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Hello,

2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

our universe is finite, we just haven't reached its limits. Only Allah is infinite.

 

If our Universe is finite then what begins where our Universe ends?

And, peoples fear of aliens coming to Earth and taking it over is not just a "Hollywood" generated fear.  It has a strong historical basis.  Throughout history, when civilizations collide, there is almost always a winner and a looser.  Earth generated radio signals have only traveled about 100 light years into space.  Perhaps, 125 light years away is a predatory species with space traveling capability just listening for the dinner bell.

All the Best,

David

 

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23 minutes ago, David66 said:

If our Universe is finite then what begins where our Universe ends?

It begins 13.8 billion light years away. It ends 13.8 billion light years away. The universe is as big as the distance light has travelled since the Big Bang. In other words, our universe is finite.

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1 hour ago, David66 said:

And, peoples fear of aliens coming to Earth and taking it over is not just a "Hollywood" generated fear.  It has a strong historical basis.  Throughout history, when civilizations collide, there is almost always a winner and a looser.  Earth generated radio signals have only traveled about 100 light years into space.  Perhaps, 125 light years away is a predatory species with space traveling capability just listening for the dinner bell.

All the Best,

David

Yes, that is mankind's nature but does not mean that another species will do the same.

So perhaps 125 miles away is a species that has never seen war.

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^ Hello,

5 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Yes, that is mankind's nature but does not mean that another species will do the same.

So perhaps 125 miles away is a species that has never seen war.

I doubt that.  But, if there is, they will view us as a very dangerous and violent species.  They will either avoid us like the plague or eradicate us before we can spread through out the Universe.

All the Best,

David

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11 hours ago, David66 said:

^ Hello,

I doubt that.  But, if there is, they will view us as a very dangerous and violent species.  They will either avoid us like the plague or eradicate us before we can spread through out the Universe.

All the Best,

David

I am not sure if this is God's design or our own flaw but we are limited in our creativity and thinking.

Have you noticed that Hollywood never creates a good-looking alien? Whether it is Star Wars, Star Trek, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc - we can't even seem to fathom a species that looks better than us. So how can we imagine a species that is better than is in terms of dealing with others, thinking beyond war and invasion, existing not to conquer and invade but teach and learn.

The movie Arrival deals with this point to where the Alien species is offering us a gift but we are ready to blow them out of the sky.

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On 3/29/2017 at 7:27 PM, shiaman14 said:

@Engineer73    @Sindbad05    @notme    @ali_fatheroforphans   @power

I think we are in agreement that if aliens do exist, then they will be creations of Allah as well so our concept of divinity remains intact.

The Prophet (saw) is rehmat-ul-alameen - blessing to the universe so then it would stand to reason that he would also be their Prophet so did he exist on Earth and also on the other planet? At the same time or different times? What form?

Would they then have the same Quran as us with same rules and history? For the Alien Quran to exist, there would have to be Adam, Nuh, Ibrahim, Yusuf, Musa, Isa, etc.

Thoughts?

[42:29] Among His proofs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the CREATURES He spreads in them. He is able to summon them, when He wills.

My question regarding this verse is: Which "creatures" are these in heaven or in the universe that Allah swt is referring to??

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On 3/28/2017 at 11:27 PM, shiaman14 said:

Salaam,

I just watched the movie The Arrival.

Will your perspective of Allah, the Prophet, the AhlulBayt and overall Islam change if we are visited by aliens.

If so, how?

There has to be life out there upon the zillions and zillions of galaxies. The Quran also categorically declares that life elsewhere in the universe exists. God says,

"And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and of whatever living creatures He has spread forth in both. And He has the power to gather them together when He pleases." - 42:30

God here states that He's spread life on earth and elsewhere in the universe. It's a very interesting verse and also gives evidence to the Divine origin of the Quran. The Quran was revealed 1500 years ago when astronomy was still in its infancy. At that time it was the astronomy of the Greeks that ruled and which had influenced pretty much every other civilisation up until the time of the astronomer Copernicus. Back then it was universally believed that the earth was a mass of dust that was stationary, it didn't rotate or revolve around any heavenly body and held a unique position in the cosmos the like of which didn't exist anywhere else in the universe and that the heavens, which consisted of layer upon layer of some transparent plastic material, revolved around it. Obviously, this concept of the universe eliminated the possibility of the existence of life elsewhere apart from earth, which they believed was unique and the only habitat for life, but the concept of the universe which the Quran gives us is far different than the one given by the philosophers of the past. The Quran doesn't admit the uniqueness of the earth nor it being stationary. It states,

"Allah is He Who created seven heavens, and of the earth the like thereof." - 63:13

It must be understood that the figure "seven" is often used in the Quran as an expression that symbolises a perfect number, an incredibly large number or one with no definite quantity or something eternal. This is also why in the Bible Allah has talked about the creation of the universe in six days and one, it's an expression and in this instance refers to periods of time, it should not be taken literally. (We know the Bible has been heavily interpolated but some truth and some Divine references have survived). The very first chapter of the Quran, Surah Fatiha, also consists of seven verses, symbolising its perfection and is called the mother of the book as the entire Quran is derived from just those seven verses. The number seven also appears repeatedly in nature, indicating a deliberate design and as if a fingerprint has been left intentionally. A similar concept of "seven heavens" or "seven" is also found in other religions, giving further evidence that all religions were originally revealed by the same One God. It's also why there are seven days in a week. The mystery relating to the number seven and why it's a perfect number is a deep topic and would require a lengthy discussion. 

But regarding the verse above the expression "seven heavens" would mean that the universe contains an enormous number of heavens (galaxies), each having at least one earth to it which is supported by the entire system of that heaven (galaxy).

It wasn't possible for anyone to know this before modern astronomy, but the Quran, a book revealed 1500 years ago, to an unlettered man of the desert, at a time when there was not much known about the universe and people could only conjecture, stated as a fact that there are an enormous number of galaxies and other earths as well as the existence of extraterrestrial life.

But that's not all. The Quran adds even more wonder by stating that one day the life on earth will come into contact with the life elsewhere in the universe whenever God so desires. In the same verse quoted in the beginning, Allah the Exalted says,

"...And He has the power to gather them together when He pleases."

The Arabic expression which is used here for "gather them together" means bringing together the life on earth and the life elsewhere. When, where and how this meeting between the two will take place and whether it'll be a physical contact or one through communication is not specified, but what's definitely stated is that this event will most certainly come to pass whenever God so desires.

Edited by Bazzi_

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On 29/03/2017 at 11:27 PM, shiaman14 said:

@Engineer73    @Sindbad05    @notme    @ali_fatheroforphans   @power

I think we are in agreement that if aliens do exist, then they will be creations of Allah as well so our concept of divinity remains intact.

The Prophet (saw) is rehmat-ul-alameen - blessing to the universe so then it would stand to reason that he would also be their Prophet so did he exist on Earth and also on the other planet? At the same time or different times? What form?

Would they then have the same Quran as us with same rules and history? For the Alien Quran to exist, there would have to be Adam, Nuh, Ibrahim, Yusuf, Musa, Isa, etc.

Thoughts?

I forgot to answer this question. As said by Quran Rasolallah is Rehmatul Alameen. So, Allah AWJ has already granted him miracles to be able to carry out his duties  So, we should not be worried about what and how would he pbuhhp have guided others. It was responsibility of God to guide all creations and He AWJ is doing it since we weren't born.

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How about this scenario.  Aliens landed and they are so advanced in their mental capacities that they are able to convince us that according to their advanced brains and IQ, that God and religion is all meaningless and that we humans are really stupid to believe in all of that.  Do you grant this can somehow be possible?  That they might be able to "prove" how inadequate our reasons are for believing in god and a religion? 

Edited by eThErEaL

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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

How about this scenario.  Aliens landed and they are so advanced in their mental capacities that they are able to convince us that according to their advanced brains and IQ, that God and religion is all meaningless and that we humans are really stupid to believe in all of that.  Do you grant this can somehow be possible?  That they might be able to "prove" how inadequate our reasons are for believing in god and a religion? 

What could aliens say/do to convince somebody that other humans can't already do?

Irrespective, it is God who ultimately guides anyway. 

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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

How about this scenario.  Aliens landed and they are so advanced in their mental capacities that they are able to convince us that according to their advanced brains and IQ, that God and religion is all meaningless and that we humans are really stupid to believe in all of that.  Do you grant this can somehow be possible?  That they might be able to "prove" how inadequate our reasons are for believing in god and a religion? 

Are humans not saying that here ? lolz :hahaha:

They have been saying this and Stephan Hawkings and other useless scientists good for nothing are said to have bigger brains then every human on world but they are liars and so will be Aliens because I will question them myself did you make yourself or someone made you ? If they said that they made themselves than I will ask them why were you extinct then ? And if they say that someone has made them then I will ask them who is that being. 

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6 minutes ago, magma said:

What could aliens say/do to convince somebody that other humans can't already do?

That's the point... we couldn't possibly think about it.  Only those aliens could.  Or are you saying this is impossible.  If so, why?  

 

Quote

Irrespective, it is God who ultimately guides anyway. 

Yes... that is to say... if God exists...

Edited by eThErEaL

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3 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

@eThErEaL

I do not know why people believe lying scientists whose many theories are still theories but do not believe in Prophets whose everything which they said became truth. 

 
 

The aliens could turn out not to be real at all.  But this is not the point.  The point is regarding the possibility of such aliens existing.  The possibility of our IQs and brains being inadequate.  This is about the possibility that we could be wrong in our reasoning.  Do you grant that this is a possibility? Forget about aliens... let us say a human being comes in the near future whose IQ is so superior that our IQ appears to be as good as a dust mote.   

Edited by eThErEaL

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10 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

That's the point... we couldn't possibly think about it.  Only those aliens could.  Or are you saying this is impossible.  If so, why?  

Perhaps for important scientific data, but for the base principle of creation, I don't think so. If anything, the existence of aliens would be more confirmatory for humans there is an overlying creator of the universe. 

15 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Yes... that is to say... if God exists...

If you believe in God, then the statement "God ultimately guides" is sufficient. You are free from the burden of stacking humans on the bottom, aliens above them, and whatever else above that, and so on. 

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3 minutes ago, magma said:

Perhaps for important scientific data, but for the base principle of creation, I don't think so. If anything, the existence of aliens would be more confirmatory for humans there is an overlying creator of the universe. 

If you believe in God, then the statement "God ultimately guides" is sufficient. You are free from the burden of stacking humans on the bottom, aliens above them, and whatever else above that, and so on. 

 
 

But is your belief based on a reasoning which is "possibly" inadequate?  if not, how can you be so certain?

Edited by eThErEaL

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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

But is your belief based on a reasoning which is "possibly" inadequate?  if not, how can you be so certain?

What difference does that make? If you will never believe you will never believe. If you will believe, you will believe. Reasoning will always fall short of explaining everything. 

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. 

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3 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

But is your belief based on a reasoning which is "possibly" inadequate?  if not, how can you be so certain?

 

8 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

The aliens could turn out not to be real at all.  But this is not the point.  The point is regarding the possibility of such aliens existing.  The possibility of our IQs and brains being inadequate.  This is about the possibility that we could be wrong in our reasoning.  Do you grant that this is a possibility? Forget about aliens... let us say a human being comes in the near future whose IQ is so superior that our IQ appears to be as goo

If they are not real, you should not be worried about this topic. 

This is useless to compare your I.Q with anyone other. Since there is nothing, so why are you talking about a thing which does not exist. This is itself a comment due to low I.Q bro, I am sorry to say that. 

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2 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

But is your belief based on a reasoning which is "possibly" inadequate?  if not, how can you be so certain?

So you're asking if a negative space exists in human reasoning, which if filled by more intelligent beings (like aliens), would convince people to disbelieve in God? Like a blind spot? That "inadequate" reasoning by humans leads to a conclusion of God, but a larger picture would lead to the converse? 

I highly doubt that. 

A few things have to be factored:

1. How does revelation play into this?

2. What is the minimum amount of reasoning one needs to believe in God? Is that minimum achievable in this world? If it is, extraterrestrial knowledge becomes redundant and irrelevant. To some, simply looking at the nature around them is sufficient to believe. To others, nothing will make them believe. So I'm not sure more (advanced) knowledge will change opinions either way. It will simply be used as supporting evidence for both sides to confirm their own position. 

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

How about this scenario.  Aliens landed and they are so advanced in their mental capacities that they are able to convince us that according to their advanced brains and IQ, that God and religion is all meaningless and that we humans are really stupid to believe in all of that.  Do you grant this can somehow be possible?  That they might be able to "prove" how inadequate our reasons are for believing in god and a religion? 

Possible? Yes.

Provable? No.

2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 how about kittens?    

kittens over humans? But they are Allah's creation. I am talking about every single alien pic or character you have ever seen. Show me one that is not a perverse version of humanoid or another animal.

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

The aliens could turn out not to be real at all.  But this is not the point.  The point is regarding the possibility of such aliens existing.  The possibility of our IQs and brains being inadequate.  This is about the possibility that we could be wrong in our reasoning.  Do you grant that this is a possibility?

Yes.

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Forget about aliens... let us say a human being comes in the near future whose IQ is so superior that our IQ appears to be as good as a dust mote.   

I am already on SC.

1 hour ago, notme said:

What difference does that make? If you will never believe you will never believe. If you will believe, you will believe. Reasoning will always fall short of explaining everything. 

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. 

So are you saying we can not reason Allah, only believe in him?

 

 

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This is a Thinker's Discourse. 

I lit a spark and @eThErEaL is fanning the fire. 

What happens or how do we react in the face of someone questioning our belief system directly? 

Of course aliens is an extreme example but like he suggested - a person with a higher IQ. We have seen the effects of average level IQ people like Yasir Al-Habib influencing a lot of people. Now imagine a person with a much higher IQ and the ability to sustain an intellectual discussion.

An answer such as "you just have to believe it" is not acceptable because that is the answer every Christian used to give me when I discussed trinity with them back in my college days.

Worth reading - Tradition of Myrobalan Fruit (Hadith al-Halila)

 

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15 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

So are you saying we can not reason Allah, only believe in him?

There is evidence, but the existence of The Creator can never be proven or disproven. We can decide to accept the evidence or not. 

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2 hours ago, notme said:

What difference does that make? If you will never believe you will never believe. If you will believe, you will believe. Reasoning will always fall short of explaining everything. 

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. 

Not sure what you are trying to say.  What is your belief based on?  Are you saying your belief is independent of reason?

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