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23 hours ago, starlight said:

'Society' is a total mess. Everything's been just dumped there. The Social, family and marriage issues was a great forum and always had enough activity. Now family issues advice thread are going to be with the food thread and video game threads??? Wow! someone's ideas of 'greatness'.

[Edit] 'Food pics' with masturbation threads and video games while looking at cool periodic tables 

Lol this one got me

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3 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

the thing is, SC has been around 20 years, and there's been several generations of mod/ admin teams, software upgrades, and all kinds of changes over the years. the structure of SC was honed and perfected by the combined efforts of 2 decades of mods, admins and users. its not like it grew like weeds and needed pruning because no one realised how big its gotten. needing to simplify it because a lot of forums were dead was thought of years ago, and decided against, specifically for the reasons @Haji 2003 has already listed. 

its not about 2000 opinions and no one is happy - its about communicating with people who know what they are talking about, to do it properly the first time. right now on the forum there are plenty of people who have been around since the early 2000s and who could have been used as a resource. fine, an admin was given sole responsibility. that doesn't mean he alone must do everything in secret does it? 

and the fact that the shiachat development team and mods were not even involved or knew about it until it was too late is, well, disgraceful. 

but anyway. I am trying not to get as irritated with this entire debacle as I want to. Its done now. nothing we can do, and its obvious no ones opinions matter, least of all the people who post every day without whom there isnt even a shiachat. 

 

I have only been on SC for 1.5 years or so and I was very used to the way it was laid out. So I can imagine the frustration of the veteran users. 

I guess the only critique I have is that a small note that "change is coming" would have gone a long way. 

A couple of weeks from now, we will be back on the usual topics of tatbir, mutah and self-gratification.

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I miss the blue

Why couldn't they change other things. for example:

1.giving more than 60 likes a day I hate being limited to 60 reached it many times even now I want to like the above post.

2.Instead of blocking all members from following you how about only one having that option would be great.

3.Being able to resize your cover photo.

I liked the blue  but that is just me, green reminds me of the racist Iranian green party, Saudi Arabia, and money. 2/3 of those things I Despise and the 3rd I am okay with which is money. But I agree with the person who says we should vote on the color.

I didn't know there was a final chat part! really sad:( I missed it. :c   

I liked the organization of the old forums. Before I was a member of Shiachat I would come here and because I wanted info on some topic I would find a Shiachat forum or sub forum I guess on that topic like Islamic laws or shia/sunni debates or even politics. Now Its harder.

So far not happy with changes but I guess I don't have to be on Shiachat now do I. I will say Magma I am sure worked very hard and I appreciate the hard work. Still don't like the results of that work.

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Salams All.

So I've been on this forum since.. um.. 1998 and although I'm just in the background, I support, salute and commend the hard work of the few who have taken on the job to sustain this site after the founder have essentially "left".  Its is not an easy job.  Funny,  change since day one has always been controversial and since day 1, no one ever left a site due to "change".  It is the LACK of change that makes this site stale and makes people shut it down from their lives.

I see people bringing up the notion of change management and user acceptance and what not, relating this site to some sort of an enterprise or COTS or a paid service.  It is not.  We're a group of administrators and moderators that provide countless hours for free in the service of this community.  Do we make mistakes? sure.  Are there shortcomings?  Sure.  Can we do a better job communicating, testing and support the site?  Of course, but this is best effort and the quality you're getting is just that.

Although I as the founder do not agree with some of the changes, be it color or forum merging that happened lately, I still support the effort and applaud all the volunteers.  20 years later, this site is still a work in progress and it is only with the efforts of the hard working volunteers and the feedback of our valued members that this site continued to be serving today.

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9 hours ago, Laayla said:

Chatroom is nice but pms within the chatroom should be available for vetern members.  We deserve better! 

I agree with this, but not just veterans, it should be available for people with like 1k+ post count so you don't have random guests and new members harassing people in pms.

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8 hours ago, notme said:

Most, yes. 

Of course there will always be people who disagree just for the sake of disagreement, but in this discussion it looks like at least most people clearly explained their reasons for their concerns in a reasonably polite manner. 

If mistakes have been made that can't be fixed, that's ok, that's part of life. A mature person will admit to them. I'm not saying the entire consolidation is a mistake. I just think some errors were made. I've mentioned them elsewhere and they were not explained satisfactorily.

If you guys meant to cram everything under the sun into two unnavigable forums I disagree with that choice, but it's not my decision to make. Just own it. 

All we (the people) want is to understand what is going on. Is this it, how things are going to remain? Was it a conscious choice or a mistake? Is it still a work in progress? Are people's concerns on the forum reorganization going to be actually addressed, or just dismissed as they have been up to now?

(Apologies if you are one of the people and do not wish for me to be your representative. I just figured someone had to do it and brother repenter quoted me when he asked.)

It's not about 'you guys'. Most admins werent even involved in this  including me. But when someone is trying their best to make this a better place it is decent to let them finish first, then maybe not make a 4 page thread where everyone can say how dissapointing, bad managed, no communication etc etc it has been.

Specially mods, could gave made a thread pointing out their concerns in the mod forum and not join the mob. Just a word of advice, people can heed if they like.

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10 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Hey, I found both the threads, the eat thread and the pic thread. They are both in the subforum "Clubhouse", just like it says in the description:

It seems to be relabelled as Off topic now. But the issue is that the amalgamation of different forums means that these threads could end up being on page 2 or even 3 depending on how much else has been posted.

And pinning them won't help, because there are quite a few similar threads e.g. poor jokes and pinning them all would make the forum unmanageable.

Here's an idea to deal with this mess.

Get rid of Veteran Members Forum (the craziest idea on planet Earth since electing Trump and Brexit) and replace it with a Top Threads forum, which contains the most favouritest threads on Shiachat.

 

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ok look, none of us are complaining just because we love complaining. all of us are invested in this website, love it, and want it to continue to be the best. I know its being hinted that we are just a bunch of whiny babies who reject change and who do not appreciate the hard work of the volunteer management, but this simply isn't the case. we are mad as hell because this change wasn't the job of one person to do on their own in secret, like SC is their dads newsagents. it was the job of the community as a whole because this site is all of ours. think about the combined knowledge and experience of the members here who could have contributed. 

yeah, this whole change was a complete train wreck. just....awful. but whats done is done now. we cant go back to the old structure and we cant go forward with this new structure.

lets figure out together what changes could be applied. i will summarise as best as I can based off the suggestions in this forum. maybe we can discuss them together. 

(1) @Haji 2003 Idea of "top threads" forum is brilliant. maybe a forum of the most viewed, most posted and most liked threads in one place. moving all/ most of the pinned topics here will also free up the front page space for the other forums. 

(2) @notme idea to keep the science and tech forum separate from the mutah and masturbation forum. I have to agree with this. it makes no sense to have them together. maybe underneath "society" we have "hobbies and interests" or something like that? 

(3) I really do not like the fact that the poetry forum has gone. having peoples poems mixed up alongside jokes and memes threads is an insult. could we have maybe a sub forum under hobbies and interests, dedicated to poetry?

(4) @Laayla has the idea for a countdown clock, or some calendar integration into the site. I remember back in the day we had something like this where you could see birthdays of the day and Islamic events of the day. could this be reinstated?

(5) @starlight suggestion to return the leader board to top 10 instead to top 4. 

(6) @Cake has the idea to reinstate the quran, hadith dua forum. maybe have it as a subforum under theology?

these are the suggestions I have seen so far, have I missed anything out? shall we discuss them?

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3 hours ago, repenter said:

It's not about 'you guys'. Most admins werent even involved in this  including me. But when someone is trying their best to make this a better place it is decent to let them finish first, then maybe not make a 4 page thread where everyone can say how dissapointing, bad managed, no communication etc etc it has been.

Specially mods, could gave made a thread pointing out their concerns in the mod forum and not join the mob. Just a word of advice, people can heed if they like.

@magma you're doing a great job. I don't want this criticism to come across as condemnation. I mean it to be constructive. As I've said many times, the streamlining is mostly good. The users just have a few suggestions for improvement. That, and people are surprised and shocked by the suddenness of the transformation. Perhaps future projects should be introduced gradually and after announcement. 

@repenter if the whole plan had been communicated with the public, including the site team, and if the concerns had been addressed rather than dismissed, this discussion would never have reached four pages. 

As for moderators joining in the discussion, we are members too, and I've said plenty in private in the mod forum where it was also dismissed rather than discussed. I don't know whether it matters where I speak. 

If the work is ongoing and member suggestions will be considered, say so. If not, say so. 

Seriously, we just don't want to remain in the dark.

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4 hours ago, repenter said:

Specially mods, could gave made a thread pointing out their concerns in the mod forum and not join the mob. Just a word of advice, people can heed if they like.

If the relevant Admins had extended Mods the courtesy of explaining their plans beforehand then the above would have had merit.

As things stand it doesn't. 

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8 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

If the relevant Admins had extended Mods the courtesy of explaining their plans beforehand then the above would have had merit.

As things stand it doesn't. 

Oh so if one person makes a mistake...we should just abandon the norm? Let's do that with all issues then....

As i said..i give up, if simple principles like this is gonna take an extend essay to explain, then someone else have to take the ball.

 

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Just now, repenter said:

Oh so if one person makes a mistake...we should just abandon the norm?

Well, it wasn' just any old mistake was it?

We've had numerous discussions about how to re-name forums regarding the middle east, so a whole site-wide set of changes was hardly going to be trivial.

Anyone with the self-confidence to pull off this stunt should be able to handle some honest feedback. 

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Everyone, lets please stay calm, positive and do things fi sabilillah.

Lets put forward ideas without negativity, I like some of the ideas as well, such as hajis idea about top popular threads.

But I think we need to let the current changes settle and then look into adding/removing features, lets be patient.

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5 hours ago, repenter said:

It's not about 'you guys'. Most admins werent even involved in this  including me. But when someone is trying their best to make this a better place it is decent to let them finish first, then maybe not make a 4 page thread where everyone can say how dissapointing, bad managed, no communication etc etc it has been.

Specially mods, could gave made a thread pointing out their concerns in the mod forum and not join the mob. Just a word of advice, people can heed if they like.

No offense repenter, because you know how much I respect you, but the fact that most admins weren't even consulted is probably the most damaging statement on this whole thread.

Part of good leadership is being able to bring other people along with your vision, not just imposing it on people with no consultation and without regard for their views. Sometimes it is also necessary to accept that mistakes have been made. It's no good insisting that the changes are for the best, when virtually the entire membership thinks the opposite.

As for voicing these views in public, rather than in the mod forum, then as has already been pointing out, our status as mods didn't count for anything when these decisions are made, so why should it now?

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18 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

No offense repenter, because you know how much I respect you, but the fact that most admins weren't even consulted is probably the most damaging statement on this whole thread.

Part of good leadership is being able to bring other people along with your vision, not just imposing it on people with no consultation and without regard for their views. Sometimes it is also necessary to accept that mistakes have been made. It's no good insisting that the changes are for the best, when virtually the entire membership thinks the opposite.

As for voicing these views in public, rather than in the mod forum, then as has already been pointing out, our status as mods didn't count for anything when these decisions are made, so why should it now?

But that isn't my point. My point is that if someone, in this case was given the green light to go change stuff which he/she has been working on for so long, and is only met with negative comments, specially by the team itself then that needs to be addressed.

If a manager in an organization, any organization, makes a mistake, no matter how small or big, it is common norm not to call him or her out on it infront of everyone. That is why we have private forums. This case it's about communication.

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18 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Although I don't like this change, it is the sincere opinion of someone and they must have put a quite a bit of work into it. So we must give them credit for that. I really wish there was a way to find the place of older threads. Maybe they could have kept the structure of the website as an archive somewhere and placed a link to it?

"quite a bit of work into it."

The word "work" requires "productive effort".

Taking SCer's threads and throwing them into a bigger toy-boxes doesn't meet that requirement.

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25 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

"quite a bit of work into it."

The word "work" requires "productive effort".

Taking SCer's threads and throwing them into a bigger toy-boxes doesn't meet that requirement.

That's not nice and not constructive! 

I'm certain it was well intentioned. Complaints without constructive suggestions were completed on page 1. You missed the opening. We've moved on to suggestions now. 

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2 hours ago, notme said:

That's not nice and not constructive! 

I'm certain it was well intentioned. Complaints without constructive suggestions were completed on page 1. You missed the opening. We've moved on to suggestions now. 

"not constructive" --my comment did follow other SCer comments.

l do not think "intention" counts.

l checked this entire thread, so my constructive suggestions are on another thread. This factoid does substantiate -to some extent- that dumping things together is unorganized and has people confused.

l'II try to find those suggestions and note them here.

Found it: 7 hours ago, at "Site Changes" first page.

Edited by hasanhh
spelling and note of thread "Site Changes"

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My thoughts:

1. The colour change is excellent.

2. Streamlining the website and making it more simple is a good idea. A little work ought to be done for some of the sub-forums and the fact there may be too many pinned threads at times.

3. The new Chat is also excellent.

 

Overall, the forum is significantly better , but more work needs to be done.

Is that a surprise?

The same goes for any work in progress in real life.

People have to be brave to take that first step and risk and then work on from there.

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I record my protest.

This is like coup d'état. One man, or a duo, has practically overtaken the forum to the exclusion of the rest of the team, who should have been consulted before the debacle. 

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On 04/05/2017 at 7:33 AM, repenter said:

It's not about 'you guys'. Most admins werent even involved in this  including me. But when someone is trying their best to make this a better place it is decent to let them finish first, then maybe not make a 4 page thread where everyone can say how dissapointing, bad managed, no communication etc etc it has been.

Specially mods, could gave made a thread pointing out their concerns in the mod forum and not join the mob. Just a word of advice, people can heed if they like.

I have got to agree.

SC is far better now. I was overwhelmed with it before, but it is simpler and more streamlined.  Maybe people could just suggest how to edit some of the subforums? Many of them barely had contributors.

It's easy to complain and make a mob, but can we recognise whoever spent an enormous ammount of time making pretty good changes, though work is obviously also needed?

It's just a forum brothers/sisters. Frankly, i am seeing more outrage over something that can easily be tweaked and fixed in 1 week, than i have seen on global, political issues which will shape sectarian tensions, the entire world in my years of being on SC.

Sorry , but we are living in a bubble.

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The protests in the first couple pages of this thread were completely understandable, but the last bit has just been laughable, to be honest.

It's a forum redesign, guys, not the end of the world.

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9 hours ago, QuranandAhlulbayt said:

I have got to agree.

SC is far better now. I was overwhelmed with it before, but it is simpler and more streamlined.  Maybe people could just suggest how to edit some of the subforums? Many of them barely had contributors.

It's easy to complain and make a mob, but can we recognise whoever spent an enormous ammount of time making pretty good changes, though work is obviously also needed?

You are missing the point completely. I dont know why people keep commenting on the amount of work that went into creating this disaster, as though that magically makes it all worthwhile. Thats like praising the efforts of a moron who spent 12 hours trying to ice skate uphill.

The first issue is that the structure was what made SC so brilliant.

Yes there were a lot of forums and many of them were slow, and sure, it could have used a bit of tweaking, but each forum was focused, so it was easy to enjoy threads all within the same topic such as science, poetry, thinkers discourse and so on.

Now, everything is mixed up, so you had masturbation threads next to mutah threads next to poetry threads next to science threads next to business threads all in the same forum.

The focus and structure has been wrecked. Its the users that have restored some semblance of order back to the forums, not admins. And its the users that are actually coming up with the solutions to get SC back to a decent level.

There isnt sufficient hyperbole to describe how awful it was when we discovered it. Its good to have the brothers forum, sisters forum and reverts forum all merged into one now. Honestly. Im sure all brothers will enjoy seeing menstruation threads in between computer game threads.

and once a thread is off the first page, its very difficult to revisit it later. Which means quality content will be replaced with quantity focused clickbait because thats the sort of stuff that remains on front pages of other websites. We were meant to be different and better than them. 

There are fewer forums which mean that the same amount of traffic is bottlenecked, so to people that dont know any better, it looks like SC has suddenly been revived when it hasnt.

The second issue is that it is no small thing where pretty much all the veteran members of SC - some of whom have been members of this forum longer than other members have been ALIVE - all hate it.

This is because there have been several amazing generations of admins and mods before the current bunch. All have debated changing SC, but ultimately decided against it because it was a clearly stupid idea. 

Finally, the third issue was the means that this occured.

This trainwreck was all done by a single admin, who did not even bother to consult with anyone on the moderating team or development team. Did not think he needed to communicate with the userbase at all, and i suspect from reading between the lines (but cant prove obviously), didnt even tell the other admins fully what was going on. I can only further guess that this admin forgot to make a backup before he dived in feet first, otherwise I am convinced admins would have just restored the website to the last backed up version like they did when SC went down last july.

The admin completely undermined the entire management structure, and made everyone look like fools. No one even knew it was going to happen till after the fact.

I even know whats going to happen now. People will continue to make suggestions, most of which will be ignored, people will give up trying to help and just learn to live with the changes, and once everything is settled down because the people that care the most have just given up trying, all we will hear is gloating and "I told you so"s.

I know most people will just laugh it off as an over reaction/ drama/ whining. But you people do not realise how special and unique this website was, or how its helped & changed so many thousands of shia lives. To those of us who have literally grown up on this forum together, back before facebook or social media or even any shia presence online at all, its actually a home for us.

So when we see one person go crazy and decide they know better than almost 20 years of much smarter people, yeah we are going to get mad. Especially when the changes are rubbish but permanent.

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