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sefket83

Answer to Christian claims about Isa (a.s)

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Jesus' will is distinct from God, even if they overlap, for he said, "Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine." (Luke:22:42)

The ideal Muslim is one who submits his will fully to God. This does not make him God though, because he is still created.

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1 minute ago, Qa'im said:

Jesus' will is distinct from God, even if they overlap, for he said, "Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine." (Luke:22:42)

The ideal Muslim is one who submits his will fully to God. This does not make him God though, because he is still created.

Ok thank you so much

 

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5 minutes ago, sefket83 said:

Christians claim that Isa (a.s) has same intention as Allah so they put equals to Allah. How do we know they are wrong?

What about this:

Surah Al-Insan, Verse 30:

وَمَا تَشَاءُونَ إِلَّا أَن يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا

And you do not please except that Allah please, surely Allah is Knowing, Wise;

(English - Shakir)

 

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2 hours ago, sefket83 said:

Salam alejkum

Christians claim that Isa (a.s) has same intention as Allah so they put equals to Allah. How do we know they are wrong?

Masalam

Indeed, what Christian say is right in the context that intention of God and Jesus are same which is to guide towards welfare and that is what Quran says: "apply the color of God and whose color is better than God".

But this verse is also for every prophet and Momineen who are taught by God so because what teacher and student holds common does not make both same, if student learns something from teacher and apply then it is thought of because of teacher. This is due to the case that Jesus a.s says to give thanks to Lord and pray unto Him not me. 

If the Christians hold such views, I will say that all prophets intended same as God wanted.

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On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 0:44 PM, sefket83 said:

Salam alejkum

Christians claim that Isa (a.s) has same intention as Allah so they put equals to Allah. How do we know they are wrong?

Masalam

Sorry for the slow response time.

"Same lntention" -- l'm not aware of God's expressed "intention" in the Old or New Testaments --which is different from the  Quran where it is revealed (look forward to His-swt Last Day)

"equals" is Biblically incorrect, and not applicable to Isa-as. Using the KJV (King James Version):

-- John 5:30 Isa-as says by himself he can do nothing

--John10:29 (God) is greater than all

--Luke 2:49 Isa-as says he "listens".[l like the use of the word "behooves" in the JUB (Jubilee 2000) edition]

-- Genesis 1:27; 5:1; Deuteronomy 4:32 and elsewhere "God created Man" not the other way around.

-- Malachi 2:10  "Have us not all one Father? Has not One God created us?"

While we are on the Triple-tee superstition, here are a couple of references related to the super-spook (holy ghost) fraud: Psalm 104:30 which you can use as an introduction in its Old Testament use. Then Isaiah 42:5 where you can read that the word "spirit" means animation --to make the body go as a living being rather than a dead chemical heap.

Hope this helps, inshallah.

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On 4/8/2017 at 0:54 PM, Sindbad05 said:

Indeed, what Christian say is right in the context that intention of God and Jesus are same which is to guide towards welfare and that is what Quran says: "apply the color of God and whose color is better than God".

But this verse is also for every prophet and Momineen who are taught by God so because what teacher and student holds common does not make both same, if student learns something from teacher and apply then it is thought of because of teacher. This is due to the case that Jesus a.s says to give thanks to Lord and pray unto Him not me. 

If the Christians hold such views, I will say that all prophets intended same as God wanted.

You don't need to refer to the Quran for this. The New Testament makes it quite clear.

Jesus said, "I and my Father are one"  and that is the proof of unified intent. This is not evidence of anything more.

Jesus called God His Father, always followed by, "Who is in Heaven" He said God was greater than He, He prayed to God. Who prays to themselves? Jesus showed himself to be human in many ways, many times throughout the Gospels. He was as afraid of death in the same way we all are. Jesus was the son of God in the same way we are brothers and sisters. 

Paul's address to the churches normally started with;

Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. They were never equated in all of Paul's letters. 

Trinity wasn't made doctrine until 325, the council of Nicaea. The biggest battle was against Arius, who claimed The indwelt spirit of Jesus was "Lagos", aka The Word", from the OT, and was of "the same essence of God" They finally booted him out of the council, couple years later when he was re admitted, he somehow died. Thus trinity. 

What you will find with Christians, if you are gentle, is that they believe trinity without actually understanding it. Not by their own choice, it's basically blasphemy not to in most circles, Catholic, or Protestant, so they store it away in the back of their minds hoping some day it will be revealed, for obvious reasons. To break out of that "oppression" is to break away from the community. That's why you get the cookie cutter answers, and when questioned they get aggravated. It's still a struggle in their own minds. That's why I say be gentle.

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13 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

You don't need to refer to the Quran for this. The New Testament makes it quite clear.

Jesus said, "I and my Father are one"  and that is the proof of unified intent. This is not evidence of anything more.

Jesus called God His Father, always followed by, "Who is in Heaven" He said God was greater than He, He prayed to God. Who prays to themselves? Jesus showed himself to be human in many ways, many times throughout the Gospels. He was as afraid of death in the same way we all are. Jesus was the son of God in the same way we are brothers and sisters. 

Paul's address to the churches normally started with;

Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. They were never equated in all of Paul's letters. 

Trinity wasn't made doctrine until 325, the council of Nicaea. The biggest battle was against Arius, who claimed The indwelt spirit of Jesus was "Lagos", aka The Word", from the OT, and was of "the same essence of God" They finally booted him out of the council, couple years later when he was re admitted, he somehow died. Thus trinity. 

What you will find with Christians, if you are gentle, is that they believe trinity without actually understanding it. Not by their own choice, it's basically blasphemy not to in most circles, Catholic, or Protestant, so they store it away in the back of their minds hoping some day it will be revealed, for obvious reasons. To break out of that "oppression" is to break away from the community. That's why you get the cookie cutter answers, and when questioned they get aggravated. It's still a struggle in their own minds. That's why I say be gentle.

You said impressive things and to this I agree. Like we Muslims say that God is one who feeds us and take care of us and say the word for Him as "Nourisher" which seems same as word "Father" implying to the one as "sustainer" but Majority Christians took it wrong. You are not wrong in it and totally agree with you. But majority of Christians don't see this belief as you see. 

And about being gentle, I'm gentle with you. It is you always ready for a war.:dwarf:

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War? You must be really sensitive. Here's the thing. You just found out I am not "Majority Christians" 

All I've done is call you guys out on some obvious inaccuracies. Thus far you have not even blinked at the possibility that your opinion of Paul may be tainted. The evidence I could show you, you don't really want. It's not a war, it's a stand off. Neither is what this forum is designed for.

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50 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

War? You must be really sensitive. Here's the thing. You just found out I am not "Majority Christians" 

All I've done is call you guys out on some obvious inaccuracies. Thus far you have not even blinked at the possibility that your opinion of Paul may be tainted. The evidence I could show you, you don't really want. It's not a war, it's a stand off. Neither is what this forum is designed for.

Dont be so pessimistic. This forum is designed for knowledge and if someone want to use this forum for hate and prejudice and then allege this forum to be that then  I am afraid that such person has wrong thoughts and there is no problem in the site.

As for me, yeah I am born sensitive and I believe that humans should be sensitive towards each other this is message of Prophet Jesus a.s and this is message of Prophet Muhammad PBUHHP. If you are not sensitive and want to show your mettle, there are plenty of people in this universe who are eager to show their toughness. I am wrong person to argue in this context :)

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5 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

Relevance?

Well, there is no reason for further burning each other's blood :)

Just keep in mind that Muslims are not enemy of Christians on the basis of humanity and we have been told not to create even a minor trouble for the peaceful Christians and Jews, if anyone deal with Christians and Jews unjustly, we would have to confront our own Prophet PBUHHP for He made it us to respect his agreement with all minorities due to his order. 

Edited by Sindbad05

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

And about being gentle, I'm gentle with you. It is you always ready for a war.:dwarf:

I was just kidding but you are just taking everything serious. So, I think that you are always in stressed condition which I do not like for myself, So I thought that to tell you not to be pessimistic. :D

Wish you a blessed life, you really said about Jesus what I had in my earth the actual definition of word "Father" employed in Bible :D

@Son of Placid

Edited by Sindbad05

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15 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

I was just kidding but you are just taking everything serious. So, I think that you are always in stressed condition which I do not like for myself, So I thought that to tell you not to be pessimistic. :D

Wish you a blessed life, you really said about Jesus what I had in my earth the actual definition of word "Father" employed in Bible :D

Don't worry about me, I'm not that stressed, just curious about your level of avoidance.

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Just now, Son of Placid said:

Don't worry about me, I'm not that stressed, just curious about your level of avoidance.

Level of avoidance, why would I avoid ?

I just don't like taunting tone, which you unfortunately possess, and it may be naturally I suppose. 

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Just now, Sindbad05 said:

Level of avoidance, why would I avoid ?

I just don't like taunting tone, which you unfortunately possess, and it may be naturally I suppose. 

Let\s at least take this back to "True Christianity" instead of hijacking every other thread.

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