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Muhammeds (a.s) extraordinary reason

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2 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

 Think you'll find that Jews certainly do view Noah and Abraham as Prophets. What makes you think they aren't?

What makes you think they are?

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I think there is a serious misunderstanding about the word 'prophet.'

In the English language, a prophet has many meanings. For example, a seer is also a prophet. Someone in this forum defined a prophet as one who prophesies.

Not necessarily so in Islam. A prophet in Islam is generally capable of prophesying. But it is not necessary. The important thing is to convey the message that he is entrusted with. In Islam, a prophet is a person who has some sort of s divine commission.

And while the Bible may not explicitly mention that Abraham and Noah were prophets, many of their actions strongly suggest that they were in communication with God and worked under His command.

For example, Noah was commissioned to build the ark. And that was so because of widespread evil on the planet. Clearly, Noah was in communication with God in the building of the ark and the destruction of evil men during the flood.

And that is what a prophet, in Islamic understanding, is - a person in communication with God, under a divine commission.   

Edited by baqar

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14 hours ago, andres said:

What makes you think they are?

The reason that they had miracles, they talked to angels, the communicated with God, they were sent revelations and they were responsible for guiding their people. If these all things are not for prophet then what are they for ? 

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Hi Baqar and Sindbad

I believe Baqar is correct. The Qurans concept of a prophet is not the same as the Bibles. Adam, Noah and Abraham were not infallible men and monotheism was not established until millenium(s) after they were supposed to have existed. They left no message.

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Just now, andres said:

Hi Baqar and Sindbad

I believe Baqar is correct. The Qurans concept of a prophet is not the same as the Bibles. Adam, Noah and Abraham were not infallible men and monotheism was not established until millenium(s) after they were supposed to have existed. They left no message.

Well, contradictions among the Torah itself tell that they left  many evidence of propagation of monotheism. while those fallible things which were attributed to them were nothing but allegations and lies which Quran calls as changes to the communications. Quran tells constantly that how the Bani Israel killed and insulted Prophets and one such example is found in depraved Torah. 

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19 hours ago, andres said:

What makes you think they are?

In Abraham's case he is explicitly called a Prophet in the book of Exodus:

20 Now Abraham moved on from thereinto the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur. For a while he stayed in Gerar, and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, “She is my sister.” Then Abimelek king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.

But God came to Abimelek in a dream one night and said to him, “You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman.”

Now Abimelek had not gone near her, so he said, “Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation? Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister,’ and didn’t she also say, ‘He is my brother’? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands.”

Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”

 

In Noah's case, although it seems he is never exactly called a Prophet, he would meet all the requirements of any reasonable description of one.

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5 hours ago, andres said:

Hi Baqar and Sindbad

I believe Baqar is correct. The Qurans concept of a prophet is not the same as the Bibles. Adam, Noah and Abraham were not infallible men and monotheism was not established until millenium(s) after they were supposed to have existed. They left no message.

So monotheism is a relatively recent human invention, and yet you believe in it? Interesting...

Of course, Jesus talked about all these people as if they were historical figures, but conveniently you choose to ignore that.

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 Abraham was (according to the Bible) born in a semitic polytheistic family. The Jews that Moses lead out of Egypt were not strictly monotheists (according to the Bible). Solomon (1milennium BC) put up figures of the god El and his wife Ashera in the Temple. Archeology support this. It is strange that Judaism, Christianity and Islam first entered so late in human history. I have no explanstion for this. Only God knows why.

Thanks for your link to Exodus. I have never been taught that Abraham was a prophet. What do other Cristians and Jews say?

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11 hours ago, andres said:

They left no message.

Paper was invented by the Chinese shortly before Christ and the printing press is only 600 years old. So even if they did leave something, one should not be surprised if it has not survived .

The important thing is whether they had  divine commission. While  the Quran categorically insists that they did, even according to the Bible, the lives that they led clearly points to that relationship.

If you wish to insist that they were not prophets, this thread could ramble on endlessly. But if you wish to pause and think, the Quran and Bible apart, in most cases, their persistence in their godly mission alone is enough to point to a divine commission.

5 hours ago, andres said:

I have never been taught that Abraham was a prophet. 

I am glad you now know that he was a prophet.

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1 hour ago, baqar said:

I am glad you now know that he was a prophet.

The question was whether Jews and Christians consider Abraham, Noa and Adam as prophets. You have pointed out that Exodus say God described Abraham as a prophet. This seemingly have been the belief of the writers of Exodus that lived 1.000 years after Anraham is supposed to have lived. I have never regarded Abraham as a prophet, but I am curious to know if other Christians and Jews do. Also concerning  Adam and Noa. 

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1 hour ago, baqar said:

 

Paper was invented by the Chinese shortly before Christ and the printing press is only 600 years old. So even if they did leave something, one should not be surprised if it has not survived .

I have learned that "true"  Muslims believe Islam has existed from the beginning of mankind, wich means a couple of hundred thousand years. Religious belief is one thing, evidence another. The evidence that Islam does not preceed Judaism, the first monotheistic religion from the 1 milennium BC, is overwhealming. Arabs are semites, Jews also are. Semitic religion in the 2 milennium BC is well known. They were all polytheists and many of their gods are known by name. The earliest known writings are from the 4th milennium before Christ. They are not on paper, and they are from the ME region where the first civilisations appeared on earth. As I already have mentioned, some of these Gods are also mentioned in the Bible as Gods worshipped by Jews as late as 2.800 years ago. Archeological findings support the Biblical info.

 

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14 minutes ago, andres said:

They were all polytheists and many of their gods are known by name. 

No, certainly not all.

Adam and Eve were clearly monotheists. And just because the majority of people after them turned towards polytheism does not mean that they was not a small group of monotheists among the sea of polytheists. 

39 minutes ago, andres said:

You have pointed out that Exodus say God described Abraham as a prophet. This seemingly have been the belief of the writers of Exodus that lived 1.000 years after Abraham is supposed to have lived.

I always thought that Christians have respect for the Bible - not just parts of it.

But according to what you say, they don't.

So have you worked out what is true and what is false in the Bible?

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21 minutes ago, andres said:

The evidence that Islam does not precede Judaism, the first monotheistic religion from the 1 milennium BC, is overwhelming.

You don't understand the meaning of the word 'Islam'.

Judaism was 'Islam' in its day and Christianity was 'Islam' in its day.

Islam just means

  • submission to God   and  
  • belief in the Prophet of the day.

                                ****

And Judaism is NOT the first monotheistic religion.

Quite apart from our prophets, in India, monotheism was taught by the Vedas which were written many thousands of years before Judaism.

Try reading the Vedas and you can see for yourself.

 

 

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10 hours ago, baqar said:

You don't understand the meaning of the word 'Islam'.

Judaism was 'Islam' in its day and Christianity was 'Islam' in its day.

Islam just means

  • submission to God   and  
  • belief in the Prophet of the day.

                                ****

And Judaism is NOT the first monotheistic religion.

Quite apart from our prophets, in India, monotheism was taught by the Vedas which were written many thousands of years before Judaism.

Try reading the Vedas and you can see for yourself.

 

 

Hi Baqar.

 Jesus apostles were Christian, followers of Muhammed were Muslims. Jesus and Muhammed never wrote anything themselves, but to suggest that Jesus was teaching Islam is just as hopeless as suggesting that Muhammed teached Christianity. 

From the 2nd millennium and earlier, no monotheistic religions are known. The swastica, a symbol of the Sun-god, also a hindu God, has existed for more than 10.000 years. 

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11 hours ago, baqar said:

No, certainly not all.

Adam and Eve were clearly monotheists. And just because the majority of people after them turned towards polytheism does not mean that they was not a small group of monotheists among the sea of polytheists. 

I always thought that Christians have respect for the Bible - not just parts of it.

But according to what you say, they don't.

So have you worked out what is true and what is false in the Bible?

Do you think the Bible describes Abraham as a true Islamic prophet? 

It is not a matter of true and false, the Bible is a book of ethics and relations between God and humans, containing both myths and real history.

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Hi Baqar.

 Jesus apostles were Christian, followers of Muhammed were Muslims. Jesus and Muhammed never wrote anything themselves, but to suggest that Jesus was teaching Islam is just as hopeless as suggesting that Muhammed teached Christianity. 

From the 2nd millennium and earlier, no monotheistic religions are known. The swastica, a symbol of the Sun-god, also a hindu God, has existed for more than 10.000 years. 

Jesus said God is one and Muhammad also said that God is one. Jesus said that comforter will come who will bring message from God and that meant Prophet Muhammad PBUHHP and Prophet Muhammad PBUHHP said that Jesus was a Prophet and will come with Imam Mehdi a.s on the judgement day. Both propagated one message and both acknowledged each other. :)

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2 hours ago, andres said:

to suggest that Jesus was teaching Islam is just as hopeless as suggesting that Muhammad taught Christianity. 

Then you know nothing about Islam.

Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad all had exactly the same message to mankind. 

But considering that you are not really willing to learn, there is little point in continuing further.

All the best, my friend. . 

 

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2 minutes ago, baqar said:

Then you know nothing about Islam.

Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad all had exactly the same message to mankind. 

But considering that you are not really willing to learn, there is little point in continuing further.

All the best, my friend. . 

 

We have no quotes of the message to mankind that Noa, Adam and Abraham may have said.  We do have from Jesus, you just believe they are faked. 

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18 minutes ago, andres said:

We have no quotes of the message to mankind that Noah Adam and Abraham may have said.  We do have from Jesus, 

I was telling you what Islam says, not what your beliefs are.

Read my earlier post where I said that

  •  "Judaism was 'Islam' in its day and Christianity was 'Islam' in its day."

That is the Islamic belief based on the meaning of the word "Islam."

I was explaining to you the meaning contained in the word "Islam."

Go back and read my posts.

Please!

18 minutes ago, andres said:

you just believe they are faked. 

 I don't.

There may be some things that are not quite right but that does not mean that the gospels are all false.

In fact, you are the one who says that you don't believe everything the Bible says.

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1 hour ago, baqar said:

 

There may be some things that are not quite right but that does not mean that the gospels are all false.

In fact, you are the one who says that you don't believe everything the Bible says.

You call them false. I call them myths. The Jewish Bible was written to encourage the Israelites to abandon the many Gods and be faithful to Jahve, the God of Israel.

Exodus 6:3 say

"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty (El-Shaddai in Hebrew)  but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them"

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1 hour ago, baqar said:

I was telling you what Islam says, not what your beliefs are.

Read my earlier post where I said that

  •  "Judaism was 'Islam' in its day and Christianity was 'Islam' in its day."

That is the Islamic belief based on the meaning of the word "Islam."

I was explaining to you the meaning contained in the word "Islam."

I know islam means submission. Naturally humans have submissioned to their Gods, whoever those Gods were, but that does not make all religions the same. I do not think we disagree on this.

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