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I'm having trouble understanding Free Will

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A free will is our capacity to accept or reject divine guidance. It is some sort of limited authority granted to us by the creator.

Can we will anything? Lets see what is meant by "will" philosophically:

"The Will, generally, is that faculty of the mind which selects, at the moment of decision, the strongest desire from among the various desires present. Will does not refer to any particular desire, but rather to the capacity to act decisively on one's desires. Within philosophy the will is important as one of the distinct parts of the mind, along with reason and understanding. It is considered important in ethics because of its central role in enabling a person to act deliberately."

Can we "act decisively" on our desires? We really dont know that even at the time of willing and after that. 

Suppose, I am willing to go to office. I dont really know whether i will be able to reach there or not. I can start acting, but unaware of the outcome of my actions.

:) that is why I used to say "In Sha Allah" for everything I will.

Edited by Engineer73

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20 hours ago, hasanhh said:

This post reminds me of why l personally get disgusted with some classical debate points. They are so mechanistic. Sometimes, like pick-your-favorite-candy formats.

I very much agree with you on the mechanistic angle.

 

20 hours ago, hasanhh said:

At the "coerced" portion is a good place to posit: where is the emotional component? When you are physically coerced and not emotionally coincident, then does not "free will" still exist?

I am not sure I visualise the scenario, can you give an example of what you are thinking?

(apologies for the late reply)

wslm.

*

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12 hours ago, Engineer73 said:

A free will is our capacity to accept or reject divine guidance. It is some sort of limited authority granted to us by the creator.

What do you mean by that? What authority does He grant us?

Do you think God is  Omniscient about everything EXCEPT your actual choice?

*

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51 minutes ago, Quisant said:

What do you mean by that? What authority does He grant us?

Do you think God is  Omniscient about everything EXCEPT your actual choice?

*

God has said in the Quran regarding us that he want us either to choose right or wrong path. For righteous deeds, there is reward and for wrong deeds, there is punishment. He means this. 

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

God has said in the Quran regarding us that he want us either to choose right or wrong path. 

The person you are talking to does not believe in God. He is a full-blown atheist. Little point in telling him what God has told us.

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49 minutes ago, baqar said:

The person you are talking to does not believe in God. He is a full-blown atheist. Little point in telling him what God has told us.

Although, he does not believe in God but he cannot deny the fact that we choose good and evil and eventual consequence of goodness is reward and evil is punishment either it be psychological such being sad or become infamous and no matter how much he try, the consequences of actions are not in his hands and there is someone who has fixed such consequences that he cannot escape it. 

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

Although, he does not believe in God but he cannot deny the fact that we choose good and evil and eventual consequence of goodness is reward and evil is punishment

Of course he can deny that.

The concept of an all-knowing creator God who already knows the outcome of your entire lifespan before he even creates you throws that idea out the window.

When you posit a God whose knowledge of future events is necessarily correct, completely precludes human free will because what you do is already set in stone. . 

By arguing that we have free will you are actively arguing against God being omniscient.

1. God knows you will pick the blue one
2. If God knows you will pick the blue one, you will pick the blue one
3. You pick the blue one

Otherwise God's foreknowledge would be incorrect.
wslm

*

 

 


 

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55 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Of course he can deny that.

The concept of an all-knowing creator God who already knows the outcome of your entire lifespan before he even creates you throws that idea out the window.

When you posit a God whose knowledge of future events is necessarily correct, completely precludes human free will because what you do is already set in stone. . 

By arguing that we have free will you are actively arguing against God being omniscient.

1. God knows you will pick the blue one
2. If God knows you will pick the blue one, you will pick the blue one
3. You pick the blue one

Otherwise God's foreknowledge would be incorrect.
wslm

*

 

 


 

You know, you are still unable to deny him, the reason is that you are saying that "Since God knows everything so everything is happening what he knows so it is his wish and he is cause of every good and evil". This was the same question which I came across but God himself helped me through his Prophet and his pure family. Now, I will tell you where you are wrong.

God knows every consequence of an action whether a good or bad, He AWJ defined result for every act and for every act. He AWJ proposed either a reward or Punishment. He AWj left for you to choose action but consequence is in His hand. Let me illustrate a simple example for you:

                                                                       You can either accept my point of view or deny it. If you accept my point of view with true heart, its consequence is that your spirituality will increase and you will get one step near to heaven, if you deny my point of view, its consequence is that you will become much more obstinate and unjust and one step closer to hell. Now, choice is yours but in either case you cannot escape the consequence and in both cases God knows your future but He AWJ has left you to decide what future you want to have. He knows both future but you can neither limit His knowledge nor escape the phase of choice. Even if you remain to stand silent in every decision, it will be taken as an action. For example:- If you stayed silent while a good person was being persecuted, you will be considered among oppressors and if you stayed silent in the support of Just person, you will be counted from his side. 

Edited by Sindbad05

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55 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Of course he can deny that.

The concept of an all-knowing creator God who already knows the outcome of your entire lifespan before he even creates you throws that idea out the window.

When you posit a God whose knowledge of future events is necessarily correct, completely precludes human free will because what you do is already set in stone. . 

By arguing that we have free will you are actively arguing against God being omniscient.

1. God knows you will pick the blue one
2. If God knows you will pick the blue one, you will pick the blue one
3. You pick the blue one

Otherwise God's foreknowledge would be incorrect.
wslm

*

 

 


 

You know, you are still unable to deny him, the reason is that you are saying that "Since God knows everything so everything is happening what he knows so it is his wish and he is cause of every good and evil". This was the same question which I came across but God himself helped me through his Prophet and his pure family. Now, I will tell you where you are wrong.

God knows every consequence of an action whether a good or bad, He AWJ defined result for every act and for every act. He AWJ proposed either a reward or Punishment. He AWj left for you to choose action but consequence is in His hand. Let me illustrate a simple example for you:

                                                                       You can either accept my point of view or deny it. If you accept my point of view with true heart, its consequence is that your spirituality will increase and you will get one step near to heaven, if you deny my point of view, its consequence is that you will become much more obstinate and unjust and one step closer to hell. Now, choice is yours but in either case you cannot escape the consequence and in both cases God knows your future but He AWJ has left you to decide what future you want to have. He knows both future but you can neither limit His knowledge nor escape the phase of choice. Even if you remain to stand silent in every decision, it will be taken as an action. For example:- If you stayed silent while a good person was being persecuted, you will be considered among oppressors and if you stayed silent in the support of Just person, you will be counted from his side. 

Edited by Sindbad05

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Fair enough, if that is what you believe. :) 

I have no wish to challenge your dream or the beauty inside you. 

May God guide and reward you for your loyalty. 

All the best 

*

 

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7 hours ago, Quisant said:

What do you mean by that? What authority does He grant us?

We have been given limited authority to accept or reject his guidance. :) This has been freed by Him for us and we call it free will.

7 hours ago, Quisant said:

Do you think God is  Omniscient about everything EXCEPT your actual choice?

:) To understand Omniscient, we need to have a debate on Knowledge & its nature. What you think "knowledge" is? What is its nature? What is its chemistry?

Omniscient means no exclusion & no exceptions. The One who is Omniscient, knows all.

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Scientists hasn't even established that consciousness ( i.e ' the self ') is a property/process/function of the brain, so they have no business in telling people that 'the self' is an illusion, and that therefore free will would be an illusion as well. The point is, thinking might be a process, but thoughts (and the thinker himself/herself) are not. I'd advice you guys in visiting the following channels on YouTube regarding this topic: Johanan Raatz

                                                                                                                                                                                                         InspiringPhilosophy.

These guys also have facebook accounts. I'd also advice you guys to hit up Trevor Commodore Martin (on Facebook) for these kind of questions. This is because I know the basics, but they know the specifics. So they'll be able to explain these topics better.

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Also, the correct solution to the ' Omniscience vs Free Will' paradox is, that God's Omniscience is tenseless. In other words, since God is timeless, his omniscience is also timeless. This means that he doesn't 'foreknow' anything. He simply observes past, present and future at an eternal 'now'. In other words, God's omniscience simply means that He is the axiom/ ground of knowledge itself. Nothing more than that. Like Imam Ali (a.s) said: ''He was knowing, before there was anything to be known''. This is because knowledge itself exists because it simply is grounded by God simply existing.

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20 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

We have been given limited authority to accept or reject his guidance. :) This has been freed by Him for us and we call it free will.

This you have invented.

"Free will" cannot be "partial". By definition one's "will" is either "free" or controlled. No half-position exists for this concept. 

if it's partially free, that means that the free part isn't subject to causation, which is impossible because everything is subject to causation (according to Shia scholars).
 

21 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

To understand Omniscient, we need to have a debate on Knowledge & its nature. What you think "knowledge" is? What is its nature? What is its chemistry?

Omniscient means no exclusion & no exceptions. The One who is Omniscient, knows all.

Is it possible to do other than what God knows you will do?

I will be away for a couple of days and look forward to reading your thoughts when I get back.

wslm.

*

 

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2 hours ago, Quisant said:

Fair enough, if that is what you believe. :) 

I have no wish to challenge your dream or the beauty inside you. 

May God guide and reward you for your loyalty. 

All the best 

*

 

Thank you, I appreciate that. Wishing a good life for you too in this world and hereafter. 

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17 minutes ago, Quisant said:

This you have invented.

Thanks for compliment :). Finally I have invented something. 

19 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Free will" cannot be "partial". By definition one's "will" is either "free" or controlled. No half-position exists for this concept. 

if it's partially free, that means that the free part isn't subject to causation, which is impossible because everything is subject to causation (according to Shia scholars).

There exists two things:

1. Will

2. Free Will

The first one is the capacity to "act decisively" on one's desires. We do not have this capacity because we are lacking "knowledge".

The second one is our capacity to choose. This is limited authority, for instance, we neither come in this world with our choice nor we depart from here with our choice. 

 

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1 hour ago, Engineer73 said:

The second one is our capacity to choose.

Free will is very easy to understand, brother.

I am woken by my alarm clock that rings at 6 am every morning. And I have the choice to get up and prepare to go to work OR to continue sleeping. The choice is entirely mine. This choice is what we call free will.

If free will does not exist, it would effectively mean that no single human being is responsible for his (or her) actions and the bank robber should not be punished for the heist.

Strangely, detractors of free will are just sitting put. If they truly believe it does not exist, they should launch a drive to close down the justice system and abolish the penal code.

After all, our justice system has always been based on the premise that human beings have free will.

Edited by baqar

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1 hour ago, baqar said:

am woken by my alarm clock that rings at 6 am every morning. And I have the choice to get up and prepare to go to work OR to continue sleeping. The choice is entirely mine. This choice is what we call free will.

This means you have the desire to wakeup at 6am next day, can you "act decisively" (this means "will")  to wakeup next day? No, because you dont know whether you will remain alive till 6am next day or not.. 

Now lets have a look, you have the desire but unability to act decisively, "if" you remain alive, or "if" your ability to hear the sound of alarm remained intact, you will hear that alarm, now you have the choice, should you wakeup or not.

Surah At-Takwir, Verse 29:

وَمَا تَشَاءُونَ إِلَّا أَن يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Now you have the choice, should you wake up or not.

That is what I said. 

I was not talking about the night before or the rest of the stuff you wrote. 

Read my post carefully.

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18 hours ago, Quisant said:

I very much agree with you on the mechanistic angle.

 

I am not sure I visualise the scenario, can you give an example of what you are thinking?

(apologies for the late reply)

wslm.

*

For example, if the gov't gives me only two options, neither that l like or care for, then although l am (mechanically) compelled to comply, l still do not like it  --or the gov't.

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On 3/21/2017 at 1:17 PM, Quisant said:

Of course he can deny that.

The concept of an all-knowing creator God who already knows the outcome of your entire lifespan before he even creates you throws that idea out the window.

When you posit a God whose knowledge of future events is necessarily correct, completely precludes human free will because what you do is already set in stone. . 

By arguing that we have free will you are actively arguing against God being omniscient.

1. God knows you will pick the blue one
2. If God knows you will pick the blue one, you will pick the blue one
3. You pick the blue one

Otherwise God's foreknowledge would be incorrect.
wslm

*

 

There is a flaw here.

There is a difference between knowing something, and compelling something.

Just because God knows what I am going to do, does not mean that I did not freely choose it.

Just as if I watch a recorded football match, and my friend is watching it later and I say I know what is going to happen, does not mean that I am compelling them to play in a certain way.  

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On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 1:35 AM, baqar said:

was not talking about the night before or the rest of the stuff you wrote. 

Read my post carefully.

:) I was just trying to differentiate between will & free will, so that I can have your valued comment on the subject of "will" too.

Nothing to worry brother, your post was quite clear to me.

Wassalam.

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