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19 hours ago, E.L King said:

I do. There is none.

Then why do you even open a discussion if it is just an absolute fact to you.

You do very little good with such extreme approach. I would even dare to say it is a double edged weapon this morbid approach to judging homosexuals, from my honest and personal experience:

By forcing such stubborn self righteous approach that clearly resembles that of a self proud bigot, you force majority of people here and other readers with some ethics, empathy, and respect for knowledge to adopt precisely the defensive approach in favour (sometimes more than it should be) of homosexuality. And what worries me most is why the heck you find pleasure in this.

It changes nothing, from a practical view, whether one is born with such feelings or not. You realize you have them before you even know what sexuality is. And the struggle is equally terrible and hard, yet, from my opinion, perfectly possible to live with it and control your actions/thoughts. What's the goal in discussing this? It exposes nothing, because whether someone is born gay or not, it doesn't change what Allah has forbidden for us, and that is more than enough for someone who cares to follow the religion of God. Period.

Edited by Bakir

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On 2/13/2017 at 8:45 AM, Ron_Burgundy said:

King, I could understand that you don't like gay people because you should keep you hatred to yourself and don't impose it on us.

King is fairly stubborn and hard headed, I had a conversation with him and he said all Non Muslims will go to hell.

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Some people think that righteous opposition to certain practices gives them free reign to say and do whatever they want, however they want, without hesitation or care about human consequence, all in the name of "exposing lies", "hating sins", and "telling the truth". The ends justify the means, and we know what that philosophy has done to the human race. 

I'm not sure the Prophet (s) used this approach. He carried the truth, but he didn't employ "any means necessary", largely because he had the wisdom to know what was productive and what wasn't. 

The tactic and approach in this thread is the same methodology used by Islamophobes to marginalize and ultimately harm Muslims. The confrontational approach, "gotcha" attitude, and proud lack of sensitivity are all characteristics--- and do nothing more than to escalate animosity and tensions on all sides. 

This verse came to mind:

And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do. (6:108)

Even though this is addressing other religions, it has a basic principle. What you dish out to others, you may get dished back (with interest) and that could impact yourself, your loved ones, or community in ways that weren't conceived or supposed. "Upholding truth" ends up hurting the truth seekers and bearers more than anything. 

We might say, "Who cares if Im borrowing from the playbook of bigoted, malicious xenophones, I'm on the truth and they are not, that's all that matters". I think somebody who thinks like this should be very concerned to be honest, or at least get off the computer for a bit. 

Edited by magma

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4 hours ago, Bakir said:

Then why do you even open a discussion if it is just an absolute fact to you.

You do very little good with such extreme approach. I would even dare to say it is a double edged weapon this morbid approach to judging homosexuals, from my honest and personal experience:

By forcing such stubborn self righteous approach that clearly resembles that of a self proud bigot, you force majority of people here and other readers with some ethics, empathy, and respect for knowledge to adopt precisely the defensive approach in favour (sometimes more than it should be) of homosexuality. And what worries me most is why the heck you find pleasure in this.

It changes nothing, from a practical view, whether one is born with such feelings or not. You realize you have them before you even know what sexuality is. And the struggle is equally terrible and hard, yet, from my opinion, perfectly possible to live with it and control your actions/thoughts. What's the goal in discussing this? It exposes nothing, because whether someone is born gay or not, it doesn't change what Allah has forbidden for us, and that is more than enough for someone who cares to follow the religion of God. Period.

All rhetoric. So much rhetoric, and very little discussing the actual topic. Exposes the truth once again.

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3 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

King is fairly stubborn and hard headed, I had a conversation with him and he said all Non Muslims will go to hell.

Focus on this discussion and stop derailing the topic which is about the people of Lut. I already made my case in that thread you are talking about, and you are welcome to discuss with me on PM if you want. But this topic is about homosexuals.

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2 hours ago, magma said:

Some people think that righteous opposition to certain practices gives them free reign to say and do whatever they want, however they want, without hesitation or care about human consequence, all in the name of "exposing lies", "hating sins", and "telling the truth". The ends justify the means, and we know what that philosophy has done to the human race. 

I'm not sure the Prophet (s) used this approach. He carried the truth, but he didn't employ "any means necessary", largely because he had the wisdom to know what was productive and what wasn't. 

The tactic and approach in this thread is the same methodology used by Islamophobes to marginalize and ultimately harm Muslims. The confrontational approach, "gotcha" attitude, and proud lack of sensitivity are all characteristics--- and do nothing more than to escalate animosity and tensions on all sides. 

This verse came to mind:

And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do. (6:108)

Even though this is addressing other religions, it has a basic principle. What you dish out to others, you may get dished back (with interest) and that could impact yourself, your loved ones, or community in ways that weren't conceived or supposed. "Upholding truth" ends up hurting the truth seekers and bearers more than anything. 

We might say, "Who cares if Im borrowing from the playbook of bigoted, malicious xenophones, I'm on the truth and they are not, that's all that matters". I think somebody who thinks like this should be very concerned to be honest, or at least get off the computer for a bit. 

Again, rhetoric. Derailing of the topic. Typical.

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

Again, rhetoric. Derailing of the topic. Typical.

You already gave your absolute final verdict on the topic. What more can anyone contribute? Someone says maybe, you say no. Now what?

Your posting on this thread has been mostly rhetorical one liners anyway, especially in response to longer, detailed posts. You have no idea how to respond, that's why, so you have no option but to dismiss it wholesale. 

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31 minutes ago, magma said:

You already gave your absolute final verdict on the topic. What more can anyone contribute? Someone says maybe, you say no. Now what?

Your posting on this thread has been mostly rhetorical one liners anyway, especially in response to longer, detailed posts. You have no idea how to respond, that's why, so you have no option but to dismiss it wholesale. 

I've responded to similar comments from you in the past so I have no reason to respond to you again, you and your "soft and moderate" tone. I am proud to be a bara'ah guy, someone who takes no apologetic tone towards disgusting sin.

And yes the Qur'an and Sunnah are with me regarding this. You can refer to my previous comments.

All you do is deflect from the topic because you have nothing to say about this topic. :)

Someone said maybe, but I know many people in this website believe Lut's people were born the way they are. I would like them to make their case and prove their opinion via facts.

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On 14/02/2017 at 11:27 PM, E.L King said:

Yes, there is no innate "s*xuality". I agree with that. The notion that there arw different s*xualities is also a Zionist lie and fabrication.

There is just one thing: men and women are naturally created for each other and are naturally created to be attracted to each other and there is no gene needed to prove that. 

1

Good. Stick to this view as being important to your faith. Just don't claim it as science. 

 

Quote

Another politically correct statement. I will refer to them as "the people of Lut" from now on.

Political correctness? It's about manners which are lacking in this thread and arrogance which is on full display. Many heterosexual Muslims nowadays are guilty of the crimes (rape, murder, fraud, violence, abuse, arrogance, self-love, etc) that were similarly carried out by nations of the past and which were punished for committing such sins. When a man of wisdom wants to educate others, he does not go about insulting them and degrading them by comparing them with the nations of the past. The story of the People of Lut was not just about people being homosexuals. It was about a nation's open transgression and open challenge to God; they did not make any effort of following divine commands and simply refused to obey despite receiving clear guidance directly from the representative of God. In comparison, people of today do not have direct guidance of God's representative, to begin with. They are also not trying to openly challenge God's Might or His Hukm after having received clear guidance. The reality is that this world is full of ideas and belief systems that are equally convincing, contradictory, confusing, complicated, ambiguous, and debatable etc. Whereas, the only person to unite people under one banner is the last Imam (according to shias) who will remove all doubts, answer all questions, offer proper solutions to all problems and stand firm against those who then openly transgress. Until this Imam is ordered by Allah to reappear, Muslims should show a bit of humility, worry about their own daily life transgressions (which Allah keeps secret) and if need be, use their little knowledge and wisdom to advise others in a tone that is appreciated by others.

p.s you now have a long history of being so obsessed with homosexuals that you have shown no regard to general mannerism, have in fact insulted other members at times and have shown no signs of improvement despite being advised in private. If you continue to be disrespectful like that you are no longer welcome on this forum.  

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On 2/15/2017 at 9:52 PM, E.L King said:

 

People still dodging the discussion which is are people born with such a defect. 

 

The answer is quite simple, no, there isn't a gay gene. It is more likely that it is a hormone imbalance.

Hormones can affect people to have a stronger tendency towards being gay if I am not mistaken.

Now stop being rude to people and get off the internet for a bit like Magma suggested.

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@Abbas & @Gaius I. Caesar

Glad you are on this thread Abbas because as a senior admin you may squash this. As a MD, @starlight may also think this is way off. That is why l waited.

Gaius wrote "no gay gene". Last week l was talking to an acquaintance who used a filthy description about gay behavior. Later l was considering what she said and came to this thought:

The anal behavior of gays is addictive just as people get addicted to enemas. l knew this later in grade school, yet looked it up online to see if there was any opposing views. Enema Addiction is a valid model.

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11 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

@Abbas & @Gaius I. Caesar

Glad you are on this thread Abbas because as a senior admin you may squash this. As a MD, @starlight may also think this is way off. That is why l waited.

Gaius wrote "no gay gene". Last week l was talking to an acquaintance who used a filthy description about gay behavior. Later l was considering what she said and came to this thought:

The anal behavior of gays is addictive just as people get addicted to enemas. l knew this later in grade school, yet looked it up online to see if there was any opposing views. Enema Addiction is a valid model.

You could be on to something, but I am fairly certain that it is a hormone imbalance that is beyond the control of the person but can managed with therapy and enough willpower. @Bakir please correct me if I am wrong but the klismaphilia model doesn't explain the emotional attraction between people who are gay. 

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@Gaius I. Caesar Thanks for the vocabulary. lt does sound better than the description.

To comment on attraction: l do not think it is chemical as with men and women, but the anticipation of shared 'thrill'. Some of their keywords indicate that to me -so that is my opinion.

I won't describe -thankfully for us all- but l knew some men who worked in the ER at an area hospital. l overheard one say something and when l asked what the discussion was and he told me, he knew l didn't believe him. So he asked another to come over and he tells the similar and the same story. They both knew l didn't believe them. So the one suggested l go ask another who was far enough away that l would know this wasn't something cooked-up as a put-on. After that, l believed them. Before this, l never would have imagined anyone so damn sick-in-the-head just to get a "sick thrill".

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@Gaius I. Caesar

Bro, l'd say you are correct about the dopamine, but endocrinological and other chemicals l know nothing about.

Added: published research articles:

Type C is probably the coincident theme of this thread

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-excess/201403/behind-enema-lines

from NIH (US)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7158678

OpEd: l guess my acquaintance was accurate.

Edited by hasanhh
published research; 2nd link correction

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46 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

@Abbas & @Gaius I. Caesar

Glad you are on this thread Abbas because as a senior admin you may squash this. As a MD, @starlight may also think this is way off. That is why l waited.

Gaius wrote "no gay gene". Last week l was talking to an acquaintance who used a filthy description about gay behavior. Later l was considering what she said and came to this thought:

The anal behavior of gays is addictive just as people get addicted to enemas. l knew this later in grade school, yet looked it up online to see if there was any opposing views. Enema Addiction is a valid model.

2

It could be one of the many factors but it may be too early for me to conclude that it is a definitive one. Such investigations generally rely on our approach to the issue. For example, are we questioning the addiction from the point of view that anal behaviour is the core issue surrounding homosexuality? Or are we questioning why homosexuals are simply attracted to one another as a stimulus to anal behaviour? [This statement gives benefit of the doubt to homosexuals that their attraction to one another is more than the urge to perform anal behaviour. In other words, anal behaviour is not the only issue. The attraction needs to be addressed too]. Am I on the same page or way off tangent?

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5 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Added: published research articles:

Type C is probably the coincident theme of this thread

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-excess/201403/behind-enema-lines

from NIH (US)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7158678

OpEd: l guess my acquaintance was accurate.

 

Thank you Hasan. These are interesting reads. Allow me to read them thoroughly and get back to you. 

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I support you @E.L King on this issue, Although I had differences with you in past or may be I hold many difference but here you are legitimate and according to religion and nature, there is nothing wrong in here. Except that we shall not call those to be homosexuals which were compelled to such sins because sins under compulsions are not punishable as said by Quran and Islam. But those who do these sins, even though they are not compelled to it are liable to be punished. And this what Torah, Bible and Quran agrees to. And to add further, adultery and indecency by men and women are also forbidden by divine religions. 

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Every sin is a bad habit. It is matter of choice, you want to be bad and you cannot say you were born bad, every human is born good, no any child likes bad things, they laugh when you make them happy and cry when you fight. Children do not laugh when you fight them and do not cry when you make them laugh. Sins bring disaster and harm and there is no any goodness in it, And good deeds bring benefits and no harm. Do not support homosexuality because if you support homosexuality you are counted among them. And this is recorded by God.

Edited by Sindbad05

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17 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

You could be on to something, but I am fairly certain that it is a hormone imbalance that is beyond the control of the person but can managed with therapy and enough willpower. @Bakir please correct me if I am wrong but the klismaphilia model doesn't explain the emotional attraction between people who are gay. 

Definitely not. Mostly because that's what those who never practiced anal sex (either because they refused that sexual practice or never engaged in a relationship with another man) can prove. From a personal standpoint, I assure you that too.

There may be some truth to it, but not the reason of why people feel homosexual desires essentially. In al Kafi, volume 5, there is a hadith that more or less says thay Allah will give the desire of women to the man who lets another man mount him. I guess this is some sort of psychological or physical tendency developed towards this practice.

One opinion I value a lot that I refuted was that of my islamic teacher and long-time friend. He used to say it is a misuse of one's nature. Today I relate more to this approach that I didn't use to understand well and my pride used not to let me see it more clearly. It is indeed a misuse or rather a lack of self knowledge. There are these hard years in which you are full of desires and you cant easily realize the source of your desires or even how you feel about them. Only patience and commitment can keep you safe. But it comes a time (in my case, when I actually asked myself and realized what really matters to me) where these thoughts and desires almost completely disappear. I may call myself homosexual because it is the only sexual orientation I have ever know in my life, but factually, I don't longer experience any type of addiction, dependence, desire or intention to indulge in sin or any type of emotional/romantic relationship with a man, not only because of deciding it, but because such feelings don't exist within me any longer, thanks to God always. Rather you end up feeling that loving a man that way or just being close to one is something detestable and harmful to you.

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On 17/02/2017 at 4:28 PM, Abbas. said:

Good. Stick to this view as being important to your faith. Just don't claim it as science. 

 

Political correctness? It's about manners which are lacking in this thread and arrogance which is on full display. Many heterosexual Muslims nowadays are guilty of the crimes (rape, murder, fraud, violence, abuse, arrogance, self-love, etc) that were similarly carried out by nations of the past and which were punished for committing such sins. When a man of wisdom wants to educate others, he does not go about insulting them and degrading them by comparing them with the nations of the past. The story of the People of Lut was not just about people being homosexuals. It was about a nation's open transgression and open challenge to God; they did not make any effort of following divine commands and simply refused to obey despite receiving clear guidance directly from the representative of God. In comparison, people of today do not have direct guidance of God's representative, to begin with. They are also not trying to openly challenge God's Might or His Hukm after having received clear guidance. The reality is that this world is full of ideas and belief systems that are equally convincing, contradictory, confusing, complicated, ambiguous, and debatable etc. Whereas, the only person to unite people under one banner is the last Imam (according to shias) who will remove all doubts, answer all questions, offer proper solutions to all problems and stand firm against those who then openly transgress. Until this Imam is ordered by Allah to reappear, Muslims should show a bit of humility, worry about their own daily life transgressions (which Allah keeps secret) and if need be, use their little knowledge and wisdom to advise others in a tone that is appreciated by others.

p.s you now have a long history of being so obsessed with homosexuals that you have shown no regard to general mannerism, have in fact insulted other members at times and have shown no signs of improvement despite being advised in private. If you continue to be disrespectful like that you are no longer welcome on this forum.  

Not faith mate. It is science. So far the "born that way" is nothing but a hypothesis, so using it as fact is false.

I don't treat transgressors the same way I treat Mu'mins, it's actually a matter of Fiqh that you do not treat the sinner the same you treat the one you haven't seen sin. Ever heard of adala?

It was just about homosexuals. That in itself is a challenge against Allah's natural and Divine Law.

Our job as Muslims is to spread the truth and try to unite people upon the banner of Islam, not just wait for the Imam (AS) to do so. And it's not "if need be" - it's a daily struggle, every Muslim has to be a warrior against sin. It's a wajib.

I don't know who I insulted in this thread, so I don't know why that was directed at me.

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