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Difference between Sahabi and Ahl albayt?

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10 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Moreover, there is a report from prophet saw on birth as well as on death of Zayd bin Ali and also on his merits. So include him as well and make it 15 or 16. On other hand there are not any prophecies specifically mentioning rest of the Imams (except first 5 and Imam mahdi) yet they are considered as infallible and divinely appointed. Makes no sense. And it was Zayd bin Ali who resembles to Imam Ali more than anyone else after him, says Imam Ali Reza.

The prophet saww has mentioned the names of 12 imams in his many narrations given in this thread. 

Edited by skyweb1987

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11 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Such reports are terribly weak. Otherwise shiites of that time would not have differed so much on who is the next Imam.

In short, brother you are following theories having no solid proofs but assumptions in contrast to practical realities i.e system of election or consultation which is there since the end of prophethood.

The sunni reports are weak because those destroy their man made fallible system and shatter its foundation. But these narrations well exist in both shia and sunni souirces and only a blind can keep his eyes close from the truth.

Thus it is concluded that follow the man made fallible system of caliphate means following own conjectures without any base of it inside the quran.

The verse of consultation does not mention that the people can choose the prophet or caliph or imam after the prophet saw. There is no basis for selection for the prophet, caliph or imam by the people (with consultation) instead of the Allash swt for thy great religion Islam. The following verse denies such man made fallible caliphate principle:

He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently. (42:13)

Thus Allah swt chooses his representatives including prophets, imams, caliphs or leaders / successors after the prophet saww for the guidance of the ummah.

Can you please quote the examples of the prophets by name chosen by the people( with consultation) from quran?

Can you please mention the examples of the caliphs by name chosen by the people ( with consultation) from quran?

Can you please mention the examples of the imams  by name chosen by the people ( with consultation) from quran?

Edited by skyweb1987

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11 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Because now there will be no any prophet (a divienly appointed person with revelations and miracles).

This is obedience of end of prophethood principle of Allah, not any violation.

The prophet is the last of the prophets yes the verse of quran mentions it but there is no verse in the quran that the prophet saww is the last imam, but he said there will be 12 caliphs/ imams after him.

The people cannot chose caliph, the quran mentions examples of Adam and David who were  chosen caliphs by Allah  swt.

The people cannot choose caliphs but Allah swt alone. The violation by sunnis is well proven.

Edited by skyweb1987

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On 9/6/2017 at 6:35 PM, skyweb1987 said:

What you said is part of this thread the following mentions it:

"Hadith kisa includes only 4 members of ahlebayt not 13. So no one else has this purified status except the prophet and those 4 members of his progeny."

So your statements are contradictory in sense. Are not these?

No not at all. I think you are mixning words purified and infallible. When you perform ablution properly you became purified to offer salah. But this do not make you infallible for your entire life.

This is what I said and it was about infallibility. And in the same post I asked how it proves infallibility.

On 9/6/2017 at 10:13 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:
On 9/4/2017 at 10:46 PM, skyweb1987 said:

Thanks at least we both agree that 4 persons from Ahl albayat were under the kissa / cloak and they are infallible

I did not say it means they are infallibles. Rather I said this on behalf of shias that if hadith kisa is the criteria for infallibility then only 4 can be considered infallibles not 12 or 13. Considering others is just a wishful thinking.

Can you quote a narration from ahlebayt showing hadith kisa (verse 33:33) proves infalliblity for 4 or 13?

 

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On 9/6/2017 at 6:54 PM, skyweb1987 said:
On 9/6/2017 at 10:13 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

Can you quote a narration from ahlebayt showing hadith kisa (verse 33:33) proves infalliblity for 4 or 13?

First the verse of purification mentions that there  were 4 members of Ahl albayat present under the cloak with the prophet saww declared purified infallible wit the verse of purification 33:33. Do you accept or reject it ?

There are many narrations from the prophet mentioning the names of those Ahl alabayt (including 12 imams). thus mentioning the 13 infallible including his daughter , Imam Ali and 11 Imams from his progeny.

This is what I am asking how can be it termed as infalliblity? Yes only 4 members were present. 

So you are assuming on basis of those other narrations. While in reality only 4 were intended.

 

On 9/6/2017 at 6:54 PM, skyweb1987 said:

Moreover, the following narration quote the words from Imams from Ahl albaayt quoting the verse of purification to confirm they are covered under this verse:

1. Imam al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali (as)

al-Hakim (in al-Mustadrak) in connection with the attainments of Imam al-Hasan, and al-Haythami (in connection with the excellence of the Holy Family) have narrated that Imam al-Hasan (as) addressed the people after the martyrdom of his father Imam ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as) and said during his speech:

O People! Whoever knows me, knows me and whoever doesn't know me should know that I am al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali; I am the son of the Holy Prophet and of his executor (Wasi). I am the son him who invited people to Allah and warned them of the torture of His Hell-fire. I am the son of the luminous Lamp. I belong to the family upon whom Gabriel used to descend and from there ascend to heavens. I belong to the family from whom Allah has ward off all filth and made them pure.

Sunni references:

    • al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p172

    • Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p172

2- Imam Ali bin Hussain AS:

While commenting on the verse 33:33, al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir and al-Suyuti have stated in their exegesis:

‘Ali Ibn Husayn said to a Syrian: "Have you read this verse in Surah al-Ahzab, O people of the House! Allah intends to keep you pure from blemish and to purify you with a thorough purification (Qur’an 33:33)?"

The Syrian said: "Does this verse pertain to you?”The Imam replied: "Yes, it pertains to us."

Sunni references:

        • Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v22, p7

        • Tafsir Ibn Kathir, v3, p486

        • Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh al-Suyuti, v5, p199

Do you not believe the words of the prophet saww that last ie 12 Imam is from us ie ahl alabayt?

Let me clarify. As per hadith kisa only 4 were covered no dispute on that. Question is what does it mean? if infallibilty then how? Need a narration explaining the meaning of verse, not just quoting the verse itself.

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On 9/6/2017 at 8:03 PM, skyweb1987 said:

1-      You are just exaggerating the facts by trying to put your foul words in my mouth. I certainly throw these words on the wall

2-      As far as cursing is concerned Allah swt sends curse to whom who deserve it. Look at the following verses:

 Curse on Iblis.

And surely on you is curse until the Day of Judgment.’                                       
(Surah Hijr, 15:35)

‘And surely My curse is on you until the Day of Judgment.’                              
 (Surah Suad, 38:78)

 Curse on disbelievers;

 ‘Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them. And Allah has cursed them and they shall have a lasting punishment.’

(Surah Tauba, 9:68)

 Those who turned to disbelief after believing

‘How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their believing and (after) they had borne witness that the Apostle was true and clear arguments had come to them; and Allah does not guide the unjust people. (As for) these, their reward is that upon them is the curse of Allah and the angels and of men, all together.’

(Surah Ale Imran, 3:86-87)

http://lanatinislam.blogspot.com/2012/09/curse-in-holy-quran.html

3- The biggest innovation of early caliphs is the man made caliphate that does not exist in quran. They did not choose the prophet so that cannot chose his successor or imam or caliph after him.

4- The common sense does not work when the matter has been decided the verses of quran and the hadith of the prophet saw. The narrations for the verse 5:55 indicates that it was revealed for imam Ali when he gave zakat whole bowing down in the prayer and he is reffered as wali after the prophet in it.. Also the quran is not a book like scène book or subject book mentioning sequential order toipcs. The verse and even the parts of the verses address different circumstances.

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/certainly-your-master

1. Its a fact.

2. Yes. Its only Allah who sends curse on those who really deserve. As only He has the true knowledge of everything.

3. Imam Ali also accepted this man made caliphate and also fought for it. But not for so called divine Imamah. Isnt it strange.

4. Where is the name of Imam Ali in 5:55? You can not prove this without using some weak reports. In short dispute is everywhere.

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On 9/6/2017 at 8:15 PM, skyweb1987 said:

If there are so many examples then please quote the name of one single prophet saw that was chosen by the people with the said verse of quran.

Please quote a name of caliph chosen the people for the guidance of ummah instead of Allah swt  with the verse of quran mentioning him.

Please quote a name of single Imam chosen the people for the guidance of ummah instead of Allah swt  with the verse of quran mentioning him

The verse of Ulil Amr is not a relevant verse as this does not say that people can choose, the prophet, neither it mentions that the people can choose the caliphs nor it mentions the people can select and imam for the guidance of ummah,

Ulil amr do not refer to prophets in 4:59. And I never said there are examples on people chosen prophet etc. You seem confused.

Just take the example of bani israil. There were many caliphs chosen by they themselves after Prophet Sulaiman (as) when the kingdom became devided after his death. Same happen to final ummah we had banu ummayah and banu abbas with so many caliphs. Good or bad is another issue. For prophetic narrations refer Kitab ul Imarah in sahih muslim.

If you are interested in verse of Quran then keep in mind that even there isnt any single verse mentioning non prophet being an Imam except some evil ones. Imam in Quran is either a book or a prophet or some evil persons. And ahlebayt is neither a book, nor prophets and nor evil persons.

But 4:59 do mentions that absolute obedience is only for Allah and for His prophet. And you can differ with the ulil amr. Moreover except Imam Ali and Imam Hassan no other Imam got power to rule then how can they be termed as ulil amr. Remember the epic words of Zayd bin ALi that Imam is not the one who sits at home and do not fight with sword for benefit of public.

 

 

On 9/6/2017 at 8:18 PM, skyweb1987 said:

The persons mentioned by you are the leaders of small group of people and they are not the caliph /successor of the holy prophet saw.  Also the religion is not based on the examples of this word.

Do you take Donald Trump as your leader after the prophet saw as his successor for following your religion if living in america?

Imam Ali (as) applied the same verse 4:59 to his governors. See his letter # 53. He did not make it limited to him only.

Is donald trump a muslim and a follower of prophet? Is america a muslim state? This shows your frustration.

Ok tell me who is the true successor today and what's the job of successor?

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On 9/6/2017 at 10:00 PM, skyweb1987 said:

The narrations from both sunni and shia sources have been mentioned the link is given in last post:

The names are very clear that Imam Mahdi is 12 th imam and all these 11 are from the progeny of Imam Ali AS. They are all from Ahl albayat of the prophet saww.

As Slaman Farsi RA has no blood relation with the prophet saww. He does not have stated purified status and this is the reason its name is not included in narrations mentioning 12 imams. You are misunderstood.

The Messenger (S) of Allah said: "Salman is from us Ahlul-Bayt."

which means he is our agent and is attached to us Ahlul-Bayt. In fact, Salman was an agent and a trustee for Ahlul-Bayt to the end of his life-time. His affinity to Ahlul-Bayt was to the extent that he was attached to them. An analogy would be a friend who would visit a family a lot, such that one would consider him attached to the family, although the blood relation is the only thing missing. Salman (ra) was one of the best companions of the Messenger of Allah. It is narrated that:

The Messenger of God said: "Certainly Allah commanded me to love four persons and informed me that He loves them.”The companions asked the Prophet: "O’ Messenger of God, who are those four persons?”The Prophet (S) replied: "‘Ali is from them (repeating that three times), Abu Dharr, Salman al-Farsi, and Miqdad."

Sunni References:

• Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p52, Tradition #149

• al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p130

• Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p356

• Fadha’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p648, Tradition #1103

• Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu’aym, v1, p172

Explore the life of every Imam and the condition of their followers you will find that no body had the knowledge about names of the 12 Imams. Compare the narrations you shared with reality. Even their close relatives like Zayd bin Ali had no knowledge.

Islam is the religion based on realities not theories or myths.

Here is one such passage from history.

Quote

Imam Sadiq (a.s) did not testate any one of his two sons, Isma'il and 'Abdullah, to be his vicegerent, but the situation and conditions at that time was so that he could not introduce his succession unequivocally. For he (the successor) might be murdered by ''Abbasid governor immediately. This matter made many Shias firstly consider 'Isma'il then 'Abdullah as the truth 'Imam after 'Imam Sadiq because they thought that the older son must be 'Imam. However, this imagination proved and shown as a false one in the way that 'Isma'il passed away before his father and 'Imam Sadiq himself insisted on his death in order for the adherents would not go astray. Also 'Abdullah (who was the older than Kazim) could not answer the religious questions of 'Imam Sadiq's followers. On the other hand, 'Abdullah died a few months before his father. Therefore, the Imamate of Kazim proved and stabilized.

Sources:
1. Mufid, al-Irshad, p.285.
2. Ibn Babewayh, Kamal al-Din, p.69.
3. Majlesi, behar al-'Anwar, vol.37, pp. 9-10.

Where were the narrations with names of 12 Imams at that time.

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On 9/6/2017 at 10:01 PM, skyweb1987 said:
On 9/6/2017 at 11:22 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

Moreover, there is a report from prophet saw on birth as well as on death of Zayd bin Ali and also on his merits. So include him as well and make it 15 or 16. On other hand there are not any prophecies specifically mentioning rest of the Imams (except first 5 and Imam mahdi) yet they are considered as infallible and divinely appointed. Makes no sense. And it was Zayd bin Ali who resembles to Imam Ali more than anyone else after him, says Imam Ali Reza.

The prophet saww has mentioned the names of 12 imams in his many narrations given in this thread. 

If such narrations were true then atleast Jabir bin Samura would have mentioned that. You are attributing to our prophet myths which never ever got any realization in reality.

There are more narrations on Zayd bin Ali from prophet than anyother Imam from 4th to 11th. On his birth, on his martyrdom, on his merits, on his companions. If this is the criteria then he is more deserving to be called the Imam.

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On 9/6/2017 at 10:22 PM, skyweb1987 said:

The sunni reports are weak because those destroy their man made fallible system and shatter its foundation. But these narrations well exist in both shia and sunni souirces and only a blind can keep his eyes close from the truth.

Thus it is concluded that follow the man made fallible system of caliphate means following own conjectures without any base of it inside the quran.

Today even Iran has realized that we can not survive without this fallible man made system of elections, hence introduced wilayat faqih concept. This is because its the practical system based on human nature. Whereas the so called divine system of Imamah is missing since thousands of years giving no any benfit to his followers.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship."

It has been narrated (through a different chain of tmnamitters) on the authority of Umm Salama (wife of the Holy Prophet) that he said:

Amirs will be appointed over you, and you will find them doing good as well as bad deeds. One who hates their bad deeds is absolved from blame. One who disapproves of their bad deeds is (also) safe (so far as Divine wrath is concerned). But one who approves of their bad deeds and imitates them (is doomed). People asked: Messenger of Allah, shouldn't we fight against them? He replied: No, as long as they say their prayer. (" Hating and disapproving" refers to liking and disliking from the heart.) Sahih Muslim 1854 b
 

 

On 9/6/2017 at 10:27 PM, skyweb1987 said:

The prophet is the last of the prophets yes the verse of quran mentions it but there is no verse in the quran that the prophet saww is the last imam, but he said there will be 12 caliphs/ imams after him.

The people cannot chose caliph, the quran mentions examples of Adam and David who were  chosen caliphs by Allah  swt.

The people cannot choose caliphs but Allah swt alone. The violation by sunnis is well proven.

Did he say only 12? DId he say all will be good and pious? Did he say obey them all?

Likewise a non-prophet can not be an Imam. Ibrahim (as), Ishaq (as) and Yaqub (as) all are called as Imam in Quran and all of them were prophets. There is no any example in Quran for non prophet being an Imam. Dont be biased.

 

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9 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

No not at all. I think you are mixning words purified and infallible. When you perform ablution properly you became purified to offer salah. But this do not make you infallible for your entire life.

This is what I said and it was about infallibility. And in the same post I asked how it proves infallibility.

Making ablution can only give a level of purity to a muslim to say his prayer only 

The level of purification is what Allah swt has mentioned that All the blemishes (Al-rijs) are kept away from Ahl abayt as. and this is the intend by Allah swt .The prophet saww himself was present under the cloak and all blemishes are kept away from him and his Ahl albaayt and no none else can attain this purified status.

In the light of the sunni and shia sources the narrations of the prophet saww  Ahl albayt are 13 in nos, This is true Shia belief (instead of 4 only under the cloak). 

The Purified ones means those who are protected by Allah swt to keep away all blemishes (Al-rijs) from them.  

... Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying. (33:33)

To whom Alah swt has protected by keeping away the Al-rijs ie all blemishes are infallible ie Masum.

The same meaning can be found in the words of the prophet saaw as given in Bukhari

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدَانُ، أَخْبَرَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ، أَخْبَرَنَا يُونُسُ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي أَبُو سَلَمَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ مَا اسْتُخْلِفَ خَلِيفَةٌ إِلاَّ لَهُ بِطَانَتَانِ بِطَانَةٌ تَأْمُرُهُ بِالْخَيْرِ وَتَحُضُّهُ عَلَيْهِ، وَبِطَانَةٌ تَأْمُرُهُ بِالشَّرِّ وَتَحُضُّهُ عَلَيْهِ، وَالْمَعْصُومُ مَنْ عَصَمَ اللَّهُ ‏"‏‏.‏

That the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "No Caliph is appointed but has two groups of advisors: One group advises him to do good and urges him to adopt it, and the other group advises him to do bad and urges him to adopt it; and the protected (Masum)  is the one whom Allah protects."

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/82/17

The above hadith also provide the clear evidence that protected one is Masum ie infallible. This is another confirmation that he Ahl albayt are the protected by Allah swt from blemishes  that is kept away from them and they are Infallible ie Masum.

The following hadith from Shia sources also provide this evidence:

- Ali Ibn al-Husain (as) said: "There is no Imam amongst us (family of Muhammad (PBUH&HF)) except that he is Ma'sum. The protection (Isma) is not something apparent that people could recognize him by it, and thus he should be assigned (by the previous Imam)." He (as) was asked: "O Son of the Messenger of Allah! What is the meaning of Ma'sum?" He (as) replied: "Ma'sum is the clinger to the Rope of Allah. And the Rope of Allah is Quran. The two shall never separate until the Day of Rising. The Imam guides to the Quran, and the Quran guides to the Imam, and this is the saying of Allah, the Mighty and the Majestic: 'Verily this Quran guides to whom is most right (17:9).'"

- Ma'ani al-Akhbar, p132, Hadith #1

Husham Ibn al-Hakam narrated:

I asked Imam al-Sadiq (as) about the meaning of Ma'sum. He (as) replied: "The protected (Ma'sum) is the one who is immune by Allah from all that is forbidden by Allah. Verily Allah, the Glorious, said, '... And whoever seeks protection (Ya'tasim) from Allah, he will be certainly guided to a Straight Way (3:101)."

- Ma'ani al-Akhbar, p132, Hadith #2

Thus Purified ones means Masum ie infallible for us

Edited by skyweb1987

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9 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

3. Imam Ali also accepted this man made caliphate and also fought for it. But not for so called divine Imamah. Isnt it strange.

This is another false and baseless claim without any evidence 

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9 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

4. Where is the name of Imam Ali in 5:55? You can not prove this without using some weak reports. In short dispute is everywhere.

Why the name of Imam Ali should be mentioned? Are the hadiths of the prophet not sufficient to clarify the verses of Quran? 

This is not the single hadith regarding this verse 5:55 mentioning that the person gave zakat was Imam Ali AS the Wali of believers. There are many traditions in this concern: The link is given below:

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/verse-wilayah/conclusion-2.html

It is clear that the fact that the verse under discussion was revealed in favour of Ali bin Abi Talib [as] is Mutawati (successive).

Edited by skyweb1987

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19 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

Why the name of Imam Ali should be mentioned? Are the hadiths of the prophet not sufficient to clarify the verses of Quran? 

This is not the single hadith regarding this verse 5:55 mentioning that the person gave zakat was Imam Ali AS the Wali of believers. There are many traditions in this concern: The link is given below:

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/verse-wilayah/conclusion-2.html

It is clear that the fact that the verse under discussion was revealed in favour of Ali bin Abi Talib [as] is Mutawati (successive).

Those who don't want to believe let them be! May be they will only believe when the truth will be manifested to them in the HereAfter.

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10 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Those who don't want to believe let them be! May be they will only believe when the truth will be manifested to them in the HereAfter.

I do not want any one to believe or not but i am trying to present my own view in response.

Thanks for mentioning 

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4 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

If you are interested in verse of Quran then keep in mind that even there isnt any single verse mentioning non prophet being an Imam except some evil ones. Imam in Quran is either a book or a prophet or some evil persons. And ahlebayt is neither a book, nor prophets and nor evil persons.

First it provides the sufficient evidence that there is no single verse in quran that the people can choose imam after the prophet saww for their guidance.

Also I am not connived with your statement that no single verse mentions that non prophets Imams are only evil ones: It is evidence that the imams who were not chosen by Allah for the guidance of the people are evil imams. I provide the following two verses:

The imams  who leads the people towards Hell. Allah declares in Surah Qasas, verse 41, 
'And We made them Imams who call to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall not be assisted.'

It means that the end of the one who accepts such an Imam will be in Hell. They were Firon and his companions and these were not chosen by Allah for the guidance of the people but the people followed them at their own wishes.

The imams who were also the prophets are mentioned in the following: The second group of Imams guides the people by Allah's command. Surah Sajdah, verse 24 points out 'And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.'

 Qur’an tells that some prophets, with the order of Allah, assigned Imams (who were not prophets). Let me give you some verses of Qur’an:

Didn’t you turn your vision to the chiefs of the children of Israel after Moses? They said to a Prophet (that was) among them: "Appoint for us a king that we may fight in the cause of Allah.”(Qur’an 2:246)

Anyone who has been specifically assigned by Allah as king is an Imam. A prophet can also be Imam/king but not all the prophets were Imam. If one becomes a divinely appointed king/Imam, it does not necessarily mean that he will physically govern. The above verse of Qur’an is about Talut (as) Below is another verse of Qur’an which provides more details:

Their Prophet(1) said to them: "Allah has appointed Talut (Saul) as king(2) over you.”They say: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to have authority and he has not been given wealth enough?(3)”He (i.e., their Prophet) said: "Allah has chosen him(4) above you and has gifted him abundantly with knowledge(5) and bodily prowess; Allah grants His authority to whom He pleases.(6)Allah cares for all and He knows all things.”(Qur’an 2:247)

The first part of the above verse proves that the community had a prophet and Talut was among the people of that community, so that their Prophet was the prophet of Talut also. Thus Talut was not a prophet.

Thanks for leading me to the conclusion that Imams from Ahl albayt are only righteous imams chosen by Allah and named by the prophet saw in his narrations.

Edited by skyweb1987

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4 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Is donald trump a muslim and a follower of prophet? Is america a muslim state? This shows your frustration.

Ok tell me who is the true successor today and what's the job of successor?

Thanks for leading me that ruler of country cannot be ulil amr and a fallible Muslim cannot be ulil amr as the prophet himself is infallible. 

The true successor of the prophet saww at the present is Imam Al Mahdi AS as per the narrations of the prophet saww. and he is an infallible from the pure progeny of the prophet saaw. 

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4 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Islam is the religion based on realities not theories or myths.

islam is only based on the facts described in the verses of quran and the hadith of the prophet saww and its  pure progeny and we do not follow sinners or fallible

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4 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Today even Iran has realized that we can not survive without this fallible man made system of elections, hence introduced wilayat faqih concept. This is because its the practical system based on human nature. Whereas the so called divine system of Imamah is missing since thousands of years giving no any benfit to his followers.

I do not follow the system of Iran or any other country for my religion the prophet saww has mentioned Islam 1400 years ago based on quran and following through his purified Ahl albayat  alone

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4 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Did he say only 12? DId he say all will be good and pious? Did he say obey them all?

 There is no any example in Quran for non prophet being an Imam. Dont be biased.

 

There is plethora of sunni and shia hadith mentioning the number of caliphs / imams as 12. Their names have been mentioned in many narrations. They are from pure progeny of the prophet saww and they are to be obeyed according to the hadith thaqlayn.

your statement about  non prophets are not imams  has already been proven incorrect.

Wsalam

Edited by skyweb1987

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On 9/6/2017 at 10:22 PM, skyweb1987 said:

Thus it is concluded that follow the man made fallible system of caliphate means following own conjectures without any base of it inside the quran.

The verse of consultation does not mention that the people can choose the prophet or caliph or imam after the prophet saw. There is no basis for selection for the prophet, caliph or imam by the people (with consultation) instead of the Allash swt for thy great religion Islam. The following verse denies such man made fallible caliphate principle:

He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently. (42:13)

Thus Allah swt chooses his representatives including prophets, imams, caliphs or leaders / successors after the prophet saww for the guidance of the ummah.

Can you please quote the examples of the prophets by name chosen by the people( with consultation) from quran?

Can you please mention the examples of the caliphs by name chosen by the people ( with

consultation) from quran?

Can you please mention the examples of the imams  by name chosen by the people ( with consultation) from quran?

On 9/6/2017 at 11:22 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

In short, brother you are following theories having no solid proofs but assumptions in contrast to practical realities i.e system of election or consultation which is there since the end of prophethood.

 

:The details about choosing the prophets, caliphs or imams and leaders with consultation can be seen below:

Can People Choose the Prophet or Caliph or Successor of the prophet with Shura or Consultation, instead of authority / command by Allah?

The following questions serve as a food for thought for mindful people.

1- Hz Adam as was chosen by Allah swt as caliph / successor on the earth.  Did Allah swt make any consultation  for his selection ?

2- Allah swt Chosen Ibrahim as as Imam / leader of the people, Did Allah swt consult any prophet or any person for his selection ?

3-  Hz Adam, Nuh,  Ibrahim and the progeny of Imran were chosen above the worlds. Did Allah swt make any consultation with any prophet or person for this selection?

4- The prophet Nuh and Ibrahim were  sent to his nation. Did the people choose them as prophet by Shura or consultation?

5- Allah swt gave the progeny of ibrahim, the book and the wisdom. Did Allah swt make any consultation or Shura with any one for this award to his progeny?

6- Allah swt chosed Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot—each graced over all the nations. Did Allah swt make any consultation for this grace?

7-Allah swt made Isac and yaqub leaders / imams, whom Allah consulted for this selection of leaders / imams?

8- Allah swt made Dawood  a caliph ie his successor as his chosen representative on the earth. Did Allah swt conduct any consultation for this selection?

9- Allah swt made Haroon as and aider and adviser of hz Musa as. Did Allah swt make any consultation with the Children of israel for such selection? Or Musa made any shura for his selection?

10- Musa asked his adviser and aider made by Allah swt ie Harun to take his place as his caliph / successor  in his absence, when he left for Mountain Tur. Did he make any shura for Haroon selection? However the people themselves chose and took a calf in Musa's absence then they were condemned by Allah swt for this worst action.

11- Allah swt made 12 leaders among the children of israel. Did Allah swt make any consultation for the selection of them?

12- Allah swt chosen Talut a leader over the children of Israel because of his knowledge and physical strength. Did Allah swt  make consultation for his selection?

13- Allah swt sent the prophet Muhammad saww as mercy to the mankind. Did he make any consultation for his selection?

14- Allah swt made the prophet Muhammad saww as his messenger and the last of the prophets. Did Allah make any consultation for this selection?

15- And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). 28:68.

This verse in the light of above verses clearly indicates that the selection of representative (prophet / leader / imam/ successor) is the authority of Allah alone. and no one has any right for it. It does not involve any  consultation for  their selection.

16- The way of Allah does  not change:

[This is] the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change. (33:62)

The people do not have any right for selection of prophet or his representative then certainly they cannot choose any one after the prophet as his caliph ./ successor at their own (by any consultation) without permission by Allah.

Thus what happened after the prophet Muhammad saww for the selection of the Calif Abubakr is considered an innovation or bidda in the religion in violation to the established principles of the quran.

Regards

Edited by skyweb1987
correction

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On ‎4‎-‎9‎-‎2017 at 9:49 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

There is a difference between words ahl and aal. A person's aal includes his family, friends and followers as well.

It depends on the context. How is it applied in the salawat?

 

 

On ‎4‎-‎9‎-‎2017 at 9:49 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

All descendants of ahlebayt also do not receive sadaqah. Are all of them also purified and thus infallible?

According to sunnism they are purified. Not infallible. They however have a status distinct and higher than Sahaba.

The same rule counted for Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. in the first place and extended to the members of his family a.s.

Edited by Faruk

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in shia traditions, we can find statement like so:

"O son of Allah’s Messenger, .............".

[Shakir 3:61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons......

 

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