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HumanForLife

I'm having trouble understanding Free Will

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If a brain can tell us what its going to do before a human even knows its going to do it does that mean the conscious mind is controlled by the subconscious mind and if the subconscious can be fooled then who is actually in charge do we truly have free will or are we just like a puppet who think it has no strings does the conscious aware self just take credit for things the unconscious body already decided to do.

Can anyone link me an article that'll help me understand.

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11 hours ago, HumanForLife said:

If a brain can tell us what its going to do before a human even knows its going to do it does that mean the conscious mind is controlled by the subconscious mind and if the subconscious can be fooled then who is actually in charge do we truly have free will or are we jI ust like a puppet who think it has no strings does the conscious aware self just take credit for things the unconscious body already decided to do.

Can anyone link me an article that'll help me understand.

I did a post on the subject of free will some time ago... 

It is a difficult matter because so much depends on where we come from: we do not choose our feelings, desires, tastes, genes, environments, parents, family and relatives, tribe/clan, native language, upbringing, and so on and so forth; everything has already been decided for us.

We each have about as much knowledge of what we are about to think next as we do of what someone else would think. We are not the author of our own thoughts. That is, we don't pick our next thought. 

Can you, for instance, stop yourself thinking, can you choose which thoughts to summon for analysis or decide what to think?

Schopenhauer famously wrote:

Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills. 

He makes a distinction between freedom of acting (which he endorses) and freedom of willing (which he refutes). 
Our 'willing' is slave to desires over which we have little control; we cannot will what we will. Yes you are free to do whatever you desire. But you are not free to choose your desires.

In essence, man's desires are not predicated on careful calculation; rather, they are innate. The "heart of man" is autonomous and fickle. Our urges are genetically encoded, rooted in the subconscious and not subject to the whims (desires) of the conscious mind. 

Sigmund Freud wrote about the Id, ego, and super-ego, here is a link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego

Hope it helps,

wslm.  

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12 hours ago, HumanForLife said:

If a brain can tell us what its going to do before a human even knows its going to do it does that mean the conscious mind is controlled by the subconscious mind and if the subconscious can be fooled then who is actually in charge do we truly have free will or are we just like a puppet who think it has no strings does the conscious aware self just take credit for things the unconscious body already decided to do.

Can anyone link me an article that'll help me understand.

Once upon a time, A man asked Imam Ali ibn Hussain a.s, Am I free or dependent ?

Imam replied: "raise your one leg from the ground". 

The man raised its leg up.

Imam asked again: "Now raise your second leg as well".

The man asked: "How can I do that Imam, if I do that, I will fall".

Upon that Imam a.s replied: "This shows you that you are partially free and partially dependent, It is your choice to raise whatever leg you want, but if you take both legs, you will fall on the ground".

Certain things are predestined and certain are not. For example:- Our choices are not decided but consequence of every choice is already decided. Whatever you choose, has a consequence. 

 

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36 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Upon that Imam a.s replied: "This shows you that you are partially free and partially dependent, It is your choice to raise whatever leg you want, but if you take both legs, you will fall on the ground".

You are confusing 'free will' with 'freedom', which is a different subject altogether.

If you were encased in concrete, you would still have freedom of thought, of will. :)


 

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1 hour ago, Quisant said:

You are confusing 'free will' with 'freedom', which is a different subject altogether.

If you were encased in concrete, you would still have freedom of thought, of will. :)


 

So, what do you mean by "free will" ? Making a decision even under forced condition is "free will" even though there is no "freedom". So, this defines both. 

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2 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

So, what do you mean by "free will" ? 

If you cannot lift both legs your 'freedom of movement' is impaired, not your freedom of thought, of will.

Is what I meant.

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17 minutes ago, Quisant said:

If you cannot lift both legs your 'freedom of movement' is impaired, not your freedom of thought, of will.

Is what I meant.

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You are allowed to think to stand without legs in your mind, but "you cannot stand without feet on ground in this world where gravity is 9.8" And Imam said that you are partly free and partly dependent. You are free to think but it is not necessary that everything you think will happen. :)

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1 hour ago, Quisant said:

If you cannot lift both legs your 'freedom of movement' is impaired, not your freedom of thought, of will.

Is what I meant.

Nicely stated :) 

May I know what is intention & what is free will? And is there any relation between these two?

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21 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

May I know what is intention & what is free will? And is there any relation between these two?

Hello Engineer,  I trust you are keeping well.

I hope the following answers your question...because I am going out for the evening soon.

 

Free will is the unrestricted ability to choose among two or more logically available choice alternatives in a decision event.
(The "two or more" isn't in there as an argument dodge; if there is only one choice available, it is coerced. If there are no choices logically available, there is no decision event.)

Intention is a determination to act in a certain way  (after the choice is made)

From the Upanishads:
 As is your desire, so is your intention. 
As is your intention, so is your will. 
As is your will, so is your deed. 
As is your deed, so is your destiny.

All the best :)

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4 minutes ago, Quisant said:

From the Upanishads:
 As is your desire, so is your intention. 
As is your intention, so is your will. 
As is your will, so is your deed. 
As is your deed, so is your destiny.

All the best :)

:) is this the difference between will & free will?

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10 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

:) is this the difference between will & free will?

In my opinion, yes.

Will is a strong desire or determination to do something, from the latin velle, volere: to wish, to want.

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Just now, Quisant said:

In my opinion, yes.

Will is a strong desire or determination to do something, from the latin velle, volere: to wish, to want.

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I think, the debate is about definition of free will and I was watching closely to debate about it's actual nature. haha, very funny of me. 

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I am moving a step ahead Quisant.

Intention has three factors influencing it which are the will, desire and belief. A Being could not act unless it Willed to Act; and it would not Will to Act, unless it Desired to Act; and it would not Desire to Act unless it obtained some Satisfaction thereby. What it is satisfied by will depend on its own nature. It’s own nature is determined by its consciousness.

Therefore the order of causation in mental creation is Consciousness >> Beingness >> Desire >> Will >> Action. The action is firstly mental action that leads to physical action secondly. I think therefore I am, therefore I desire, therefore I will conceive and carry out my plan with action to get what I desire and find satisfaction doing so.

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On 3/18/2017 at 5:16 PM, HumanForLife said:

If a brain can tell us what its going to do before a human even knows its going to do it does that mean the conscious mind is controlled by the subconscious mind and if the subconscious can be fooled then who is actually in charge do we truly have free will or are we just like a puppet who think it has no strings does the conscious aware self just take credit for things the unconscious body already decided to do.

Can anyone link me an article that'll help me understand.

How could the brain tell us what its going to do before a human (which in part includes the brain) even knows its going to do it?

To rephrase, how could a brain tell itself what it is going to do, before the brain itself even knows its going to do it?

The question doesnt make sense.

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5 hours ago, iCambrian said:

How could the brain tell us what its going to do before a human (which in part includes the brain) even knows its going to do it?

To rephrase, how could a brain tell itself what it is going to do, before the brain itself even knows its going to do it?

The question doesnt make sense.

A computer can read the brains subconscious signals.

Edit: there was an experiment I vaguely remember reading about, A device was attached to a human subjects head and it was reading his subconscious mind, the subject was told to press a button before it lit up (he did not know it was reading his subconscious signals), but nor matter how many times he tried he couldn't hit it before it lit up. again from what I can remember the subject said it always lit up a split second before he made the conscious decision to press it.

Edited by HumanForLife

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3 hours ago, HumanForLife said:

A computer can read the brains subconscious signals.

Edit: there was an experiment I vaguely remember reading about, A device was attached to a human subjects head and it was reading his subconscious mind, the subject was told to press a button before it lit up (he did not know it was reading his subconscious signals), but no matter how many times he tried he couldn't hit it before it lit up. again from what I can remember the subject said it always lit up a split second before he made the conscious decision to press it.

Can you post the research itself? Otherwise, I wouldnt know what youre referring to.

 

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19 hours ago, Quisant said:

Free will is the unrestricted ability to choose among two or more logically available choice alternatives in a decision event.
(The "two or more" isn't in there as an argument dodge; if there is only one choice available, it is coerced. If there are no choices logically available, there is no decision event.)

Intention is a determination to act in a certain way  (after the choice is made)

Salam,

This post reminds me of why l personally get disgusted with some classical debate points. They are so mechanistic. Sometimes, like pick-your-favorite-candy formats.

At the "coerced" portion is a good place to posit: where is the emotional component? When you are physically coerced and not emotionally coincident, then does not "free will" still exist?

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4 hours ago, HumanForLife said:

A computer can read the brains subconscious signals.

Edit: there was an experiment I vaguely remember reading about, A device was attached to a human subjects head and it was reading his subconscious mind, the subject was told to press a button before it lit up (he did not know it was reading his subconscious signals), but nor matter how many times he tried he couldn't hit it before it lit up. again from what I can remember the subject said it always lit up a split second before he made the conscious decision to press it.

Let's break the problem into parts. 

You mean to say that when we press the button, the machine tells before we press it, so, it tells us our determination not what our thoughts right ? It could be measuring all the body trends for an action and tells us that now it will hit the button, such as when we lie and there is a "lie detector" attached to it, measures our heart rate, and blood circulation and so on so forth. So, it does not mean that the machine which you are speaking about really reads the mind, it is actually measuring the body traits that causes certain actions. Such, as the time frame in which we really decide to do action, is the time frame for that machine to calculate whether we are doing that action or not. And since it is your decision to read and discuss about this decision, how could your brain be responsible for participating in this discussion before you know it. Albeit, before going to read this article, you attack that machine and make in your mind, the decision and click the mouse to read posts just tell you what you really intended is seeming to be launched by your readings. 

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4 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Let's break the problem into parts. 

You mean to say that when we press the button, the machine tells before we press it, so, it tells us our determination not what our thoughts right ? It could be measuring all the body trends for an action and tells us that now it will hit the button, such as when we lie and there is a "lie detector" attached to it, measures our heart rate, and blood circulation and so on so forth. So, it does not mean that the machine which you are speaking about really reads the mind, it is actually measuring the body traits that causes certain actions. Such, as the time frame in which we really decide to do action, is the time frame for that machine to calculate whether we are doing that action or not. And since it is your decision to read and discuss about this decision, how could your brain be responsible for participating in this discussion before you know it. Albeit, before going to read this article, you attack that machine and make in your mind, the decision and click the mouse to read posts just tell you what you really intended is seeming to be launched by your readings. 

the computer reads the subconscious, it then determine when it will be a conscious decision, hence its lighting up the button a spit second before the subjects arms moves, in other words it was reading the subconscious mind and telling the subject what hes going to do before the subject knows he was going to do it. if your subconscious knows what your going to do before you do it, is it really your decision or do you think its your decision.

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1 hour ago, HumanForLife said:

the computer reads the subconscious, it then determine when it will be a conscious decision, hence its lighting up the button a spit second before the subjects arms moves, in other words it was reading the subconscious mind and telling the subject what hes going to do before the subject knows he was going to do it. if your subconscious knows what your going to do before you do it, is it really your decision or do you think its your decision.

You yourself said that it reads the mind, split second before the person moves his arm, so it means that it was only analyzing the body properties which were signaling that the person has decided to move his or her arm and the light signals by lighting up. Now, my question that why are you saying that light signaled before the person knows ? Why not you are saying that light signals when the person has made up his mind but signals before his determination is followed by his act because there is a small time gap between thinking and following by action. 

Edited by Sindbad05

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