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On 2/14/2017 at 0:11 PM, AfricanShia said:

Imam_Ali's_First_Sermon_in_His_Peak_of_Eloquence

نهج البلاغة: ثم زينها بزينة الكواكب، وضياء الثواقب، وأجرى فيها سراجا مستطيرا وقمرا منيرا: في فلك دائر، وسقف سائر، ورقيم مائر

The very title of the book is 'peak of eloquence'. Eloquence requires mastering rhetoric speech which is the very opposite of literal. The description of the sky is from the terrestrial perspective of the heavens. In our day to day language we say 'the sun sets' and 'rises' which is all rhetoric and no one discusses the semantics except for linguistic purposes. No one says 'Get home before the earth rotates and the Sun is no longer shining directly on you'.

On 2/14/2017 at 9:19 AM, AfricanShia said:

Allah said he took water to make the sky.

Reference?

On 2/14/2017 at 11:22 AM, AfricanShia said:

But the Sun, moon and stars are within the sky. My point is proven. The Earth is a Dome. 

At this point you ought to say 'the Sky is a dome within which these things are contained' not that the Earth is a dome.

On 2/14/2017 at 11:59 AM, AfricanShia said:

My brother this life doesnt matter anyways. 

Then no point having this discussion.

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38 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

نهج البلاغة: ثم زينها بزينة الكواكب، وضياء الثواقب، وأجرى فيها سراجا مستطيرا وقمرا منيرا: في فلك دائر، وسقف سائر، ورقيم مائر

The very title of the book is 'peak of eloquence'. Eloquence requires mastering rhetoric speech which is the very opposite of literal. The description of the sky is from the terrestrial perspective of the heavens. In our day to day language we say 'the sun sets' and 'rises' which is all rhetoric and no one discusses the semantics except for linguistic purposes. No one says 'Get home before the earth rotates and the Sun is no longer shining directly on you'.

Reference?

At this point you ought to say 'the Sky is a dome within which these things are contained' not that the Earth is a dome.

Then no point having this 

38 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

نهج البلاغة: ثم زينها بزينة الكواكب، وضياء الثواقب، وأجرى فيها سراجا مستطيرا وقمرا منيرا: في فلك دائر، وسقف سائر، ورقيم مائر

The very title of the book is 'peak of eloquence'. Eloquence requires mastering rhetoric speech which is the very opposite of literal. The description of the sky is from the terrestrial perspective of the heavens. In our day to day language we say 'the sun sets' and 'rises' which is all rhetoric and no one discusses the semantics except for linguistic purposes. No one says 'Get home before the earth rotates and the Sun is no longer shining directly on you'.

Reference?

At this point you ought to say 'the Sky is a dome within which these things are contained' not that the Earth is a dome.

Then no point having this discussion.

Okay then. But this proves the Earth is shaped like a dome and not two domes glued together or anything else. I trust Imam Ali because he said it straight up. @notme is quite disrespectful because I dont get this knowledge from watching youtube videos I got it from reading. I probably read more than him. 

Edited by AfricanShia

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6 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

But this proves the Earth is shaped like a dome and not two domes glued together or anything else.

It doesn't prove anything about the Earth, the sermon is about the heavens how it appears from Earth.

Edited by Ozzy

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6 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

It doesn't prove anything about the Earth, the sermon is about the heavens how it appears from Earth.

Buddy. Where? Imam Ali literally said: The Moon, The Sun and the Stars are inside the sky, not outside in Space. Period. Full stop. Its common sense. At least people back then agreed without arguing. 

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12 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

It doesn't prove anything about the Earth, the sermon is about the heavens how it appears from Earth.

His first sermon is about the creation of Adam and the Universe. My brother correct your facts. 

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20 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

It doesn't prove anything about the Earth, the sermon is about the heavens how it appears from Earth.

Also you proved my point by quoting that Peak of Eloquence explains Earth from the perspective of the heavens which means the perspective of Allah, the one who made the Earth. 

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26 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

Buddy. Where? Imam Ali literally said: The Moon, The Sun and the Stars are inside the sky, not outside in Space. Period. Full stop. Its common sense. At least people back then agreed without arguing. 

No he didn't, he literally spoke in Arabic and you seem not to be able to distinguish between sky and space.

14 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

Also you proved my point by quoting that Peak of Eloquence explains Earth from the perspective of the heavens which means the perspective of Allah, the one who made the Earth. 

Actually no, I said the opposite:

21 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

the sermon is about the heavens how it appears from Earth.

مع السلامة

Edited by Ozzy

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2016/jan/20/flat-earth-believers-youtube-videos-conspiracy-theorists

The article includes some offensive language. Do not click link if coarse language offends you. It's a history of the flat earth movement.  I was wondering why I've never met a flat earther, I was sure they didn't exist, until about 2 years ago or so. Turns out it's a very new movement, only went public in 2009. 

I've never traveled around the whole world myself, but I know several honest and reliable people who have. If you've ever seen a lunar eclipse it's clear that the shadow of the earth is the shadow of a sphere. Not to mention, GPS. @Flat Earthers: have you ever used Google maps to navigate while driving? How do you suppose that works? It's amazing what technology we have nowadays - it even shows where the lights are red or where somebody is turning across traffic! 

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On 2/14/2017 at 3:30 PM, notme said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2016/jan/20/flat-earth-believers-youtube-videos-conspiracy-theorists

The article includes some offensive language. Do not click link if coarse language offends you. It's a history of the flat earth movement.  I was wondering why I've never met a flat earther, I was sure they didn't exist, until about 2 years ago or so. Turns out it's a very new movement, only went public in 2009. 

I've never traveled around the whole world myself, but I know several honest and reliable people who have. If you've ever seen a lunar eclipse it's clear that the shadow of the earth is the shadow of a sphere. Not to mention, GPS. @Flat Earthers: have you ever used Google maps to navigate while driving? How do you suppose that works? It's amazing what technology we have nowadays - it even shows where the lights are red or where somebody is turning across traffic! 

Oh yeah buddy ur so smart yet your arguing with a teenager who has more knowledge than you and it would take years for you to be on my level. Ur disrespectful and a waste of time. Haha. U call yourself a believer even though you doubt Imam Ali's knowledge! Besides do you even know where all this knowledge came from? Ha you dont so stop wasting my time. I have better things to do in my life than to be disrespected by ignorant believers. 

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10 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Im not but this belief cuts in with what even Imam Ali said himself. There is Science in Islam. Islam is Science. You must realise that Islam is much bigger than we can bear. 

I think you have to realise that Arabic is a very subtle and complex language. There is considerable evidence that we cannot use modern day translations of the words and try and retrospectively apply them to 1400 years ago.

Modern day usage of a word does not mean that word was used in that exact context 1400 years ago

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4 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

I think you have to realise that Arabic is a very subtle and complex language. There is considerable evidence that we cannot use modern day translations of the words and try and retrospectively apply them to 1400 years ago.

Modern day usage of a word does not mean that word was used in that exact context 1400 years ago

My brother I am finished with all this. I believe that what Imam Ali said was literal and exact. I love Imam Ali. He is even my profile picture. 

Edited by AfricanShia

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On 2/14/2017 at 4:19 PM, AfricanShia said:

Many people have been talking about this. Imam Ali said that the sky is like a firmanent. Allah said he took water to make the sky. Scientists say that it is just a reflection. Any comments?

Great point! I have been looking for hadiths on this, and here is one!

"Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, .. " Qur'an 22:18

If sun is a star, then why would Allah say sun, moon and stars?

Anyway, people ask why this is an important topic, and my thought is that it is exactly like arguing that we did not "evolve" from monkeys. Another attempt to go against the Quran and Bible. In the Bible we have even more explicit explanations of this firmament being made out of glass with water above it. Here is a video that talks about articles and interviews related to this that can get quite hilarious.

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Great point! I have been looking for hadiths on this, and here is one!

"Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, .. " Qur'an 22:18

If sun is a star, then why would Allah say sun, moon and stars?

Anyway, people ask why this is an important topic, and my thought is that it is exactly like arguing that we did not "evolve" from monkeys. Another attempt to go against the Quran and Bible. In the Bible we have even more explicit explanations of this firmament being made out of glass with water above it. Here is a video that talks about articles and interviews related to this that can get quite hilarious.

 

 

 

 

Finally at least someone agrees with me. In the Catholic version of the bible in Genesis it literally says that Allah made the Earth a dome and yes it says the word "dome".

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1 minute ago, AfricanShia said:

Finally at least someone agrees with me. In the Catholic version of the bible in Genesis it literally says that Allah made the Earth a dome and yes it says the word "dome".

brother i've been discussing this for a while and it's been getting quite lonely for me in this. Just posted here some more hadiths that might interest you ..

 

 

 

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here was the last time i tried to discuss this on shiachat ( started as peace seeker II ) .. went straight in the trash, while my only intention was to mainly discuss quran and ahadeeth ..

 

 

Edited by 313 Seeker

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19 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

Finally at least someone agrees with me. In the Catholic version of the bible in Genesis it literally says that Allah made the Earth a dome and yes it says the word "dome".

I was raised Catholic. The Catholic translation of the Bible has the exact same account of creation as all other translations, so if the Catholic translation of the Bible uses the word dome, other translations must also use the same or a similar word. When you say Catholic version, which translation are you referring to? 

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2 hours ago, notme said:

I was raised Catholic. The Catholic translation of the Bible has the exact same account of creation as all other translations, so if the Catholic translation of the Bible uses the word dome, other translations must also use the same or a similar word. When you say Catholic version, which translation are you referring to? 

I go to a Catholic School. If you are wondering the only reason why I am going to one is because they have one of the best educations. Anyways the bibles that they contain there mention that Allah gave the Earth a dome shape. The bible im referring is simply the Catholic Bible that is recognized by the Catholic Church that contains 73 canon books. 

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2 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

here was the last time i tried to discuss this on shiachat ( started as peace seeker II ) .. went straight in the trash, while my only intention was to mainly discuss quran and ahadeeth ..

 

 

 

2 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

here was the last time i tried to discuss this on shiachat ( started as peace seeker II ) .. went straight in the trash, while my only intention was to mainly discuss quran and ahadeeth ..

 

 

My brother just read Imam Ali's first sermon in Nahj-Al-Balagha(Peak Of Eloquence). He literally says the Sun,Moon and Stars are within our Sky. These so called Astronauts use fish-eye lenses. So many people are already doubting the Apollo Missions and if they actually happened. In reality, we cant leave the Earth. 

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1 hour ago, AfricanShia said:

 

My brother just read Imam Ali's first sermon in Nahj-Al-Balagha(Peak Of Eloquence). He literally says the Sun,Moon and Stars are within our Sky. These so called Astronauts use fish-eye lenses. So many people are already doubting the Apollo Missions and if they actually happened. In reality, we cant leave the Earth. 

 

yeah it's sad. apollo is a pagan god also known as osiris and represents satan. Ironic that it's Apollo vs. Bible in this case, as the mission was made by supposed Christian people. 

 

Anyway, it's the first time for me to read the first sermon in this context and it is very interesting. Thanks for that.

 

In the other hadiths i posted on the "Cosmology in Islam" thread, an Imam (as) describes the evolution of earth happening from wind + water = foam - after which the skies were created. This might explain the following part of the Sermon ..

 

".. Then Almighty raised the foam on to the open wind and vast firmament and made there-from the seven skies and made the lower one as a stationary surge and the upper one as protective ceiling and a high edifice without any pole to support it or nail to hold it together.

Then He decorated them with stars and the light of meteors and hung in it the shining sun and effulgent moon under the revolving sky, moving ceiling and rotating firmament."

 

Also, this high protective ceiling is in line with biblical accounts of a barrier that can't be crossed, which is described to be made of a type of glass. Basically a "moving and rotating firmament"

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30 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

 

yeah it's sad. apollo is a pagan god also known as osiris and represents satan. Ironic that it's Apollo vs. Bible in this case, as the mission was made by supposed Christian people. 

 

Anyway, it's the first time for me to read the first sermon in this context and it is very interesting. Thanks for that.

 

In the other hadiths i posted on the "Cosmology in Islam" thread, an Imam (as) describes the evolution of earth happening from wind + water = foam - after which the skies were created. This might explain the following part of the Sermon ..

 

".. Then Almighty raised the foam on to the open wind and vast firmament and made there-from the seven skies and made the lower one as a stationary surge and the upper one as protective ceiling and a high edifice without any pole to support it or nail to hold it together.

Then He decorated them with stars and the light of meteors and hung in it the shining sun and effulgent moon under the revolving sky, moving ceiling and rotating firmament."

 

Also, this high protective ceiling is in line with biblical accounts of a barrier that can't be crossed, which is described to be made of a type of glass. Basically a "moving and rotating firmament"

Well typed my brother. 

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

There is talk about this protective glass layer being Libyan Desert Glass. I was given some a while ago, and it's a theory. 58a5d5a99c325_Photoon2-16-17at6_07PM.thumb.jpg.7be86597560a9958fc4e2c4c710f118e.jpg

 

pleasure knowing you dear brother @AfricanShia, I am half african myself, with my mother being from an Egyptian family.

It was an honour for me

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