And He (Allāh) creates pairs, male and female, from semen emitted.❞

No kidding. According to this God makes male and female. Men emit semen, but can not determine what sex the child is going to be, nor do they have any control over which it will be. They don't even have control over whether their semen will engage an egg. 

If Muhammad would have started with the X, Y, chromosome story we'd all say wow. This is no more than an observation that...babies come from semen.

Yes, the world is egg shaped...human egg shaped. 

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I took interest in Ahmed Deedat years ago, but was disappointed when he pulled the same scholarly stunt as so many.

As so often noted. "proof" comes from starting half way through a Bible chapter, ignoring prior context, creating an obvious gap between truth and what they want you to believe. (for a miserable gain)

It's not unique to Islam, every prior religion has done the same. Not sure why Muslims think they are immune.

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Why dont you try to prove to all of your fellow Muslims that Muhammed could write? I do not think you will succed, and I think we shall stop the discussion here.

Good because everyone has their own opinions but as I mentioned I looked at it from a logical perspective as well as a number of well knowledgeable scholars too. Good day. 

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15 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

I took interest in Ahmed Deedat years ago, but was disappointed when he pulled the same scholarly stunt as so many.

As so often noted. "proof" comes from starting half way through a Bible chapter, ignoring prior context, creating an obvious gap between truth and what they want you to believe. (for a miserable gain)

It's not unique to Islam, every prior religion has done the same. Not sure why Muslims think they are immune.

Bible doesnt have the format of contex like the Quran whereby you have to read verses before and after. If you want I could actually give a number of verses where those verses explains themselves and if you still disagree then you could try to elaborate on it. Agreed?

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27 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

@Son of Placid @andres Again, I find it interesting that Muslims are trying to proof-text with a book they think is "corrupted". Lol. Some very interesting eisegesis going on around here.

Think? Its fact my Sister. Would you like to learn the dark secrets of your Bible your congregation doesnt focus on? Every Sunday all congregations do is pick verses of the bible out of contex and talk about but these are verses in which they revised and seem quite acceptable rather than verses of that which are harsh. At least in Islam we can actually explain our Quran. In Christianity, Christians cant even properly answer a question about the Bible when you ask them instead they avoid it. Christianity is scrambled. 

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@Son of Placid . I think you forgot that there is hundreds of denominations in Christianity and all of them have their own Bibles and each of them say: Oh we are right and the other Christians are going to hell. In Islam there 72 sects but each sect has the same Quran with their own meaning of what each verse means. Also if you properly analyze each sect like Shia Islam and compare it with the others, you can obviously see which is most truthful if you research hard enough. At least Islam is simple. 

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1 hour ago, AfricanShia said:

Think? Its fact my Sister. Would you like to learn the dark secrets of your Bible your congregation doesnt focus on? Every Sunday all congregations do is pick verses of the bible out of contex and talk about but these are verses in which they revised and seem quite acceptable rather than verses of that which are harsh. At least in Islam we can actually explain our Quran. In Christianity, Christians cant even properly answer a question about the Bible when you ask them instead they avoid it. Christianity is scrambled. 

No, actually, Catholics do not. We have a methodology and a lectionary. It covers the entire Scripture in a three year cycle. So if you are observant you will hear the Bible many times over in your lifetime. And homilies by qualified educated people on each part. Orthodox do the same. Most mainstream Protestants are similar. With whom are you hanging out ?

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1 hour ago, AfricanShia said:

@Son of Placid . I think you forgot that there is hundreds of denominations in Christianity and all of them have their own Bibles and each of them say: Oh we are right and the other Christians are going to hell. In Islam there 72 sects but each sect has the same Quran with their own meaning of what each verse means. Also if you properly analyze each sect like Shia Islam and compare it with the others, you can obviously see which is most truthful if you research hard enough. At least Islam is simple. 

As I said, there are not " different Bibles". A great many Christians of any stripe  can use the same ones if they wish and it is usually not the KJV anymore. You are about sixty years behind the times with your info. The translations do not differ in terms of major theological concepts. Christians all have pretty much the same core beliefs. (This is why when a Catholic marries  a Baptist, it is still considered a sacrament by the Church.)

As well, most Christians get along fine and do not think the others are going to hell. You can see most pastors around here going to  interdenominational studies, meetings,  and celebrations all the time. They are good friends. 

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27 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

No, actually, Catholics do not. We have a methodology and a lectionary. It covers the entire Scripture in a three year cycle. So if you are observant you will hear the Bible many times over in your lifetime. And homilies by qualified educated people on each part. Orthodox do the same. Most mainstream Protestants are similar. With whom are you hanging out ?

I have hanged out with Catholics and Jehovahs Witness and Orthodox so I know well enough what im discussing about. I have compared Catholic Bible and Jehovahs Witness in Genesis and Catholic has a slight different story compared to the Jehovahs witness and also the fact that the Catholic Bible has more books than what the Jehovahs Witness' contains so clearly the Bible is quite corrupted just from knowing that. I also know that Catholics really like to enforce the whole Trinity belief when yet the Trinity is a form of associating partners with The Almighty God who created the Earth. Also Catholics like to Aleluia in their Churches and if you translate it will come up as defining the term: Praise Allah. 

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26 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

As I said, there are not " different Bibles". A great many Christians of any stripe  can use the same ones if they wish and it is usually not the KJV anymore. You are about sixty years behind the times with your info. The translations do not differ in terms of major theological concepts. Christians all have pretty much the same core beliefs. (This is why when a Catholic marries  a Baptist, it is still considered a sacrament by the Church.)

As well, most Christians get along fine and do not think the others are going to hell. You can see most pastors around here going to  interdenominational studies, meetings,  and celebrations all the time. They are good friends. 

You said pretty much have the same core beliefs but overall dont have the same beliefs. If im wrong then why does the Catholic version of the Bible have more books than the common Bible such the one Jehovahs witness' use ? Problem is with Christianity is that the beliefs are quite scrambled and all over the place and the picture is never quite clear. As I also recall, The Bible is quite sexist towards Women. May I provide proofs for you

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