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Irrefutable evidence Islam is against rape

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29 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Every Faqih says intercourse with a slave girl is allowed without marriage.

I know it is his tafsir bro, but don't you think his tafsir is more worthy than me, you or anyone on this website because he was a scholar?

As for the website, I do not know them. But I just checked in Arabic (I have Tafsir Al-Mizan downloaded) and the same quotes are there. If you want I can share them.

Consequently, the exceptional clause, "except those whom your right hands possess", will exclude one's married slave girl from this prohibition. It has been narrated in traditions that the master of a married slave woman may take away that woman from her husband, keep her untouched for the prescribed term (Iddah), then have sexual relation with her, and thereafter return her to her husband (marriage after the owner has divorced slave women and divorce for slave is "Two talaqas").

Some exegetes have opined: The exception, "except those whom your right hands possess", means, except those chaste women whom you possess by marriage or as slave. Possession thus implies the right of having sexual pleasure.

But this opinion is not correct, because:

First: It interprets the word, al-muhsanat (married women) as chaste women, and you have already seen how wrong that interpretation is.

Second: The Qur'an always uses the phrase, "those whom your right hands possess", for slaves; not for any other right of benefitting from something.

Likewise, someone has said: The phrase refers to unbeliever married women imprisoned in jihad. A tradition from Abu Sa'id al-Khudri is offered in support, in which he says: "This verse was revealed about the captives of Awtas, where the Muslims had captured some women of the polytheists, whose husbands were in (their) non-Muslim region. When this verse was revealed, an announcer announced, on behalf of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) 'Be careful! The pregnant ones should not be approached for sexual intercourse until they deliver, nor the non-pregnant ones until they complete (their) waiting period"

But apart from weakness of this tradition, it amounts to particularization of the verse without a particularizer.

Therefore, only the meaning given by us is to the point.

QUR'AN: (this is) Allah's ordinance to you; The phrase, "Allah's ordinance to you", means: Adhere to Allah's command which is ordained and prescribed for you... The exegetes have said: "Allah's ordinance to you" is a cognate accusative of an implied verb. The original sentence is supposed to be: Allah has ordained an ordinance for you; the verb was then deleted and the accusative - ordinance - attached to the subject -Allah - in a genitive construction, taking the place of the subject. They have not taken the phrase, "to you", as verbal-noun [in the meaning of,'It is incumbent on you']; because the grammarians say that this phrase, as a verbal-noun, is weak in effect and its object cannot precede it [as it does in this verse]."

QUR'AN: and lawful for you is (all) besides that: [The construction, ma wara'a dhalikum (what is besides that) requires careful consideration.] It uses, ma (what) which is obviously used for 'un-rational' things; the demonstrative pronoun, dhalikum, is used for masculine singular object. Also the phrase is followed by the words: that you seek by means of your wealth. All these factors together make it clear that the relative and demonstrative pronouns refer to the same thing which was implied by the beginning word, "Forbidden", i.e., sexual intercourse, or words like that. Meaning: It is lawful for you to have it with other than what has been described above, that is, to have sexual inter­course after marriage with other than the fifteen prohibited groups - or after obtaining in slavery some other women. In this way the appositional substantive (that you seek them by means of your wealth...) will perfectly enmesh with the rest of the sentence.
Many exegetes have explained this exceptional clause in very amusing ways. One says that the clause, "and lawful for you is (all) besides that", means that all other relatives are lawful to you.

Edited by Sindbad05

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12 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Let me read it fully because I think that you have only posted a part and did not bother to post what Allama Tabatabai says fully. 

Please do not accuse me of anything brother. I gave you the link of my post so you can see if I am wrong.

The link is in my post dear bro.

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2 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Consequently, the exceptional clause, "except those whom your right hands possess", will exclude one's married slave girl from this prohibition. It has been narrated in traditions that the master of a married slave woman may take away that woman from her husband, keep her untouched for the prescribed term, then have sexual relation with her, and thereafter return her to her husband.

Some exegetes have opined: The exception, "except those whom your right hands possess", means, except those chaste women whom you possess by marriage or as slave. Possession thus implies the right of having sexual pleasure.

But this opinion is not correct, because:

First: It interprets the word, al-muhsanat (married women) as chaste women, and you have already seen how wrong that interpretation is.

Second: The Qur'an always uses the phrase, "those whom your right hands possess", for slaves; not for any other right of benefitting from something.

Likewise, someone has said: The phrase refers to unbeliever married women imprisoned in jihad. A tradition from Abu Sa'id al-Khudri is offered in support, in which he says: "This verse was revealed about the captives of Awtas, where the Muslims had captured some women of the polytheists, whose husbands were in (their) non-Muslim region. When this verse was revealed, an announcer announced, on behalf of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) 'Be careful! The pregnant ones should not be approached for sexual intercourse until they deliver, nor the non-pregnant ones until they complete (their) waiting period"

But apart from weakness of this tradition, it amounts to particularization of the verse without a particularizer.

Therefore, only the meaning given by us is to the point.

QUR'AN: (this is) Allah's ordinance to you; The phrase, "Allah's ordinance to you", means: Adhere to Allah's command which is ordained and prescribed for you... The exegetes have said: "Allah's ordinance to you" is a cognate accusative of an implied verb. The original sentence is supposed to be: Allah has ordained an ordinance for you; the verb was then deleted and the accusative - ordinance - attached to the subject -Allah - in a genitive construction, taking the place of the subject. They have not taken the phrase, "to you", as verbal-noun [in the meaning of,'It is incumbent on you']; because the grammarians say that this phrase, as a verbal-noun, is weak in effect and its object cannot precede it [as it does in this verse]."

QUR'AN: and lawful for you is (all) besides that: [The construction, ma wara'a dhalikum (what is besides that) requires careful consideration.] It uses, ma (what) which is obviously used for 'un-rational' things; the demonstrative pronoun, dhalikum, is used for masculine singular object. Also the phrase is followed by the words: that you seek by means of your wealth. All these factors together make it clear that the relative and demonstrative pronouns refer to the same thing which was implied by the beginning word, "Forbidden", i.e., sexual intercourse, or words like that. Meaning: It is lawful for you to have it with other than what has been described above, that is, to have sexual inter­course after marriage with other than the fifteen prohibited groups - or after obtaining in slavery some other women. In this way the appositional substantive (that you seek them by means of your wealth...) will perfectly enmesh with the rest of the sentence.
Many exegetes have explained this exceptional clause in very amusing ways. One says that the clause, "and lawful for you is (all) besides that", means that all other relatives are lawful to you.

Yes this is the wording and from the link I gave you.

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@E.L King Firstly, it says that a person can ask his slave to divorce her slave wife and then after some period, he can marry and then have sexual intercourse, a Segha has to be recited for it as well. It is narrated that once a slave came to Imam Ali a.s saying that "O! Imam Ali a.s, my master wants me to divorce my slave women about whom he never said anything when I asked him". Imam Ali a.s said: "Did you allowed him to marry". The person said: "I kept silent". So, Imam Ali a.s said: "Since you kept silent so it was considered as your agreement for if you really disliked it, you should have opposed it". 

Secondly, read what Ayotullah Tabatai mentions about some other commentators, so, before saying anything against other, please read whole thing so that you may not be thought of a conspirator brother. May Allah AWJ guide you for the sake of Ahle bait a.s.

5 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Some exegetes have opined: The exception, "except those whom your right hands possess", means, except those chaste women whom you possess by marriage or as slave. Possession thus implies the right of having sexual pleasure.

 

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37 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

@E.L King Firstly, it says that a person can ask his slave to divorce her slave wife and then after some period, he can marry and then have sexual intercourse, a Segha has to be recited for it as well. It is narrated that once a slave came to Imam Ali a.s saying that "O! Imam Ali a.s, my master wants me to divorce my slave women about whom he never said anything when I asked him". Imam Ali a.s said: "Did you allowed him to marry". The person said: "I kept silent". So, Imam Ali a.s said: "Since you kept silent so it was considered as your agreement for if you really disliked it, you should have opposed it". 

Secondly, read what Ayotullah Tabatai mentions about some other commentators, so, before saying anything against other, please read whole thing so that you may not be thought of a conspirator brother. May Allah AWJ guide you for the sake of Ahle bait a.s.

 

:salam:

It does not say the word divorce. And Sayyed Tabatabai already said intercourse with slave without marriage is halal.

I would also like to know the source of the hadith you mentioned. Just as you kindly ask me for my sources, I will ask you for your sources.

He was mentioning other commentators on a seperate issue not about the issue we are discussing my dear brother.

31 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Brother, sorry to say but I will always keep my eyes very cautious especially against you. 

Okay my brother. I will PM you the answer insha Allah and you can check for yourself insha Allah. 

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2 hours ago, E.L King said:

Consequently, the exceptional clause, "except those whom your right hands possess", will exclude one's married slave girl from this prohibition. It has been narrated in traditions that the master of a married slave woman may take away that woman from her husband, keep her untouched for the prescribed term, then have sexual relation with her, and thereafter return her to her husband.

Read, here Ayotullah says after "prescrubed period" ,which refers to Iddah and it is commenced if there is "nikah". For separation, he didn't use word "divorce"but it is understood by student of law that separation is done through talaq. Similarly, as separation is understood through talaq, sexual intercourse is understood through marriage.

Reference of event which I quoted is from "Hazrat Ali k faislay by Muhammad Wasi khan". 

Did you read 

3 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Some exegetes have opined: The exception, "except those whom your right hands possess", means, except those chaste women whom you possess by marriage or as slave. Possession thus implies the right of having sexual pleasure.

But this opinion is not correct, because:

 

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3 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Read, here Ayotullah says after "prescrubed period" ,which refers to Iddah and it is commenced if there is "nikah". For separation, he didn't use word "divorce"but it is understood by student of law that separation is done through talaq. Similarly, as separation is understood through talaq, sexual intercourse is understood through marriage.

He got this from the hadith I quoted before, so I don't know how you can claim this is divorce, my dear bro. These are also his words from before:

Consequently, the exceptional clause, "except those whom your right hands possess", will exclude one's married slave girl from this prohibition. It has been narrated in traditions that the master of a married slave woman may take away that woman from her husband, keep her untouched for the prescribed term, then have sexual relation with her, and thereafter return her to her husband.

What do you think of this?

Did you also read my brother where he explicitly said that intercourse with a slave-girl is lawful without marriage? That was the Sayyed's explicit statement. What do you think he meant by this?

As for what the Sayyed was referring to above, he was refuting an opinion where some have claimed that those whom your right hand posseses can only be chaste women.

Thanks dear bro :)

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8 minutes ago, E.L King said:

the master of a married slave woman may take away that woman from her husband, keep her untouched for the prescribed term, then have sexual relation with her, and thereafter return her to her husband.

What a justice! What a display humanity! What a display of moral values!

Lets see what Quran says, to test the tradition:

Surah An-Noor, Verse 32:

وَأَنكِحُوا الْأَيَامَىٰ مِنكُمْ وَالصَّالِحِينَ مِنْ عِبَادِكُمْ وَإِمَائِكُمْ إِن يَكُونُوا فُقَرَاءَ يُغْنِهِمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

 

And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

(English - Shakir)

 

Surah An-Noor, Verse 33:

وَلْيَسْتَعْفِفِ الَّذِينَ لَا يَجِدُونَ نِكَاحًا حَتَّىٰ يُغْنِيَهُمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَالَّذِينَ يَبْتَغُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِمَّا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ فَكَاتِبُوهُمْ إِنْ عَلِمْتُمْ فِيهِمْ خَيْرًا وَآتُوهُم مِّن مَّالِ اللَّهِ الَّذِي آتَاكُمْ وَلَا تُكْرِهُوا فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَاءِ إِنْ أَرَدْنَ تَحَصُّنًا لِّتَبْتَغُوا عَرَضَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَمَن يُكْرِههُّنَّ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ مِن بَعْدِ إِكْرَاهِهِنَّ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

 

And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

(English - Shakir)

 

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4 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

What a justice! What a display humanity! What a display of moral values!

Lets see what Quran says, to test the tradition:

Surah An-Noor, Verse 32:

وَأَنكِحُوا الْأَيَامَىٰ مِنكُمْ وَالصَّالِحِينَ مِنْ عِبَادِكُمْ وَإِمَائِكُمْ إِن يَكُونُوا فُقَرَاءَ يُغْنِهِمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

 

And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

(English - Shakir)

 

Surah An-Noor, Verse 33:

وَلْيَسْتَعْفِفِ الَّذِينَ لَا يَجِدُونَ نِكَاحًا حَتَّىٰ يُغْنِيَهُمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَالَّذِينَ يَبْتَغُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِمَّا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ فَكَاتِبُوهُمْ إِنْ عَلِمْتُمْ فِيهِمْ خَيْرًا وَآتُوهُم مِّن مَّالِ اللَّهِ الَّذِي آتَاكُمْ وَلَا تُكْرِهُوا فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَاءِ إِنْ أَرَدْنَ تَحَصُّنًا لِّتَبْتَغُوا عَرَضَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَمَن يُكْرِههُّنَّ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ مِن بَعْدِ إِكْرَاهِهِنَّ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

 

And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

(English - Shakir)

 

Yes. This narration is strange indeed. I wonder if it is sahih.

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25 minutes ago, E.L King said:

What do you think of this?

It seems to me that Islam gives no right to slave girls. Neither put any obligation on the slave girls for their husbands. 

It seems to me they are treated like sex toys instead of human beings.

Shameful indeed.

Thanks to Almighty Lord that we have Quran among us to test the traditions. Thanks to Almighty Lord that we have with us sunnah of Aimmah (a.s) to understand the verses of Quran.

Edited by Engineer73

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24 minutes ago, E.L King said:

He got this from the hadith I quoted before, so I don't know how you can claim this is divorce, my dear bro. These are also his words from before:

Consequently, the exceptional clause, "except those whom your right hands possess", will exclude one's married slave girl from this prohibition. It has been narrated in traditions that the master of a married slave woman may take away that woman from her husband, keep her untouched for the prescribed term, then have sexual relation with her, and thereafter return her to her husband.

What do you think of this?

Did you also read my brother where he explicitly said that intercourse with a slave-girl is lawful without marriage? That was the Sayyed's explicit statement. What do you think he meant by this?

As for what the Sayyed was referring to above, he was refuting an opinion where some have claimed that those whom your right hand posseses can only be chaste women.

Thanks dear bro :)

Did you read "keep untouched for prescribed time" so, there are rules Bro.  You cannot just free from "marriage"without "divorce"and without "iddah". Ok, even if a person has a slave girl through a deed, it may be that many scholars consider it to be sufficent for sexual relations but even in that case after manumasion she has to go though iddah because slave girl is in possession by islamic law therefore other arrangements have to be performed islamically. If there is no iddah, then child parentage is difficult to be ascertained. 

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6 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

What if you have a slave girl and you release her and she marries to another person and since there is no marriage,  there is no Iddah and if she is pregnant and neither you nor she knows what will happen if child is born from it from whom will the child inherit? 

I believe I found the answer to this in Minhaj Al-Saliheen by Sayyed Al-Khoei dear bro.

يجب على مشتري الجارية من الرجل استبراؤها بحيضة إذا لم يستبرئها البائع إلا إذا علم بعدم كونها موطوءة وتقدم تفصيل ذلك في مسائل بيع الحيوان .

http://www.al-khoei.us/books/?id=6767

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Just now, Sindbad05 said:

Did you read "keep untouched for prescribed time" so, there are rules Bro.  You cannot just free from "marriage"without "divorce"and without "iddah". Ok, even if a person has a slave girl through a deed, it may be that many scholars consider it to be sufficent for sexual relations but even in that case after manumasion she has to go though iddah because slave girl is in possession by islamic law therefore other arrangements have to be performed islamically. If there is no iddah, then child parentage is difficult to be ascertained. 

Yes there is iddah you are correct dear bro I just checked on Sayyed Al-Khoei website.

The prescribed time is "haydh" time.

But do you still think marriage is wajib?

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6 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

It seems to me that Islam gives no right to slave girls. Neither put any obligation on the slave girls for their husbands. 

It seems to me they are treated like sex toys instead of human beings.

Shameful indeed.

Depends on person to person, If I were living in that time and Islam had permitted to buy a slave-girl, then I would have freed her and then married her as our Imams did. 

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Just now, Engineer73 said:

It is obvious, otherwise it would be called zina. 

There has to be any sort of segha.

@Engineer73 It is still unclear topic for me, as I read in a Book that there are "Two Talaqs" for slave girls, so, it requires a detailed jusrisprudential thought. I have to search for it. 

It may be that Allah AWJ considers "Deed of Possession" as "Legal" and, therefore, no need to perform "Segha" as it is God who defines laws not us. 

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6 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

may be that Allah AWJ considers "Deed of Possession" as "Legal" and, therefore, no need to perform "Segha" as it is God who defines laws not us. 

Surah An-Noor, Verse 32:

وَأَنكِحُوا الْأَيَامَىٰ مِنكُمْ وَالصَّالِحِينَ مِنْ عِبَادِكُمْ وَإِمَائِكُمْ إِن يَكُونُوا فُقَرَاءَ يُغْنِهِمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

(English - Shakir)

 

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1 minute ago, Engineer73 said:

And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

It is about Slave males and Slave females, who can marry with the permission of "Owners". 

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26 minutes ago, E.L King said:

And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

This verse was revealed when a person had bought "Slave-girls" and was using them for business so one of the slave girl escaped and reached to Prophet PBUHHP, Prophet PBUHHP said to that person do not do it again and this verse was revealed in that context. 

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13 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

@Engineer73 It is still unclear topic for me, as I read in a Book that there are "Two Talaqs" for slave girls, so, it requires a detailed jusrisprudential thought. I have to search for it. 

It may be that Allah AWJ considers "Deed of Possession" as "Legal" and, therefore, no need to perform "Segha" as it is God who defines laws not us. 

Perhaps it refers to say the master allowed the slave girl to get married, then her husband decided to divorce her dear bro? So her husband had to do two talaqs to divorce her.

Edited by E.L King

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Just now, Sindbad05 said:

It is about Slave males and Slave females, who can marry with the permission of "Owners". 

It is not said that arrange marriage of those. The verse starts with "wankehu". So it is quite clear. And look at the wording of this verse too:

Surah An-Noor, Verse 33:

وَلْيَسْتَعْفِفِ الَّذِينَ لَا يَجِدُونَ نِكَاحًا حَتَّىٰ يُغْنِيَهُمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَالَّذِينَ يَبْتَغُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِمَّا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ فَكَاتِبُوهُمْ إِنْ عَلِمْتُمْ فِيهِمْ خَيْرًا وَآتُوهُم مِّن مَّالِ اللَّهِ الَّذِي آتَاكُمْ وَلَا تُكْرِهُوا فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَاءِ إِنْ أَرَدْنَ تَحَصُّنًا لِّتَبْتَغُوا عَرَضَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَمَن يُكْرِههُّنَّ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ مِن بَعْدِ إِكْرَاهِهِنَّ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

(English - Shakir)

 

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

Perhaps it refers to say the master allowed the slave girl to get married, then her husband decided to divorce her dear bro?

hahahaha, dear bro, I am saying you that "if Separation means divorce" then "Sexual intercourse could also mean marriage" but if you rule out this thing, then there is problem of "Iddah" and "Parentage". So, it depends on the case that whether Allah AWJ considers "Legal possession" to be "Nikah" and "Freeing a slave " as "Divorce". Because it depends on the conditions, like if there are two people on an Island and one of them is male and another female and they cannot endure temptations and they do not have "Book for Nikah" then they can say that "O! Allah AWJ we want to contract a Nikah keeping you as Witness", there is a full detail about it and if they say like that Allah AWJ will consider that as Nikah. 

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