Jump to content
skyweb1987

Difference between Sahabi and Ahl albayt?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

^So what were they collectively called? 

What was the term that was used to describe the extended family that is the uncles and cousins of the prophet

Although the question has noting to do with the discussion on the title of the thread ie the differences between the companion and the Ahl albayat of the prophet saww who are kept pure by Allah swt as mentioned in the verse of purification, .

Yet the simple term for describing the uncles and cousins of the prophet saww is the relatives of the prophet saww and it has no  connection with the the term Ahl albaayt as used in verse of purification keeping in view the hadiths of the prophet saww.

wasalam

 

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 But bro that's what I'm asking what was the simple term that defined the uncles and cousins from the prophet

 

We both agree that they have nothing to do with the  verse of purification

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 But bro that's what I'm asking what was the simple term that defined the uncles and cousins from the prophet.

I think it is very relevant because a lot of the uncles and cousins were companions but at the same time or the family of the Prophet too whether or not they are purified that is a different matter

 

We both agree that they have nothing to do with the  verse of purification

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

 But bro that's what I'm asking what was the simple term that defined the uncles and cousins from the prophet

We both agree that they have nothing to do with the  verse of purification

Replied earlier in my last  post and i think there is no need to answer the repeated same questions already answered

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/18/2017 at 11:43 PM, Faruk said:


The prayer is not valid without the Salawat. To give Salawat is a form of Ibada.

And in the Salawat the aale Muhammad a.s. are connected to Muhammad s.a.w.a.s.

There is a difference between words ahl and aal. A person's aal includes his family, friends and followers as well.

On 3/18/2017 at 11:45 PM, Faruk said:

Also the members of the Ahl al-Bayt are purified and therefore do not receive sadaqah.

All descendants of ahlebayt also do not receive sadaqah. Are all of them also purified and thus infallible?

On 3/19/2017 at 1:26 AM, Engineer73 said:

Want to add one more important point, we have to keep "mawaddat" for the ahlul bait (a.s) in our hearts, it is mentioned as "Ajr-e-Risalat" in Quran.

There is no such thing for Sahaba.

Yes, there is.


وَالَّذِينَ تَبَوَّؤُوا الدَّارَ وَالْإِيمَانَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ يُحِبُّونَ مَنْ هَاجَرَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَا يَجِدُونَ فِي صُدُورِهِمْ حَاجَةً مِّمَّا أُوتُوا وَيُؤْثِرُونَ عَلَى أَنفُسِهِمْ وَلَوْ كَانَ بِهِمْ خَصَاصَةٌ وَمَن يُوقَ شُحَّ نَفْسِهِ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ {9

And those who made their abode in the city and in the faith before them love those who have fled to them, and do not find in their hearts a need of what they are given, and prefer (them) before themselves though poverty may afflict them, and whoever is preserved from the niggardliness of his soul, these it is that are the successful ones. [Hashar: 9]


وَالَّذِينَ جَاؤُوا مِن بَعْدِهِمْ يَقُولُونَ رَبَّنَا اغْفِرْ لَنَا وَلِإِخْوَانِنَا الَّذِينَ سَبَقُونَا بِالْإِيمَانِ وَلَا تَجْعَلْ فِي قُلُوبِنَا غِلًّا لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا رَبَّنَا إِنَّكَ رَؤُوفٌ رَّحِيمٌ {

 
And those who come after them say: Our Lord! forgive us and those of our brethren who had precedence of us in faith, and do not allow any spite to remain in our hearts towards those who believe, our Lord! surely Thou art Kind, Merciful. [Hashar: 10]

 

On 8/28/2017 at 4:49 PM, skyweb1987 said:

In the light of the verse of purification and the hadiths of the prophet saww the term Ahl albayat (as quoted in verse of purification 33:33 (last part)) includes only 13 individuals (including 12 imams and the daughter of the prophet Fatima SA. The prophet is  covered in this verse of purification as a purified individual . No one else has this purified status except the prophet and his pure progeny ie Ahl albayat.

The other house members of the prophet saww may be included in the family of the prophet saww in general meaning without being covered in the purification verse.

You are well aware of all these meanings being a Veteran Member. of SC

Hadith kisa includes only 4 members of ahlebayt not 13. So no one else has this purified status except the prophet and those 4 members of his progeny.

The other house members of the prophet saww may be included in the family of the prophet saww in general meaning without being covered in the purification verse. Only 4 were covered by prophet under cloak, not 13.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Hadith kisa includes only 4 members of ahlebayt not 13. So no one else has this purified status except the prophet and those 4 members of his progeny.

This is your assumptions but the prophet himself has included the members of purified family ie Ahl albayat upto the last member ie 12 Imam Al-Mahdi. only 4 members were alive in the life of the prophet saww thus you can find 4 members under the cloak / kissa at the revelation of the verse of purification.

The narrations about 12 caliphs / ameers / Imams/ successors  from Quresh are present in both sunnis and shia sources. Those 12 names include the first one is Imam Ali and the last  ie12 is Al Mahdi. In the light of the hadith of the prophet saww, they are all 13 purified members of Ahl albayat.

The Prophets are infallible and no fallible one can be the leader of the ummah after the prophet saww. The same principle is applicable till the last ie 12 caliph / imam/ successor from the pure progeny of the prophet saww for the guidance of ummah..

They are all purified ones and no fallible can be right against these purified individuals.

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Yes, there is.


وَالَّذِينَ تَبَوَّؤُوا الدَّارَ وَالْإِيمَانَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ يُحِبُّونَ مَنْ هَاجَرَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَا يَجِدُونَ فِي صُدُورِهِمْ حَاجَةً مِّمَّا أُوتُوا وَيُؤْثِرُونَ عَلَى أَنفُسِهِمْ وَلَوْ كَانَ بِهِمْ خَصَاصَةٌ وَمَن يُوقَ شُحَّ نَفْسِهِ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ {9

And those who made their abode in the city and in the faith before them love those who have fled to them, and do not find in their hearts a need of what they are given, and prefer (them) before themselves though poverty may afflict them, and whoever is preserved from the niggardliness of his soul, these it is that are the successful ones. [Hashar: 9]

Do you intend to know who are these successful ones ie Muflehun.

٥٨_٢٢   لَّا تَجِدُ قَوْمًۭا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلْءَاخِرِ يُوَآدُّونَ مَنْ حَآدَّ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَلَوْ كَانُوٓا۟ ءَابَآءَهُمْ أَوْ أَبْنَآءَهُمْ أَوْ إِخْوَٰنَهُمْ أَوْ عَشِيرَتَهُمْ ۚ أُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ كَتَبَ فِى قُلُوبِهِمُ ٱلْإِيمَٰنَ وَأَيَّدَهُم بِرُوحٍۢ مِّنْهُ ۖ وَيُدْخِلُهُمْ جَنَّٰتٍۢ تَجْرِى مِن تَحْتِهَا ٱلْأَنْهَٰرُ خَٰلِدِينَ فِيهَا ۚ رَضِىَ ٱللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا۟ عَنْهُ ۚ أُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ حِزْبُ ٱللَّهِ ۚ أَلَآ إِنَّ حِزْبَ ٱللَّهِ هُمُ ٱلْمُفْلِحُونَ

58:022 You will not find a people believing in Allah and the Last Day endearing those who oppose Allah and His Messenger even though they were their own parents, or children, or brothers, or kinsfolk. [For] such, He has written faith into their hearts and strengthened them with a spirit from Him. He will admit them into gardens with streams running in them, to remain in them [forever], Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. They are Allah’s confederates. Look! The confederates of Allah are indeed felicitous!

Thus Muflehun are those who are termed as Hizb ullha. the following verses describe the identification  of this hizb ullah:

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُۥ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ٱلَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ ٱلزَّكَوٰةَ وَهُمْ رَٰكِعُونَ {٥٥}

٥_٥٦     وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ ٱللَّهِ هُمُ ٱلْغَٰلِبُونَ

005:055 Your guardian is only Allah, His Messenger, and the faithful who maintain the prayer and give the zakat while bowing down.

005:056 Whoever takes for his guardians Allah, His Messenger and the faithful [should know that] the confederates of Allah are indeed the victorious.

Razi Allah are the hizb ullah ie those who take Allah, the prophet and Imam Ali as their Wali.

The above verses indicate those addressed in above verses are followers of the prophet saww and Imam Ali As who gave zakat in the prayer while bowing down.

\wasalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

This is your assumptions but the prophet himself has included the members of purified family ie Ahl albayat upto the last member ie 12 Imam Al-Mahdi. only 4 members were alive in the life of the prophet saww thus you can find 4 members under the cloak / kissa at the revelation of the verse of purification.

The narrations about 12 caliphs / ameers / Imams/ successors  from Quresh are present in both sunnis and shia sources. Those 12 names include the first one is Imam Ali and the last  ie12 is Al Mahdi. In the light of the hadith of the prophet saww, they are all 13 purified members of Ahl albayat.

The Prophets are infallible and no fallible one can be the leader of the ummah after the prophet saww. The same principle is applicable till the last ie 12 caliph / imam/ successor from the pure progeny of the prophet saww for the guidance of ummah..

They are all purified ones and no fallible can be right against these purified individuals.

wasalam

My assumption or yours.

1. Hadith kisa is about ahlebayt including only 4 members not 12 or 13. Rest is just your assumption.

2. Narration of 12 caliphs or Imams say they will be from Quresh, not from only ahlebayt. That's why in reality we have seen caliphs from non ahlebayt as well. Because quresh tribe include many many sub tribes. Here again you are assuming infallibility in the light of hadith kisa which include only 4 and where they are mentioned by name.

3. This is again one more assumption. There is a difference between theory and reality.

wasalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Do you intend to know who are these successful ones ie Muflehun.

٥٨_٢٢   لَّا تَجِدُ قَوْمًۭا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلْءَاخِرِ يُوَآدُّونَ مَنْ حَآدَّ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَلَوْ كَانُوٓا۟ ءَابَآءَهُمْ أَوْ أَبْنَآءَهُمْ أَوْ إِخْوَٰنَهُمْ أَوْ عَشِيرَتَهُمْ ۚ أُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ كَتَبَ فِى قُلُوبِهِمُ ٱلْإِيمَٰنَ وَأَيَّدَهُم بِرُوحٍۢ مِّنْهُ ۖ وَيُدْخِلُهُمْ جَنَّٰتٍۢ تَجْرِى مِن تَحْتِهَا ٱلْأَنْهَٰرُ خَٰلِدِينَ فِيهَا ۚ رَضِىَ ٱللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا۟ عَنْهُ ۚ أُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ حِزْبُ ٱللَّهِ ۚ أَلَآ إِنَّ حِزْبَ ٱللَّهِ هُمُ ٱلْمُفْلِحُونَ

58:022 You will not find a people believing in Allah and the Last Day endearing those who oppose Allah and His Messenger even though they were their own parents, or children, or brothers, or kinsfolk. [For] such, He has written faith into their hearts and strengthened them with a spirit from Him. He will admit them into gardens with streams running in them, to remain in them [forever], Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. They are Allah’s confederates. Look! The confederates of Allah are indeed felicitous!

Thus Muflehun are those who are termed as Hizb ullha. the following verses describe the identification  of this hizb ullah:

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُۥ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ٱلَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ ٱلزَّكَوٰةَ وَهُمْ رَٰكِعُونَ {٥٥}

٥_٥٦     وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ ٱللَّهِ هُمُ ٱلْغَٰلِبُونَ

005:055 Your guardian is only Allah, His Messenger, and the faithful who maintain the prayer and give the zakat while bowing down.

005:056 Whoever takes for his guardians Allah, His Messenger and the faithful [should know that] the confederates of Allah are indeed the victorious.

Razi Allah are the hizb ullah ie those who take Allah, the prophet and Imam Ali as their Wali.

The above verses indicate those addressed in above verses are followers of the prophet saww and Imam Ali As who gave zakat in the prayer while bowing down.

\wasalam

Word muflihun has been used several times in Quran and each time with different qualities of muflihun are mentioned. Its not just limited to a certain thing.

Sunnis in general (except a minority of nasibis) also consider Imam Ali as wali of Allah. You can ask any.

And all later generations including us are part of verse 10 not 9 which says:


وَالَّذِينَ جَاؤُوا مِن بَعْدِهِمْ يَقُولُونَ رَبَّنَا اغْفِرْ لَنَا وَلِإِخْوَانِنَا الَّذِينَ سَبَقُونَا بِالْإِيمَانِ وَلَا تَجْعَلْ فِي قُلُوبِنَا غِلًّا لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا رَبَّنَا إِنَّكَ رَؤُوفٌ رَّحِيمٌ {

 

And those who come after them say: Our Lord! forgive us and those of our brethren who had precedence of us in faith, and do not allow any spite to remain in our hearts towards those who believe, our Lord! surely Thou art Kind, Merciful. [Hashar: 10]

Its actually a supplication taught by Allah swt but I am not seeing this quality among twelvers. To which you are pointing out here that they are the only true followers of Imam Ali. In contrast twelvers are quick in cursing anyone to hell even for very minor sins.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

My assumption or yours.

1. Hadith kisa is about ahlebayt including only 4 members not 12 or 13. Rest is just your assumption 

Thanks at least we both agree that 4 persons from Ahl albayat were under the kissa / cloak and they are infallible

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Its actually a supplication taught by Allah swt but I am not seeing this quality among twelvers. To which you are pointing out here that they are the only true followers of Imam Ali. In contrast twelvers are quick in cursing anyone to hell even for very minor sins.

In reality sunni follow the innovations made by 3 caliphs in the name of the sunna of the holy prophet saww. Even they place place Imam Ali AS  at the 4th against the verse 5;55 & 56 as there is no one lies in between the prophet saww and Imam  Ali who are wali / master / leader of the ummah.

How do you deny the clear verses as described in the Quran including the verses of quran mentioning the meflehun as hizb ullah and hizb ullah  are the followers of the prophet saww and Imam Ali?

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235047603-difference-between-sahabi-and-ahl-albayt/?do=findComment&comment=3077721

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

2. Narration of 12 caliphs or Imams say they will be from Quresh, not from only ahlebayt. That's why in reality we have seen caliphs from non ahlebayt as well. Because quresh tribe include many many sub tribes. Here again you are assuming infallibility in the light of hadith kisa which include only 4 and where they are mentioned by name.

1. how do you interpret that the hadith of 12 caliphs / imam/ successors means the caliphs chosen by the peple? Can you quote an example of the prophet/ caliph / imam with the verse of Quran that the people can choose the prophet / caliph/ imam or leader after the prophet saww (instead of selction by Allah sw)t for  the guidance of the ummah?

2. the prophet saww has himself extended the members of the house of the prophet Ahl albayt till the last ei 12th Al Mahdi. as per the following hadith of the prophet saww:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "al-Mahdi is one of us Ahlul-Bayt."

Reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4085

also:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatimah (the Prophet's daughter).

References:

- Sunan Abi Dawud, English version, Ch. 36, Tradition #4271  (narrated by  Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet)

- Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4086

- al-Nisa'i and al-Bayhaqi, and others (as per al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249)

By the above traditions, the Prophet extended Ahlul-Bayt up to Imam al-Mahdi (AS). So Ahlul-Bayt are not just those 4 covered under the cloak, and Imam al-Mahdi is the last member of Ahlul-Bayt, but he was not born at the time of the Prophet so that he could take him into the Cloak as well!  Also the messenger of Allah said: in his traditions that

"There shall be twelve Caliphs/ Amirs / Imams for my nation"

References:

- Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v9, Tradition #329;

- Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV, v3, pp 1009-1010,  Traditions #4476 --> #4483;

- Sunan Abi Dawud, v2, p421 (three traditions);

- Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v4, p501;

- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p106;

- Others such as al-Tiyalasi, Ibn al-Athir, etc.

These 12 caliphs / Imams will cover till the day of resurrection as Sahih Muslim testifies. The last of them is  Imam al-Mahdi (AS) who will appear in the last days and who is also from Ahlul-Bayt.

There are other traditions in Sunni & Shia collections in which the Prophet (PBUH&HF) has mentioned the name of all these twelve individualize Imams fromAhl Albayt.

wasalam

 

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Its actually a supplication taught by Allah swt but I am not seeing this quality among twelvers. To which you are pointing out here that they are the only true followers of Imam Ali. In contrast twelvers are quick in cursing anyone to hell even for very minor sins.

The question remains unanswered that how a fallible can be a leader / caliph / successor of the Infallible prophet saww?

The people did not chose the prophet saww then how they can choose the successor / caliph after the prophet saww?

This is a violation of the divine appointment principle of Allah swt.

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Its actually a supplication taught by Allah swt but I am not seeing this quality among twelvers. To which you are pointing out here that they are the only true followers of Imam Ali. In contrast twelvers are quick in cursing anyone to hell even for very minor sins.

This is noting but a blame in the absence of any logical response for the verses of quran mentioned in my last post. I may also say that the Sunni follow only the innovations made by first 3 caliphs in the names of sunna  of the prophet saww. 

The supplication from quran has noting to do with the defined principle of Caliphate of divinely appointed caliphs. Thus your false assumptions are rejected.

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/4/2017 at 10:46 PM, skyweb1987 said:

Thanks at least we both agree that 4 persons from Ahl albayat were under the kissa / cloak and they are infallible

I did not say it means they are infallibles. Rather I said this on behalf of shias that if hadith kisa is the criteria for infallibility then only 4 can be considered infallibles not 12 or 13. Considering others is just a wishful thinking.

Can you quote a narration from ahlebayt showing hadith kisa (verse 33:33) proves infalliblity for 4 or 13?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/5/2017 at 6:27 AM, skyweb1987 said:
On 9/4/2017 at 5:57 PM, Munzir Ahmed said:

Its actually a supplication taught by Allah swt but I am not seeing this quality among twelvers. To which you are pointing out here that they are the only true followers of Imam Ali. In contrast twelvers are quick in cursing anyone to hell even for very minor sins.

In reality sunni follow the innovations made by 3 caliphs in the name of the sunna of the holy prophet saww. Even they place place Imam Ali AS  at the 4th against the verse 5;55 & 56 as there is no one lies in between the prophet saww and Imam  Ali who are wali / master / leader of the ummah.

How do you deny the clear verses as described in the Quran including the verses of quran mentioning the meflehun as hizb ullah and hizb ullah  are the followers of the prophet saww and Imam Ali?

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235047603-difference-between-sahabi-and-ahl-albayt/?do=findComment&comment=3077721

So you are accepting that twelvers are lacking in above quality. I personally never ever have seen any single shia doing or quoting or teaching this supplication. Quality of forgiving is far superior than cursing. And this supplication taught us the same.

Innovations? you mean prayer is better than sleep, taraweh, banning of mutah etc then you are wrong. There are narrations on these topics from prophet saw as well. Check yourself.

They place Imam Ali at 4th because he became caliph at 4th number. This is reality.

I do not interpret verses 5:55-56 as you did. These are general verses including all believers. See 56 it says وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟. Verses before and after i.e 51-54 and 57 onwards also start with Ya Ayuhal-lazeena Aamanu (including all believers in general) and saying that do not make yahud and nasara your wali. Then to whom we should? obviously to your fellow believers. Its a common sense. These verses inform us about who is our true enemy and true friend.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/5/2017 at 6:42 AM, skyweb1987 said:

1. how do you interpret that the hadith of 12 caliphs / imam/ successors means the caliphs chosen by the peple? Can you quote an example of the prophet/ caliph / imam with the verse of Quran that the people can choose the prophet / caliph/ imam or leader after the prophet saww (instead of selction by Allah sw)t for  the guidance of the ummah?

Examples are everywhere in the world. In Quran for example ulil amr minkum (from amongst you). Every nation every country every city has their own leader chosen by they themselves.

In Iran as well the supreme leader is people chosen. Likewise its upto the people to choose a marjae and they can also switch.

In the time of caliphate of Islam there were governors for every region (chosen by people) in other words ulil amrs.

This is practical reality today. Everything else is a conjecture. Perhaps that's why Khomieni came up with this idea of wilayat e faqih.

 

On 9/5/2017 at 6:42 AM, skyweb1987 said:

2. the prophet saww has himself extended the members of the house of the prophet Ahl albayt till the last ei 12th Al Mahdi. as per the following hadith of the prophet saww:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "al-Mahdi is one of us Ahlul-Bayt."

Reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4085

also:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatimah (the Prophet's daughter).

References:

- Sunan Abi Dawud, English version, Ch. 36, Tradition #4271  (narrated by  Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet)

- Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4086

- al-Nisa'i and al-Bayhaqi, and others (as per al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249)

By the above traditions, the Prophet extended Ahlul-Bayt up to Imam al-Mahdi (AS). So Ahlul-Bayt are not just those 4 covered under the cloak, and Imam al-Mahdi is the last member of Ahlul-Bayt, but he was not born at the time of the Prophet so that he could take him into the Cloak as well!  Also the messenger of Allah said: in his traditions that

"There shall be twelve Caliphs/ Amirs / Imams for my nation"

References:

- Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v9, Tradition #329;

- Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV, v3, pp 1009-1010,  Traditions #4476 --> #4483;

- Sunan Abi Dawud, v2, p421 (three traditions);

- Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v4, p501;

- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p106;

- Others such as al-Tiyalasi, Ibn al-Athir, etc.

Prophet here said one of us not last or 12th of us. He further said from progeny of Fatima not from progeny of Hussain so it could be from Hassan's progeny. And prophet saw had also included Salman Farsi in ahlebayt. So then make him also an infallible by same logic that he could take him into the cloak as well.

Moreover, there is a report from prophet saw on birth as well as on death of Zayd bin Ali and also on his merits. So include him as well and make it 15 or 16. On other hand there are not any prophecies specifically mentioning rest of the Imams (except first 5 and Imam mahdi) yet they are considered as infallible and divinely appointed. Makes no sense. And it was Zayd bin Ali who resembles to Imam Ali more than anyone else after him, says Imam Ali Reza.

 

On 9/5/2017 at 6:42 AM, skyweb1987 said:

These 12 caliphs / Imams will cover till the day of resurrection as Sahih Muslim testifies. The last of them is  Imam al-Mahdi (AS) who will appear in the last days and who is also from Ahlul-Bayt.

There are other traditions in Sunni & Shia collections in which the Prophet (PBUH&HF) has mentioned the name of all these twelve individualize Imams fromAhl Albayt.

wasalam

Such reports are terribly weak. Otherwise shiites of that time would not have differed so much on who is the next Imam.

In short, brother you are following theories having no solid proofs but assumptions in contrast to practical realities i.e system of election or consultation which is there since the end of prophethood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The question remains unanswered that how a fallible can be a leader / caliph / successor of the Infallible prophet saww?

The people did not chose the prophet saww then how they can choose the successor / caliph after the prophet saww?

This is a violation of the divine appointment principle of Allah swt.

Because now there will be no any prophet (a divienly appointed person with revelations and miracles).

This is obedience of end of prophethood principle of Allah, not any violation.

 

18 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:
On 9/4/2017 at 5:57 PM, Munzir Ahmed said:

Its actually a supplication taught by Allah swt but I am not seeing this quality among twelvers. To which you are pointing out here that they are the only true followers of Imam Ali. In contrast twelvers are quick in cursing anyone to hell even for very minor sins.

This is noting but a blame in the absence of any logical response for the verses of quran mentioned in my last post. I may also say that the Sunni follow only the innovations made by first 3 caliphs in the names of sunna  of the prophet saww. 

The supplication from quran has noting to do with the defined principle of Caliphate of divinely appointed caliphs. Thus your false assumptions are rejected.

Response is there in my last post. And its an undeniable fact that cursing is a quality of twelvers which is in contrast to Surah hashar 9-10. 

First 3 caliphs were not super natural humans unlike twelver Imams (shia belief). Yet they became successful in becoming caliphs plus also in performing their duties as people chosen caliphs. And on same principles Imam Ali became caliph. Whereas divinely appointed caliphs got no such success rather used taqqiyah to save their lives and the same time were super natural human beings. Is this logical at all?

Brother, follow reality not theories/myths which has no practical application.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Response is there in my last post. And its an undeniable fact that cursing is a quality of twelvers which is in contrast to Surah hashar 9-10. 

 

Why should I not curse those whom Allah's Messenger has cursed and who are cursed in Allah's Book!,

not my words but it's reported on page 23/54, tafsir ibn kathir on verse 59:7

Imam Ahmad recorded that Abdullah bin Mas`ud said, "Allah curses women who practice tattooing and those who get themselves tattooed, and the women who remove the hair from their eyebrows and faces and those who make artificial spaces between their teeth in order to look more beautiful, whereby changing Allah's creation.''

His statement reached a woman from Bani Asad called, Umm Ya`qub, who came to Abdullah and

said, "I have come to know that you have cursed such and such''.

He replied, "Why should I not curse those whom Allah's Messenger has cursed and who are cursed

in Allah's Book!''

Umm Ya`qub said, "I have read the whole Qur'an, but did not find in it what you say.''

He said, "Verily, if you have read the Qur'an, you have found it. Didn't you read,.....

(And whatsoever the Messenger gives you take it and whatsoever he forbids you,

you abstain (from it)).''

She replied, "Yes, I did.''

He said, "Verily, Allah's Messenger forbade such things.''

She said, "But I think that your wife does these things''

He said, "Go and look at her.''

She went and watched her, but could not see anything in support of her claim. She went back to Abdullah bin Mas`ud and said that she did not notice anything on his wife. On that he said,

"If my wife was as you thought, I would not keep her with me.''[/QUOTE}

5 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

First 3 caliphs were not super natural humans unlike twelver Imams (shia belief). Yet they became successful in becoming caliphs plus also in performing their duties as people chosen caliphs. And on same principles Imam Ali became caliph. Whereas divinely appointed caliphs got no such success rather used taqqiyah to save their lives and the same time were super natural human beings. Is this logical at all?

Brother, follow reality not theories/myths which has no practical application.

bro, do ponder about this quranic verse [7:155]

[Shakir 7:155] And Musa chose out of his people seventy men for Our appointment; so when the earthquake overtook them, he said: My Lord! if Thou hadst pleased, Thou hadst destroyed them before and myself (too); wilt Thou destroy us for what the fools among us have done? It is naught but Thy trial, Thou makest err with it whom Thou pleasest and guidest whom Thou pleasest: Thou art our Guardian, therefore forgive us and have mercy on us, and Thou art the best of the forgivers.

so, there's a lesson for us. Prophet Musa as, selected 70 people whose sincerity he was sure, but it turned out they were hypocrites.

so how sure are we that we will select the righteous imam and not the misguided imam? are we aware of the hidden secrets and concealed thoughts?

[Shakir 28:68] And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs;

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

I did not say it means they are infallibles. Rather I said this on behalf of shias that if hadith kisa is the criteria for infallibility then only 4 can be considered infallibles not 12 or 13. Considering others is just a wishful thinking.

What you said is part of this thread the following mentions it:

"Hadith kisa includes only 4 members of ahlebayt not 13. So no one else has this purified status except the prophet and those 4 members of his progeny."

So your statements are contradictory in sense. Are not these?

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Can you quote a narration from ahlebayt showing hadith kisa (verse 33:33) proves infalliblity for 4 or 13?

First the verse of purification mentions that there  were 4 members of Ahl albayat present under the cloak with the prophet saww declared purified infallible wit the verse of purification 33:33. Do you accept or reject it ?

There are many narrations from the prophet mentioning the names of those Ahl alabayt (including 12 imams). thus mentioning the 13 infallible including his daughter , Imam Ali and 11 Imams from his progeny.

Sunni and Shia sources:

 

Moreover, the following narration quote the words from Imams from Ahl albaayt quoting the verse of purification to confirm they are covered under this verse:

1. Imam al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali (as)

al-Hakim (in al-Mustadrak) in connection with the attainments of Imam al-Hasan, and al-Haythami (in connection with the excellence of the Holy Family) have narrated that Imam al-Hasan (as) addressed the people after the martyrdom of his father Imam ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as) and said during his speech:

O People! Whoever knows me, knows me and whoever doesn't know me should know that I am al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali; I am the son of the Holy Prophet and of his executor (Wasi). I am the son him who invited people to Allah and warned them of the torture of His Hell-fire. I am the son of the luminous Lamp. I belong to the family upon whom Gabriel used to descend and from there ascend to heavens. I belong to the family from whom Allah has ward off all filth and made them pure.

Sunni references:

    • al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p172

    • Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p172

2- Imam Ali bin Hussain AS:

While commenting on the verse 33:33, al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir and al-Suyuti have stated in their exegesis:

‘Ali Ibn Husayn said to a Syrian: "Have you read this verse in Surah al-Ahzab, O people of the House! Allah intends to keep you pure from blemish and to purify you with a thorough purification (Qur’an 33:33)?"

The Syrian said: "Does this verse pertain to you?”The Imam replied: "Yes, it pertains to us."

Sunni references:

        • Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v22, p7

        • Tafsir Ibn Kathir, v3, p486

        • Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh al-Suyuti, v5, p199

Do you not believe the words of the prophet saww that last ie 12 Imam is from us ie ahl alabayt?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

So you are accepting that twelvers are lacking in above quality. I personally never ever have seen any single shia doing or quoting or teaching this supplication. Quality of forgiving is far superior than cursing. And this supplication taught us the same.

Innovations? you mean prayer is better than sleep, taraweh, banning of mutah etc then you are wrong. There are narrations on these topics from prophet saw as well. Check yourself.

They place Imam Ali at 4th because he became caliph at 4th number. This is reality.

I do not interpret verses 5:55-56 as you did. These are general verses including all believers. See 56 it says وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟. Verses before and after i.e 51-54 and 57 onwards also start with Ya Ayuhal-lazeena Aamanu (including all believers in general) and saying that do not make yahud and nasara your wali. Then to whom we should? obviously to your fellow believers. Its a common sense. These verses inform us about who is our true enemy and true friend.

1-      You are just exaggerating the facts by trying to put your foul words in my mouth. I certainly throw these words on the wall

2-      As far as cursing is concerned Allah swt sends curse to whom who deserve it. Look at the following verses:

 Curse on Iblis.

And surely on you is curse until the Day of Judgment.’                                       
(Surah Hijr, 15:35)

‘And surely My curse is on you until the Day of Judgment.’                              
 (Surah Suad, 38:78)

 Curse on disbelievers;

 ‘Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them. And Allah has cursed them and they shall have a lasting punishment.’

(Surah Tauba, 9:68)

 Those who turned to disbelief after believing

‘How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their believing and (after) they had borne witness that the Apostle was true and clear arguments had come to them; and Allah does not guide the unjust people. (As for) these, their reward is that upon them is the curse of Allah and the angels and of men, all together.’

(Surah Ale Imran, 3:86-87)

http://lanatinislam.blogspot.com/2012/09/curse-in-holy-quran.html

3- The biggest innovation of early caliphs is the man made caliphate that does not exist in quran. They did not choose the prophet so that cannot chose his successor or imam or caliph after him.

4- The common sense does not work when the matter has been decided the verses of quran and the hadith of the prophet saw. The narrations for the verse 5:55 indicates that it was revealed for imam Ali when he gave zakat whole bowing down in the prayer and he is reffered as wali after the prophet in it.. Also the quran is not a book like scène book or subject book mentioning sequential order toipcs. The verse and even the parts of the verses address different circumstances.

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/certainly-your-master

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Examples are everywhere in the world. In Quran for example ulil amr minkum (from amongst you). Every nation every country every city has their own leader chosen by they themselves.

If there are so many examples then please quote the name of one single prophet saw that was chosen by the people with the said verse of quran.

Please quote a name of caliph chosen the people for the guidance of ummah instead of Allah swt  with the verse of quran mentioning him.

Please quote a name of single Imam chosen the people for the guidance of ummah instead of Allah swt  with the verse of quran mentioning him

The verse of Ulil Amr is not a relevant verse as this does not say that people can choose, the prophet, neither it mentions that the people can choose the caliphs nor it mentions the people can select and imam for the guidance of ummah,

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

In Iran as well the supreme leader is people chosen. Likewise its upto the people to choose a marjae and they can also switch.

In the time of caliphate of Islam there were governors for every region (chosen by people) in other words ulil amrs.

This is practical reality today. Everything else is a conjecture. Perhaps that's why Khomieni came up with this idea of wilayat e faqih.

The persons mentioned by you are the leaders of small group of people and they are not the caliph /successor of the holy prophet saw.  Also the religion is not based on the examples of this word.

Do you take Donald Trump as your leader after the prophet saw as his successor for following your religion if living in america?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Prophet here said one of us not last or 12th of us. He further said from progeny of Fatima not from progeny of Hussain so it could be from Hassan's progeny. And prophet saw had also included Salman Farsi in ahlebayt. So then make him also an infallible by same logic that he could take him into the cloak as well.

The narrations from both sunni and shia sources have been mentioned the link is given in last post:

The names are very clear that Imam Mahdi is 12 th imam and all these 11 are from the progeny of Imam Ali AS. They are all from Ahl albayat of the prophet saww.

As Slaman Farsi RA has no blood relation with the prophet saww. He does not have stated purified status and this is the reason its name is not included in narrations mentioning 12 imams. You are misunderstood.

The Messenger (S) of Allah said: "Salman is from us Ahlul-Bayt."

which means he is our agent and is attached to us Ahlul-Bayt. In fact, Salman was an agent and a trustee for Ahlul-Bayt to the end of his life-time. His affinity to Ahlul-Bayt was to the extent that he was attached to them. An analogy would be a friend who would visit a family a lot, such that one would consider him attached to the family, although the blood relation is the only thing missing. Salman (ra) was one of the best companions of the Messenger of Allah. It is narrated that:

The Messenger of God said: "Certainly Allah commanded me to love four persons and informed me that He loves them.”The companions asked the Prophet: "O’ Messenger of God, who are those four persons?”The Prophet (S) replied: "‘Ali is from them (repeating that three times), Abu Dharr, Salman al-Farsi, and Miqdad."

Sunni References:

• Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p52, Tradition #149

• al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p130

• Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p356

• Fadha’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p648, Tradition #1103

• Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu’aym, v1, p172

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    •  @Mishael, Please read the thread shared by brother @Kazemi.

      I think you need this.
    • Salam. If you have one year before you start your Masters degree program, then there is no need to leave your family to go study Islam. Stay with your family and do as much independent study about Islam as you can. Do research on your own by reading and studying. After you achieve your Masters degree, inShaAllah you can take a break and reassess your situation to decide whether you want to take hawzah classes or other educational opportunities or if you need to work to pay off debts for yourself or your family.  
    • I have come to know when it comes to spirituality (sofism)there is nothing like Sunni Shia.  They are all same that true servant's and lovers of Allah. 
    • PBS, Charlie Rose, Fri17Nov17: lan Bremmer, Pres. of EurAsia Grp. KSA, Hariri, KSA Corruption, Yemen, lran, Qatar...       start time 45:30ff   KSA-lsrael at 52:30 (~new axis) https://charlierose.com/episodes/31184?autoplay=true 
    • Flower farming in Holland.
×