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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

in response ^

Well, in response to him

"He (God) is the Originator of the heavens and the earth..." (Quran 6:101)

The first verse points out the the Universe had a beginning (e.g. before that point there was no universe).
 

"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing?  Then will they not believe?" (Quran 21:30)

Muslim scholars have explained that this verse mentions the heavens and Earth were once one, and the Allah caused them to separate and form into what we can observe today. But consider the time this verse was revealed, no one could give that much detail about how the world was created. 
In the pervious verse, the Arabic words ratq and fataq are used. The word ratq can be translated into entitysewn tojoined together, or closed up. The meaning of these translations all circulate around something that is mixed and that has a separate and distinct existence. The ve fataq is translated into We unstictedWe clove them asunderWe separatedWe have opened them. These meanings imply that something comes into being by an action of splitting or tearing apart. 

So in short, the Big Bang Theory states: The universe didn't always exist, then an incredibly dense, hot explosion that created the universe.
The Qur'an states: The universe didn't always exist, Allah commanded it into existance, then split the heaven (everything above the Earth (e.g. space)) apart for the Earth.

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2 hours ago, David66 said:

Hello,

The crux of most of the arguments presented seem to be "All that I see around me in nature is proof of God's existence and substantiates my religious beliefs."

I think the alien, if they were nice aliens, would simply look at you and smile and ask "But who created God?"

All the Best,

David

 

I would tell the alien that it is jumping the gun. First, we would have to agree on the base principle that for any creation to exist, there must exist a Creator.

Once we reach that agreement then we can discuss the origination of that Creator. Otherwise, how can we discuss the creator of the creator without believing in the creator?

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

On the one hand you are certain that God exists but on the other hand your reasoning could be faulty.  What makes you believe that god exists with certitude then if it isn't through reason?

Emphasis is on "could". I like to think that I have an open enough mind that IF presented with enough evidence, my mind would accept the truth. All reverts believed in something before reverting to Islam so I would like to think I have an open mind to accept "alternate facts" if they are undeniably true.

The earth was flat until proven round. My belief in God is strength based on my reasoning and logic as I know it today. But I only know what I know. Since I don't know what I don't know, it would be stubbornness and egotistical of me to say that if someone provided undeniable proof about the non-existence of God, that I would still believe in God.

Lastly, Islam tells us to not blindly believe in Allah but truly understand (at least try) Allah and sometimes it takes rejecting something to accept it.

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Hello,

27 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

I would tell the alien that it is jumping the gun. First, we would have to agree on the base principle that for any creation to exist, there must exist a Creator.

Once we reach that agreement then we can discuss the origination of that Creator. Otherwise, how can we discuss the creator of the creator without believing in the creator?

 

I agree.  But, I think the human intellect is incapable of comprehending "something from nothing."  And, I think the human intellect is incapable of comprehending infinity space.

Maybe the nice aliens will help us out with that.

All the Best,

David

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3 minutes ago, David66 said:

Hello,

I agree.  But, I think the human intellect is incapable of comprehending "something from nothing."  And, I think the human intellect is incapable of comprehending infinity space.

Maybe the nice aliens will help us out with that.

All the Best,

David

When one defines nice or bad aliens then they are not aliens anymore. Hehehehe.

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2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I would tell the alien that it is jumping the gun. First, we would have to agree on the base principle that for any creation to exist, there must exist a Creator.

Once we reach that agreement then we can discuss the origination of that Creator. Otherwise, how can we discuss the creator of the creator without believing in the creator?

Emphasis is on "could". I like to think that I have an open enough mind that IF presented with enough evidence, my mind would accept the truth. All reverts believed in something before reverting to Islam so I would like to think I have an open mind to accept "alternate facts" if they are undeniably true.

The earth was flat until proven round. My belief in God is strength based on my reasoning and logic as I know it today. But I only know what I know. Since I don't know what I don't know, it would be stubbornness and egotistical of me to say that if someone provided undeniable proof about the non-existence of God, that I would still believe in God.

Lastly, Islam tells us to not blindly believe in Allah but truly understand (at least try) Allah and sometimes it takes rejecting something to accept it.

So you are an agnostic.

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2 hours ago, Bazzi_ said:

Well, in response to him

"He (God) is the Originator of the heavens and the earth..." (Quran 6:101)

The first verse points out the the Universe had a beginning (e.g. before that point there was no universe).
 

"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing?  Then will they not believe?" (Quran 21:30)

Muslim scholars have explained that this verse mentions the heavens and Earth were once one, and the Allah caused them to separate and form into what we can observe today. But consider the time this verse was revealed, no one could give that much detail about how the world was created. 
In the pervious verse, the Arabic words ratq and fataq are used. The word ratq can be translated into entitysewn tojoined together, or closed up. The meaning of these translations all circulate around something that is mixed and that has a separate and distinct existence. The ve fataq is translated into We unstictedWe clove them asunderWe separatedWe have opened them. These meanings imply that something comes into being by an action of splitting or tearing apart. 

So in short, the Big Bang Theory states: The universe didn't always exist, then an incredibly dense, hot explosion that created the universe.
The Qur'an states: The universe didn't always exist, Allah commanded it into existance, then split the heaven (everything above the Earth (e.g. space)) apart for the Earth.

Traditional Muslim scholars never understood the verse regarding "joined entity" to mean anything like a Big Bang. You are referring to modern "scholars" who cannot resist interpreting the Big Bang into a verse which was never before remotely understood in such a way.  Tabattabai explains in his tafsir that this verse is not referring to a Big Band because the verse talks about two conjoints things and never about a single thing (like a singularity which is what the Big Bang model is all about).  In any case, the video I showed shows how inadequate the casual argument is for proving God's existence.  

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2 hours ago, David66 said:

Hello,

I agree.  But, I think the human intellect is incapable of comprehending "something from nothing."  And, I think the human intellect is incapable of comprehending infinity space.

Maybe the nice aliens will help us out with that.

All the Best,

David

That is where the Quran in ayah "Kun Fayakun" (Be. And it is) comes in. 

I know I am a creation, therefore I must have a Creator. As a personal choice, I stop at that and why not stop there.

29 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

So you are an agnostic.

Not quite. Agnostics doubt whether there is a Creator. I have no doubts at all but that is based on only what I know.

There are 4 types of people:

Those who know and know that they know.

Those who know but don't know that they know.

Those who don't know but think that they know.

Those who don't know and know that they don't know.

I think I am the first and fourth type. Based on what I know, I believe God exists. 

In the hypothetical scenario where someone presents insurmountable proof about the non-existence of God, then I will have learned something that I didn't previously know so then hypothetically my belief in God 'should' change if I am true to myself.

An example: we are awaiting the arrival for the 12th Imam (as). Let's say he arrives and tells us that Muslims don't have to pray 5 times per day but 6 times a day. If we know he is the Imam with certainty, what we knew as fact until that moment would change drastically and so would my belief system.

Changing one's belief in light of reason and proof is not agnostism; changing one's belief on a whim would be agnostism.

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9 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

The very possibility (that there could be someone to completely show us how inadequate our I.Q. is and as a consequence demonstrate to us how silly our beliefs are) has HUGE implications for our epistemology.   For one, merely accepting such a possibility implies that you are uncertain about your beliefs because you are indirectly saying that there is a possibility you could be wrong.  And this is a problem which I personally cannot live with.  

I am very much certain that Allah is only God who sent prophets for our guidance. And Muhammad is last of prophets and Ali his successor. When there is certainity present possibity is absent. 

Possibility and chance were actually terms used to create doubts and brainwashing of youth. What Atheists do that old brains among them know how to make people stupid by shooting into dark where they can't see anything but they were wrong themselves because when they give a believer an arrow to shoot in dark, the believing youth instead of shooting in dark will hit him in the face bullseye. 

Don't shoot in the dark @eThErEaL it looks stupid.

 

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8 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

That is where the Quran in ayah "Kun Fayakun" (Be. And it is) comes in. 

I know I am a creation, therefore I must have a Creator. As a personal choice, I stop at that and why not stop there.

Not quite. Agnostics doubt whether there is a Creator. I have no doubts at all but that is based on only what I know.

There are 4 types of people:

Those who know and know that they know.

Those who know but don't know that they know.

Those who don't know but think that they know.

Those who don't know and know that they don't know.

I think I am the first and fourth type. Based on what I know, I believe God exists. 

In the hypothetical scenario where someone presents insurmountable proof about the non-existence of God, then I will have learned something that I didn't previously know so then hypothetically my belief in God 'should' change if I am true to myself.

An example: we are awaiting the arrival for the 12th Imam (as). Let's say he arrives and tells us that Muslims don't have to pray 5 times per day but 6 times a day. If we know he is the Imam with certainty, what we knew as fact until that moment would change drastically and so would my belief system.

Changing one's belief in light of reason and proof is not agnostism; changing one's belief on a whim would be agnostism.

It was nice hearing your views About how you define agnosticism and certitude etc..

So if I was asked, I would categorize what you said as agnosticism because if I have understood what you have said above, you aren't 100% certain.  By certainty I mean that for any statement to certainly be true it means it couldn't possibly be otherwise.  This is just how I understand certitude.  I believe there is such a knowledge whereby the knower is in fact identical with that which is known.  For example, the certitude of our immediate lived experience of our sensations.

 

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18 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

The very possibility (that there could be someone to completely show us how inadequate our I.Q. is and as a consequence demonstrate to us how silly our beliefs are) has HUGE implications for our epistemology.   For one, merely accepting such a possibility implies that you are uncertain about your beliefs because you are indirectly saying that there is a possibility you could be wrong.  And this is a problem which I personally cannot live with.  

I am very much certain that Allah is only God who sent prophets for our guidance. And Muhammad is last of prophets and Ali his successor. When there is certainity present possibity is absent. 

Possibility and chance were actually terms used to create doubts and brainwashing of youth. What Atheists do that old brains among them know how to make people stupid by shooting into dark where they can't see anything and just speculate things for which they do not have any proof. Thousands of years have passed and no Aliens have ever walked the earth although I hope you do not count angels into Aliens because they do visit often but we cannot see them. And there is always Quran who is constantly showing us that how little our IQ is and How stupid we really are that we are just afraid of creation but not creator. 

If there are creations outside, they are creation as well. So, do not confuse yourself about them because Quran says that "We have made humans into best of moulds". It means that human is not a tiny creation but one among best so they know who to talk to Aliens. 

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9 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Possibility and chance were actually terms used to create doubts and brainwashing of youth. What Atheists do that old brains among them know how to make people stupid by shooting into dark where they can't see anything but they were wrong themselves because when they give a believer an arrow to shoot in dark, the believing youth instead of shooting in dark will hit him in the face bullseye. 

Don't shoot in the dark @eThErEaL it looks stupid.

 

so I am shooting at the dark by making people doubt...?  Not sure I understand what you are talking about.  Mind explaining please?

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6 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

so I am shooting at the dark by making people doubt...?  Not sure I understand what you are talking about.  Mind explaining please?

I am saying that you are one of the victims who believe in things for which there is no concrete evidence and anything which has not concrete foundation to support is fiction. 

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In any case, I'll give my take on the scenario I gave regarding aliens with higher I.Q. Etc...

Any being (regardless of the way they look) that has intelligence and self-awareness is a human (not in any scientific sense that scientists would use course).  

Regarding the possibility for some being to provide evidence that God does not exist:  my answer is that there is no such possibility.  Considering such a possibility would be as absurd as considering the possibility of someone providing evidence that 1 + 1 = 3, or that a triangle in fact has 5 sides.  Just as we are absolutely certain that 1+ 1 = 2 so also we must be even more certain that God exists.  And if we are not, then whatever we think is God is not worthy of the name.  

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34 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

In any case, I'll give my take on the scenario I gave regarding aliens with higher I.Q. Etc...

Any being (regardless of the way they look) that has intelligence and self-awareness is a human (not in any scientific sense that scientists would use course).  

Regarding the possibility for some being to provide evidence that God does not exist:  my answer is that there is no such possibility.  Considering such a possibility would be as absurd as considering the possibility of someone providing evidence that 1 + 1 = 3, or that a triangle in fact has 5 sides.  Just as we are absolutely certain that 1+ 1 = 2 so also we must be even more certain that God exists.  And if we are not, then whatever we think is God is not worthy of the name.  

As you are saying that you speak about Aliens with respect to their I.Q right, But have you read Quran which is praising Humans as to be "Created in best of moulds". This also speaks about every form of beauty among humans including their physical, intellectual and spiritual powers. I tell you that human is one of the most complex things ever. And if there be any Aliens for which there is no proof till today, you will be considered as Aliens as well. Humans are such a beauty that even Angels were wondered by the beauty of this creation and submitted to God that He AWJ was right about Humans. So, I request you that do not consider yourself to be lower and undermine your I.Q. If angels wondered who are much more stronger than us in many aspects, you should be aware that how much elegant creation of God we humans are. 

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23 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

How about this scenario.  Aliens landed and they are so advanced in their mental capacities that they are able to convince us that according to their advanced brains and IQ, that God and religion is all meaningless and that we humans are really stupid to believe in all of that.  Do you grant this can somehow be possible?  That they might be able to "prove" how inadequate our reasons are for believing in god and a religion? 

:) You means they start challenging the principle of causality? Would they not describe their own origin to us, in such case?

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55 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Regarding the possibility for some being to provide evidence that God does not exist:  my answer is that there is no such possibility.  Considering such a possibility would be as absurd as considering the possibility of someone providing evidence that 1 + 1 = 3, or that a triangle in fact has 5 sides.  Just as we are absolutely certain that 1+ 1 = 2 so also we must be even more certain that God exists.  And if we are not, then whatever we think is God is not worthy of the name.  

Agreed with you here. 

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

As you are saying that you speak about Aliens with respect to their I.Q right, But have you read Quran which is praising Humans as to be "Created in best of moulds". This also speaks about every form of beauty among humans including their physical, intellectual and spiritual powers. I tell you that human is one of the most complex things ever. And if there be any Aliens for which there is no proof till today, you will be considered as Aliens as well. Humans are such a beauty that even Angels were wondered by the beauty of this creation and submitted to God that He AWJ was right about Humans. So, I request you that do not consider yourself to be lower and undermine your I.Q. If angels wondered who are much more stronger than us in many aspects, you should be aware that how much elegant creation of God we humans are. 

 

Yes.  I have taken that into consideration.  When I mean "regardless of how they look", I don't mean they can look ugly.  But thy don't have to look anything like how we look like.  Within their own context, given the conditions of the world they come from they are most beautiful.  

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1 hour ago, Engineer73 said:

:) You means they start challenging the principle of causality? Would they not describe their own origin to us, in such case?

 

Why would they challenge the principle of causality?  What does it really have to do with proving God's existence?

Edited by eThErEaL

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2 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

I am saying that you are one of the victims who believe in things for which there is no concrete evidence and anything which has not concrete foundation to support is fiction. 

 
 
 

You seem to think you know what I believe in.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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19 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

in response ^

Usually Science can't offer much when it comes to the first cause argument, but philosophically what problems it could have (good one of course) ?

Edited by Dhulfikar

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2 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

Usually Science can't offer much when it comes to the first cause argument, but philosophically what problems it could have (good one of course) ?

This is with regards the scientific and philosophical problems with using causality to argue for God's existence.    

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9 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

It was nice hearing your views About how you define agnosticism and certitude etc..

So if I was asked, I would categorize what you said as agnosticism because if I have understood what you have said above, you aren't 100% certain.  By certainty I mean that for any statement to certainly be true it means it couldn't possibly be otherwise.  This is just how I understand certitude.  I believe there is such a knowledge whereby the knower is in fact identical with that which is known.  For example, the certitude of our immediate lived experience of our sensations.

So we are always encouraged to not just believe in the principles of faith but believe them with knowledge and reason.

In the hypothetical situation that we are presented with undeniable evidence of the non-existence of God, believing in God would be lying to oneself.

Certitude - forming an opinion based on facts

Agnosticism - forming an opinion based on the opinion of others.

So what are your current views on God and what would it take to change them?

Edited by shiaman14

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Hello,

I think the topic has broken down into a less than constructive discussion.  Buy, I did want to point out,

32 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

So we are always encouraged to not just believe in the principles of faith but believe them with knowledge and reason.

In the hypothetical situation that we are presented with undeniable evidence of the non-existence of God, believing in God would be lying to oneself.

Certitude - forming an opinion based on facts

Agnosticism - forming an opinion based on the opinion of others.

So what are your current views on God and what would it take to change them?

This is not the definition of agnosticism.

Agnosticism: "a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God."

That is the definition.

All the Best,

David

 

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