Jump to content

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Salam 

I've heard that the Bible translated in Arabic is Illah and not Allah so is this true.

and we also have 1 prophet and 12 imams and together it's 13 and in Christianity 13 is a bad number i don't know why but I've heard it's a good day in Islam right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salaam,

Actually we have 14 infallibles: the Prophet, Lady Fatima, and the 12 Imams. We have 124,000 prophets in total. In Islam, we do not have superstitions around 13.

As for the Arabic Bible, they use the word "Allah" for God: http://copticchurch.net/cgibin/bible/index.php?version=SVD&r=Genesis+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

5 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Salaam,

Actually we have 14 infallibles: the Prophet, Lady Fatima, and the 12 Imams. We have 124,000 prophets in total. In Islam, we do not have superstitions around 13.

As for the Arabic Bible, they use the word "Allah" for God: http://copticchurch.net/cgibin/bible/index.php?version=SVD&r=Genesis+1

Thanks for the answer 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/8/2017 at 5:32 PM, Tryingtolearn said:

Salam 

I've heard that the Bible translated in Arabic is Illah and not Allah so is this true.

and we also have 1 prophet and 12 imams and together it's 13 and in Christianity 13 is a bad number i don't know why but I've heard it's a good day in Islam right?

I believe if you check the ancient Hebrew the prefix is "El" is used. I assume the prefixes El, Al, and Il all come from the same root, but were determined by those who chose. Hebrew has no vowels, thus nobody really knows the proper pronunciation. 

Triskaidekaphobes claim Eve betrayed Adam on a Friday, and Judas was the 13th guest at the last supper, ...voila. It is also murmured, (for lack of any evidence whatsoever, therefore cannot be disputed), that Cain killed Abel on a Friday 13th. 

There are significant numbers mentioned in the Bible for various purposes, but 13 isn't one of them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I believe if you check the ancient Hebrew the prefix is "El" is used. I assume the prefixes El, Al, and Il all come from the same root, but were determined by those who chose. Hebrew has no vowels, thus nobody really knows the proper pronunciation. 

My impression is that the pronounciation of "Jahwe" is uncertain, but that the pronounciation of  "El" is not.

Exodus 6:

"I revealed myself to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as Ēl Shaddāi, but was not known to them by my name, YHVH."

More info:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/12/2017 at 3:14 AM, andres said:

My impression is that the pronounciation of "Jahwe" is uncertain, but that the pronounciation of  "El" is not.

Exodus 6:

"I revealed myself to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as Ēl Shaddāi, but was not known to them by my name, YHVH."

More info:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

It still doesn't put vowels in the Hebrew language, so I'm guessing it's *L, and *L, and *L, dependent on who told the story. It's not uncommon for groups to form their own dialect. 

Check Parisian French to Quebecois, then check New Brunswick French, (50% anglaise), but if you actually do check any, you have to check the language spoken in Gaspésie. Part of Quebec, but whoever taught French to the people had a hair lip and taught the entire community to sound like he did. If you've had any experience with people with a hair lip, it's actually quite a distraction. You will find yourself asking for a repeat. It's hilarious but they don't think so.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

It still doesn't put vowels in the Hebrew language, so I'm guessing it's *L, and *L, and *L, dependent on who told the story. It's not uncommon for groups to form their own dialect. 

Check Parisian French to Quebecois, then check New Brunswick French, (50% anglaise), but if you actually do check any, you have to check the language spoken in Gaspésie. Part of Quebec, but whoever taught French to the people had a hair lip and taught the entire community to sound like he did. If you've had any experience with people with a hair lip, it's actually quite a distraction. You will find yourself asking for a repeat. It's hilarious but they don't think so.

 

There are dialects. Naturally "El" was pronounced differently, but no more different than how Americans and Englishmen pronounce "can't". When it comes to JHWE we no longer know if it was Jahve or Jehova, different words. (a witness family  knocked on our door half an hour ago)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-6-8 at 7:32 PM, Tryingtolearn said:

Salam 

I've heard that the Bible translated in Arabic is Illah and not Allah so is this true.

and we also have 1 prophet and 12 imams and together it's 13 and in Christianity 13 is a bad number i don't know why but I've heard it's a good day in Islam right?

Prophet Muhammad is mentioned many times in the Bible and the Gospel as well the 12 imams. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Prophet Muhammad is mentioned many times in the Bible and the Gospel as well the 12 imams. 

Wrong. Muhammed is not mentioned in the Bible. Nor are the 12 Imams. Muhammed is mentioned in the Quran, but I guess the 12 Imams are not. Or where in the Quran is such text to be found?

Edited by andres

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, andres said:

Wrong. Muhammed is not mentioned in the Bible. Nor are the 12 Imams. Muhammed is mentioned in the Quran, but I guess the 12 Imams are not. Or where in the Quran is such text to be found?

Quran  repeatedly mentions that Muhammad is described in the Torah and in the Gospel and go and read Dueteronomy if you think im wrong. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Quran  repeatedly mentions that Muhammad is described in the Torah and in the Gospel and go and read Dueteronomy if you think im wrong. 

I could not say concerning the Quran, but could you give the reference to one verse where  the Quran say so?

If the Quran really does, the Quran is certainlt wrong. No chanse you have found examples where the Bible speaks about Muhammed and the 12 Imams.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, andres said:

I could not say concerning the Quran, but could you give the reference to one verse where  the Quran say so?

If the Quran really does, the Quran is certainlt wrong. No chanse you have found examples where the Bible speaks about Muhammed and the 12 Imams.

Yes Brother. It is in Deuteronomy. Please read Deuteronomy and you will see that im truthful. Muhammad is the one whom is identified as unlettered and if you look at the Hebrew version he is called by his name: Muhammadim. Also in Dueteronomy as in Surah 2:124 of the Quran, God mentions of the 12 chieftains (12 imams) after raising Abraham's degree to an Imam and revealing to him the Covenant which is about these 12 chieftains which means 12 leaders and the English definition of Imam is leader or it can be identified as chief as well. :) . Please read Deuteronomy and mark the areas that mentions what im mentioning and you will understand what I mean. Please :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Yes Brother. It is in Deuteronomy. Please read Deuteronomy and you will see that im truthful. Muhammad is the one whom is identified as unlettered and if you look at the Hebrew version he is called by his name: Muhammadim. Also in Dueteronomy as in Surah 2:124 of the Quran, God mentions of the 12 chieftains (12 imams) after raising Abraham's degree to an Imam and revealing to him the Covenant which is about these 12 chieftains which means 12 leaders and the English definition of Imam is leader or it can be identified as chief as well. :) . Please read Deuteronomy and mark the areas that mentions what im mentioning and you will understand what I mean. Please :)

There's like 34 chapters to Deuteronomy, I think he wants you to be a bit more specific. I'm not sure you don't have the Imams mixed up with the 12 tribes of Israel. 

Quote

 

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

 

I've heard this before, but...

Which men are they that deliver (a) book, and who is the learned man who won't break the seal?

Are these the same men who deliver it to the man that can't read? If you don't know all of them, you don't know any of them. All these "men" are hypothetical, it's the actions around these men that the chapter is explaining.

You have to go back and look at context.

Quote

 

Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: 

And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision. It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite:

 

You see, the comparison of what the nation of Ariel will face, (as in a vision), is like going to bed hungry and dreaming of eating, only to wake up still hungry. They will want what they cannot have. In the same sense, they will be given a sealed book. The learned man can't read because he can't open a seal, the unlearned man can't read it anyway. They can't learn what they should know. 

The "book" mentioned, transliterated from the Hebrew is "say'-fer" and it describes just about any kind of book, document, scroll, even letter of divorce. "Lo yaw-kole'" from the Hebrew in this case basically means "incapable", (the learned man could not open the seal.) "ash-er'", describing the unlearned man, is translated to English as "him", but in the actual text it means, "whom" in a masculine form. "whom" is not an unlettered prophet, he's just some dude that can't read. 

The nation of Ariel fought against Mount Zion continuously, God confounded them and spread them like dust. 

That's pretty much all the chapter is explaining.

Edited by Son of Placid
fat fingers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Yes Brother. It is in Deuteronomy. Please read Deuteronomy and you will see that im truthful. Muhammad is the one whom is identified as unlettered and if you look at the Hebrew version he is called by his name: Muhammadim. Also in Dueteronomy as in Surah 2:124 of the Quran, God mentions of the 12 chieftains (12 imams) after raising Abraham's degree to an Imam and revealing to him the Covenant which is about these 12 chieftains which means 12 leaders and the English definition of Imam is leader or it can be identified as chief as well. :) . Please read Deuteronomy and mark the areas that mentions what im mentioning and you will understand what I mean. Please :)

As SoP pointed out, Deuteronomy is a long book. I suspect you do not really know where to look for these "proofs". Deuteronomy is however a very famous book, so had you been right, this had been an accepted fact. 

There are Muslims that claim that the Earth is flat or that the Earth is not revolving, because the Quran say so. Other Muslim say the Quran say the opposite. The belief that the Bible or the Quran are perfect divine books, with no human influence, thay one must follow as one understands it, even if this means ignoring common sense, has been, and still is, an obstacle to a sound developement of our human society.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, andres said:

As SoP pointed out, Deuteronomy is a long book. I suspect you do not really know where to look for these "proofs". Deuteronomy is however a very famous book, so had you been right, this had been an accepted fact. 

There are Muslims that claim that the Earth is flat or that the Earth is not revolving, because the Quran say so. Other Muslim say the Quran say the opposite. The belief that the Bible or the Quran are perfect divine books, with no human influence, thay one must follow as one understands it, even if this means ignoring common sense, has been, and still is, an obstacle to a sound developement of our human society.

I will give you the proofs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Deuteronomy 18:18

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

 

ـ رسولُ اللهِ‏ِ (صَلَّيَ اللهُ عَلَيهِ وَ آلِهِ): أنا أديبُ اللّه‏ِ وعليٌّ أدِيبي . 

The Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå said, ‘I have been educated by Allah Himself and Ali has been educated by me.’[Makarim al-Akhlaq, v. 1, p. 51, no. 19]

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The beauty of the king: "You are the most excellent of men". [Psalm 45:2].

In Hadith, Muhammad (saw) says that Allah made him the most perfect of men and that no one is better than which is true because we believe he is the most beloved of Allah. 

ـ رسولُ اللهِ (صَلَّيَ اللهُ عَلَيهِ وَ آلِهِ): ما خَلَقَ اللّه‏ُ خَلقا أفضَلَ مِنّي، ولا أكرَمَ علَيهِ مِنّي. 

The Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå said, ‘Allah has not created a creation better than me, nor dearer to Him than me.’[`Uyoun Akhbar al-Ridha (AS), v. 1, p. 262, no. 22]

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John 1:20-21 was also cited by Muslims as a proof from the canonical gospels that Deuteronomy 18:18 is not a prophecy of the Christ[27] Dr.Abdullah Jahangir claims that according to John 1:20-21, Jews believed the promised Messiah(Jesus) and the promised prophet(Muhammad) would be two separate persons. And that is why, they asked John who he (John) was.He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.”They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.”“Are you the Prophet?”He answered, “No.”(John 1:20-21)[28]

We believe that after Muhammad (saw) there are no other messengers and these propheciea are not prophecies of Christ or else you would be contradicting your beliefs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

His name is "the highly-praised one": "I will perpetuate your memory through all generations; therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever." [Psalm 45:17]

As Shia Muslims we praise Muhammad and his family the Ahlul-bayt because they are the most beloved of Allah. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also since Muhammad did seal Islam and brought Salat(prayers) to people then Deuteronomy 9:18 narrates about when Prophet Moses prostrated himself before God, then fasted for 40 days and for 40 nights. We in Islam have the belief of course that all Prophets before Muhammad prayed Salat and im Islam prostration is the most powerful position within our Salat as Muhammad and Ahlul-bayt have expressed that and the Bible narrated with Moses and in verse 25, Moses says that he kept prostrating himself for 40 days and 40 nights. So out of all types of worship that he could have expressed, why did he express in prostration? Because Moses was a Muslim and Allah Subhanu Wa Ta'alaa commanded him to pray Salat as well as his followers as you can see in Jewish prayers and their similarities of our prayers. Also just to add in the above in Christianity the first commandment says observe Sabbath and we observe Sabbath as that is the day for congregational prayers but how should one pray. A Covenant was made with the Children of Israel as they were commanded to prostrate as Moses did but Christians dont even prostrate as Moses did for 40 days and for 40 nights. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AfricanShia said:

Deuteronomy 18:18

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

 

Deuteronomy was written 1.400 years before Muhammed. During all those years and the 1.400 years that have past after Muhammed, there have been many prophets. Had it read: "In Medina a prophet called Muhammed will be born 1.400 years from now", only one prophet could have been meant. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AfricanShia said:

In Hadith, Muhammad (saw) says that Allah made him the most perfect of men and that no one is better than which is true because we believe he is the most beloved of Allah. 

I do not believe Muhammed said this. Hadits are questioned by Muslims, and Muhammed was an humble man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, andres said:

I do not believe Muhammed said this. Hadits are questioned by Muslims, and Muhammed was an humble man.

I provided the hadith but you didnt read it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, andres said:

Deuteronomy was written 1.400 years before Muhammed. During all those years and the 1.400 years that have past after Muhammed, there have been many prophets. Had it read: "In Medina a prophet called Muhammed will be born 1.400 years from now", only one prophet could have been meant. 

Exactly. Its called a prophecy and clearly you are not providing strong answers anymore Brother. Deuteronomy was written 300 years after Isa. Oldest edition of the Bible is the Sinai edition which came after Isa. No recorded history of Prophets in between Isa (as ) and Muhammad (saw). 

Edited by AfricanShia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • Yes they are considered Muslims but not Mo'mins. Surah Al-Insan, Verse 8:
      وَيُطْعِمُونَ الطَّعَامَ عَلَىٰ حُبِّهِ مِسْكِينًا وَيَتِيمًا وَأَسِيرًا And they give food out of love for Him to the poor and the orphan and the captive:
      (English - Shakir) Surah Al-Insan, Verse 9:
      إِنَّمَا نُطْعِمُكُمْ لِوَجْهِ اللَّهِ لَا نُرِيدُ مِنكُمْ جَزَاءً وَلَا شُكُورًا We only feed you for Allah's sake; we desire from you neither reward nor thanks:
      (English - Shakir) A true mo'min always act to seek the nearness (qurbat) of Allah because he loves Allah (s.w.t).  In the same chapter, you will find a verse mentioning people who love this worldly life: Surah Al-Insan, Verse 27:
      إِنَّ هَٰؤُلَاءِ يُحِبُّونَ الْعَاجِلَةَ وَيَذَرُونَ وَرَاءَهُمْ يَوْمًا ثَقِيلًا Surely these love the transitory and neglect a grievous day before them.
      (English - Shakir) @hasanhh
    • frankly, i think it's the (takfiri) wahhabis that's causing havoc in muslim lands. let's not quarrel among ourselves. [8:46].....do not quarrel for then you will be weak in hearts and your power will depart,..... let's not misled others [16:25] Let them bear, on the Day of Judgment, their own burdens in full, and also (something) of the burdens of those without knowledge, whom they misled. Alas, how grievous the burdens they will bear! don't have to unite. but let's strive as in a race with one another, towards good deeds [5:48]....therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;  
    • A Christian Nation? Ryan LaMothe Photo by Forsaken Fotos | CC BY 2.0 Over the years I have often heard Christians of various political stripes assert that the United States is a Christian nation. More recently, Christian evangelicals, who supported Trump and his campaign slogan of “Make America Great Again,” seemed nostalgic for a white Christian America. One might be tempted to call the belief that the U.S. is a Christian nation a myth, the seeds of which were sown in 1630 when John Winthrop challenged his community to establish a city on the hill, reflecting the covenant of God and Christian charity. Many myths contain a grain or two of truth. Nevertheless, the belief in a Christian nation is more illusion than truth. This might be a provocative claim to many people that requires justification. Let me begin by acknowledging that most of the people who immigrated to America, taking native peoples’ lands, were primarily of various Christian denominations. Some saw this country as the new Promised Land, overlooking the fact that by occupying the land they removed any possibility of promise to the non-Christian people who lived here for millennia. So, I am willing to concede that white European settlers were mainly Christian. This was also true after the War of Independence and in this sense one might say this was a Christian nation in that most of the settlers called themselves Christian. I will come back to this, but for now let me say that this new “Christian nation” was clearly neither a Christian theocracy not a parliamentary system advocating a particular religion. Indeed, the Constitution enshrined the free exercise of religion, while establishing a wall between church and state. If we were to call this budding nation a Christian nation, it was oddly one that proclaimed the freedom of individuals to practice other religions—at least ideally—or no religion at all. Proclaiming the inalienable right of religious freedom would leave open the possibility that another religion might be dominant, which would mean we would no longer be a “Christian nation.” While some people cite numbers or percentage of Christians as a reason for calling the U.S. a Christian nation, others have argued that the U.S. is a Christian nation because it was founded by Christians and, therefore, some of their beliefs and principles were woven into the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.  In reality, the Magna Carta and English Bill of Rights influenced those who penned the Constitution. Also, House Congressional Resolution 331 (1988) acknowledged the influence of the Iroquois Confederacy of Nations in writing the U.S. Constitution.  To be sure there are references to God in the Declaration of Independence, but not in the Constitution, which is not to deny that Christian principles, to some degree, shaped the writing of the Constitution, though it is not entirely clear which principles. More apparent is the secular political influences that shaped founding texts. Indeed, it is more accurate to say the U.S. was founded on English and Enlightenment political values. This will not deter those who will insist that since most colonial and later U.S. citizens nation were Christian, then the U.S. was, by and large, a Christian nation. Fast forward to the present and polls indicate that approximately 84% of people in the U.S. identify as Christians. So, our stalwart believer may proclaim that we are still a Christian nation by percentages alone.  Of course, we might look more closely at those numbers to discover that many of those who self-identify as Christians do not actually belong to a Christian community of faith. In some polling less than 38% of Christians actually go to church. What percentage do we rely on for being a Christian nation—51% or above of those who believe in Christ? Or do we count those who are actually practicing their Christian faith? If it is the latter, then we do not qualify as a Christian nation. Percentages and numbers, though, are hardly adequate measures for determining whether we are a Christian nation or not. It would seem fairer to consider not so much belief, but whether the majority of citizens and their elected representatives embody and live out core principles associated with Christianity. This would be akin to considering whether the claim that we are a democratic nation is valid based on whether citizens and institutions uphold and live out the principles and practices of democracy. Do citizens act in democratic ways? Are there state and non-state institutions that uphold democratic values and principles? Let’s shift to whether we are a “Christian” nation. Do citizens and elected officials adhere to the core principles of Christianity as reflected in the life and ministry of Jesus Christ? Do state and non-state institutions promote Christian principles and practices? The simple answer is no, but it is important to at least identify a few key principles of Christianity. It is apparent in any cursory reading of history that there are various renderings of what it means to live a Christian life. Yet, it is safe to say that the ministry of Jesus Christ incarnates the love and compassion of God, which includes mercy and forgiveness. As Karen Armstrong (1993) notes, the three Abrahamic faiths elevate compassion as a central principle for living a religious life. If we consider love, compassion, mercy, and forgiveness as central principles of being a Christian, then it is evident that these principles are less about mere belief than they are about actions or practices. I think most individual Christians and communities of faith, if they are honest, would say that they fall short of living out these principles. Indeed, Kierkegaard, surveying the landscape of Christian Europe, asked whether a Christian could be found in all of Christendom. No doubt he was aware of how far he and others fail to live out and up to Jesus Christ. More importantly, his query was not just about individuals, but calling Christendom itself into question. Individuals who call themselves Christian should be assessed in terms of the principles of Christianity, not so much to deny their identity, but to indicate to what degree they live out this faith. Those of us who call ourselves Christian know we do not measure up, yet we retain a Christian identity. When individuals use the term Christian to describe their nation, which includes identity, then it is fair game to use the principles as criteria. What does it mean to be called a Christian nation given the violent appropriation of land from Native Americans, which may rightly be called ethnic cleansing? Our ruthless treatment of Native peoples, which continues today, seems a far cry from any Christian principle. Consider how many American Christians legitimated slavery, Jim Crow, and racism. By what Christian principle do these fall under? The exploitation of Cuban, Philippine, and Central American peoples during the decades when the U.S. was a colonial power seems more in line with the principles of the Roman Empire than Christian values. The fire bombings of Dresden and Tokyo and the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. Has the U.S. ever asked for forgiveness for these acts?  This kind of sociopathic brutality is a far cry from Christian compassion, though it is important to acknowledge that Christian communities perpetrated if not supported brutal actions (e.g., lynching). Let’s turn to the killing of around 2 million Vietnamese, which was more in line with the principles of realpolitik than Christian justice. Speaking of justice, read Acts and ask how Christian is it to have huge income and wealth disparities, millions of people without healthcare or inadequate healthcare, food deserts, and 7 million people in the penal system. Does this so-called Christian nation embody or even uphold any of the core values of Christianity? If this is not enough to dissuade people from calling the U.S. a Christian nation, I also raise the fact that I am not sure any nation could be Christian, except in only one sense and that is the view that we are a Christian nation because most citizens self-identify as Christian. That said, it is crucial to recognize that while religious communities can hold forth about their Christian values and principles vis-à-vis organizing the life of the community, nations abide by other principles, principles more in line with Machiavelli and Clausewitz, rather than Christ. To be sure, Constantine launched the West onto the idea of a Christian state, but this idea seemed to be far from anything Jesus had in mind. Moreover, Christ’s motivation, if I can talk about his motivation, seemed to be more about compassion, feeding the poor, healing the sick, etc., than it was about founding a nation. In short, Jesus’ kingdom is not to be found on earth, even though the kingdom of God is among us in acts of love, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness. These are virtues that are inimical the advancement of a nation state, let alone, an empire. So, let’s be honest and acknowledge that the U.S. and its government do not and, perhaps, cannot uphold Christian principles in organizing social or international relations. For this reason, we cannot claim the U.S. is a Christian nation. But I am not sanguine about people accepting this, especially those Christian individuals who are more likely to think of themselves as staunch patriots. By adhering to this belief, more accurately an illusion, they avoid facing the fact that the fundamental principles that actually operate in state-craft, namely, ruthless, rational calculation in the advancement of U.S. economic and political interests, are contrary to Christian principles used to organize the first Christian communities, namely sacrificial love, compassion, forgiveness, and distribution of resources according to needs. I also think there are a few other reasons why many Christian Americans are steadfast in their belief that the U.S. is a Christian nation. First, Christianity has long been the dominant religious tradition in this country and has become, for many, intertwined with a national identity. Even if people recognize that one can be American and from other faith traditions, patriotic Christians’ identity is wedded to national identity. To begin to believe we are not a Christian nation can evoke anxiety and rage because it is a threat to that identity. A second reason for retaining this illusion is that it deflects one from the inherent cruelty of the state’s actions (e.g., drone warfare and the killing of civilians, policing the poor). Even when we find ways to justify violence (e.g., they attacked us first—just war), we can continue to hold out that we are Christian nation. “Christian” denotes something good, unsullied by our excesses. It is analogous to someone saying, after being cruel to someone, “All have sinned. I know this as a Christian and that God still loves me.” Pasting the title Christian over the notion of the state or nation is like trying to cover over the indelible stain of our national sins. Third and relatedly, to come face to face with ourselves, as Carl Jung noted, is a terrible shock for we will see how far we really are from our cherished ideals of ourselves. Our shared histories, which undergird our shared identities, are, more often than not, facades that screen the reality of wrong on the throne and right on the scaffold (Niebuhr, 1941, p. 40).  Better to hold onto the soporific illusions of the title “Christian” than to face our collective past and present sins. As James Baldwin noted Americans “have the most remarkable ability to alchemize all bitter truths into an innocuous but piquant confection and to transform their moral contradictions, into a proud decoration” (1955, p.31)—the proud decoration that we are a Christian nation. Baldwin also wrote, “(F)or there is a great deal of will power involved in the white man’s naïveté” (p.166)—a naiveté fostered by the illusion of a Christian America. So, there are three basic rationales for citizens proclaiming the U.S. is a Christian nation. The first is the view that sheer numbers of people who believe in Christ indicates we are a Christian nation, but this fails because of the low percentages of people who actually practice some version of Christian faith. More importantly it also fails because the Constitution not only does not proclaim this, but actually leaves open the possibility of some other religion having greater numbers of believers, let alone practitioners. A second argument is that the founding documents of the nation are heavily influenced by Christian beliefs and principles. This might seem to be true, but the reality is that there were other influences, including those of Native peoples. Third, individuals may claim that we are a Christian nation because Christian principles and values guide how we understand ourselves and organize society. The truth, however, is that the United States has operated out of other principles more suited to Machiavellian principles of statecraft. One might ask why is it so important to rid ourselves of the illusion that we are a Christian nation. What good will come of it? Isn’t holding this belief an inducement to live out a more moral existence as a nation? As for the second question, one need only go down the depressively long list of cruel, destructive, exploitive, and oppressive actions perpetrated in the name of a Christian nation to see that it has not been an inducement to live a more moral life, though people like Martin Luther King Jr. and others used this to [Edited Out] the consciences of white Americans. If we work to get rid of or limit this illusion, people of other religious and secular faiths may feel more at home in the U.S. Perhaps another benefit would be a growing awareness of the misdeeds done under the name of Christian nation. In facing the sins of our past, there might be a sliver of hope for change. As James Baldwin (2010) notes, “Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced” (p.34). Notes. Armstrong, K. (1993). A History of God. New York: Ballantine Books. Baldwin, J. (1955). Notes of a Native Son. Boston, MA: Beacon Press. Baldwin, J. (2010). The Cross of Redemption: Uncollected writings. New York: Pantheon. Kierkegaard, S. (1846). Concluding unscientific postscript to the philosophical fragments: A mimic-pathetic-dialectic composition: An existential contribution, by Johannes Climacus. Responsible for publication: S. Kierkegaard. Trans. D. Swenson and W. Lowrie (1941). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. Niebuhr, H. R. (1941). Meaning and revelation. New York: Collier Books.
    • If you are thinking that he'll be hurt by your decision then you are right may be he will,but that'll heal.. Moving with him further will make chances to return and heal difficult!! And if you are thinking about people pointing on you or your parents don't worry they will talk till they have that tongue(even if you do nothing they'll say oh!what a poor girl she does nothing :p) select your priorities and then act, it will ease your decisions inshaaAllah... May you find best in Allah's will 
    • Just remembering that incident today on 28th of Safar.  The noha I was listening today mentioning that coffin taken back to home again (may be to remove those arrows) and then taken to jannat-ul-baqee.
×