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This is not a thread any of us can make quips about.

Muhammad-saws said the Qadariyah are the "magi" of lslam. Magi being Zoroastrian magicians.

Their 'superstitions'/'beliefs' were clustered around "free will" and determinism. What the Prophet-saws said about what was determined for our individual nafs was/is challenged by the shallow arguments about free-will and schools(of thoughts) of Determinism.

What is "determined" for us is written in our books, whether llyn or Sijjin.  For example, death by lung cancer, whether we ever smoke or not.

Off hand, the Quran only reveals two "free wills" that l can quickly remember: 1] to believe or not believe, 2] our intentions -a standard applied to us on the Last Day.

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And what about the Umayyad state officials who defended their policy by saying that they were not personally responsible for what they did? On the contrary their actions were governed by God who was the power for everything for good and for evil alike.

Were they better than the Qadariyah?

Edited by Talut

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Salam,

As you see a who lot of Aqidah issues that the diffirent sects have today were linked to politics and affiliated to it i.e. lot of concepts defended the state policy of the diffirent Islamic rulers (Umayyads, Abbasids, etc.). Same counts for the ideology of the sects.

It wasn't just about abstract beliefs. There was actually no seperation between Islam and governmental issues.

Edited by Talut

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19 minutes ago, Talut said:

Salam,

As you see a who lot of Aqidah issues that the diffirent sects have today were linked to politics and affiliated to it i.e. lot of concepts defended the state policy of the diffirent Islamic rulers (Umayyads, Abbasids, etc.). Same counts for the ideology of the sects.

It wasn't just about abstract beliefs. There was actually no seperation between Islam and governmental issues.

Those who seek this world, religion does not have any value. They will cooperate with anyone even if it be Iblis for strengthening their rule. 

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22 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Those who seek this world, religion does not have any value. They will cooperate with anyone even if it be Iblis for strengthening their rule. 

That is why I plea for a re-examination of certain concepts in the light of Islamic history and politics so to localise and to get rid of these evil constructions that crept into our religion under the camouflage of 'islamic' beliefs.

Edited by Talut

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Just now, Talut said:

That is why I plea for a re-examination of certain concepts in the light of Islamic history and politics so to localise and to get rid of these evil constructions that crept into our religion under the camouflage of 'islamic'concepts.

lolz, bro there have remained hypocrites in the world, do you think that Prophets plead less ? Imam Ali a.s says in a quote: "Those who cannot listen to the high voices of Allah and Prophet PBUHHP, how can they give attention to this voice (implying towards himself)". Brother, this world has always remained a battle field between truth seekers and followers of ignorance. 

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14 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Brother, this world has always remained a battle field between truth seekers and followers of ignorance.

And I do believe that a re-examinition of these concepts and exposing their true nature and origins is part of this battle.

Every day is Ashura and every land is Karbala

Edited by Talut

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1 hour ago, Talut said:



And what about the Umayyad state officials who defended their policy by saying that they were not personally responsible for what they did? On the contrary their actions were governed by God who was the power for everything for good and for evil alike.

Were they better than the Qadariyah?

People trying to excuse their own sin and crime.

Whatever hokey philosophy you pick, words can be turned around and questions asked that block a reply.

As l remember from college this illustration concerned the Stoics: poor people are supposed to be poor so why don't you help them?

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17 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

People trying to excuse their own sin and crime.

Whatever hokey philosophy you pick, words can be turned around and questions asked that block a reply.

As l remember from college this illustration concerned the Stoics: poor people are supposed to be poor so why don't you help them?

hahahaha, lolz, hasanhh, that's funny, if that had been the case, why Allah made compulsory zakat, one could ask these questions to them as well. 

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4 hours ago, hasanhh said:

People trying to excuse their own sin and crime.

Whatever hokey philosophy you pick, words can be turned around and questions asked that block a reply.

Although the truth is in the middle, it is very normal that reactionairy philiosophies like Mutazlia and Qadariyah appeared or re-appeared on the scene. The extreme views are actually showing that the mainstream view was not balanced as well. Every sect or ideology has it accentuations and most of the time just show the other side of the coin.

Now the main question:

What is the view on Free Will and Pre-Destination of the Twelver Shia Muslims?

Edited by Talut

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4 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

As l remember from college this illustration concerned the Stoics: poor people are supposed to be poor so why don't you help them?

Why don't you help them or why do you help them?

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4 hours ago, Talut said:

Although the truth is in the middle, it is very normal that reactionairy philiosophies like Mutazlia and Qadariyah appeared or re-appeared on the scene. The extreme views are actually showing that the mainstream view was not balanced as well. Every sect or ideology has it accentuations and most of the time just show the other side of the coin.

Now the main question:

What is the view on Free Will and Pre-Destination of the Twelver Shia Muslims?

https://www.medinaminds.com/islam-free-will-or-predestination/

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There is a Qadariya sect in Hyderabad; I am not sure if in terms of affiliation with the Turkish entity/ties. They are a Sufi order and seem to be a Sunni derivative from what I understand. I personally have little knowledge of the branch aside from some JSTOR articles which I can append links to if you wish to read them. There is an indepth discussion on Tarika and lineage - nothing too old. 

While I think their liturgical process utilizes duas such as Nade Ali, it is (based on historical evidence that I have) suspect to consider any strong heredity from 12er sects. It is not an uncommon phenomenon to find heterorthodox theosophy and practice in a lot of the Indian Sufi branches, particularly in this day and age. A lot got stuffed up by kufr thinking in the Indian subcontinent by posers such as Kabir, Bulla Shah etc and a lot of proper Sufi teachers like Sheikh Fareed posthumously became a point of sectarian contention. I ceased my readings about this branch due to that issue.

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Some things we have free/will choices to make, some things we  don't, and only Allah SWT knows best which they are.

Surely, we are responsible for our own sins and choosing what is wrong and what is right, assuming we were taught those to begin with and were not ignorant of God's message. 

Surely, Allah SWT made each and every one of us different and unique from one another that the level of belief, capacity to do one deed over the other are different.  Spirituality, Intellect, Wisdom, Strength and other attributes all vary and they must.

The Qadariyah are still believers and are not Kufr, by any means. 

Each person must be judged according to their unique acts, deeds, beliefs and cannot all be bucketed/generalized.

Quran 22:17

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

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3 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Some things we have free/will choices to make, some things we  don't, and only Allah SWT knows best which they are.

Surely, we are responsible for our own sins and choosing what is wrong and what is right, assuming we were taught those to begin with and were not ignorant of God's message. 

Surely, Allah SWT made each and every one of us different and unique from one another that the level of belief, capacity to do one deed over the other are different.  Spirituality, Intellect, Wisdom, Strength and other attributes all vary and they must.

The Qadariyah are still believers and are not Kufr, by any means. 

Each person must be judged according to their unique acts, deeds, beliefs and cannot all be bucketed/generalized.

Quran 22:17

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

I did not call them such - but the mystics I cited (who werent Qadiri) werent called Kufr either. It was actually what they said and taught that was labelled as such by myself. Needless to say that eventually the corpus from these external groups did get integrated into certain Sufi traditions. 

There is a large history of Indo-Pak mystics proclaiming unity between non Islamic ideas of god/gods and those that are Islamic. In doing so, as well as publicly disavowing themselves from being Muslim was my point. They preached and taught about Islamic theosophy, ideas or at the very least the terminology from Islam within their sermons. 

The Qadiri sect until the 1980s did have apparent and recognizable authenticity in the transmission of their lineage, until the time the Osmania University was found. Thereafter you do find divergent ideologies.

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