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Hi Sindbad

I do not think it had made much difference if the Sanaa Bible had been chosen as canon. What troubles me is the belief that a Book with laws written for a 7th century society still is valid today. Such society today is not competative and will be run over by modern states if they do not adapt to reality. The Vatican also tried hard to stop development. Muslim dictators cant stop development forever either. Today with internet this is even harder. 

There never existed a "Bible of Jesus". Who told you? 

And where did you get your dating of the Gospels? I do not believe we can call the first generation Christians for "scholars". They were ordinary men who had information from eyewitnesses. Second generation they were, their writings dated to te 1st century. Normal humans, so were the inhabitants in Mekka. Humans make errors, and human memory is not perfect.

 

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1 minute ago, andres said:

Hi Sindbad

I do not think it had made much difference if the Sanaa Bible had been chosen as canon. What troubles me is the belief that a Book with laws written for a 7th century society still is valid today. Such society today is not competative and will be run over by modern states if they do not adapt to reality. The Vatican also tried hard to stop development. Muslim dictators cant stop development forever either. Today with internet this is even harder. 

There never existed a "Bible of Jesus". Who told you? 

And where did you get your dating of the Gospels? I do not believe we can call the first generation Christians for "scholars". They were ordinary men who had information from eyewitnesses. Second generation they were, their writings dated to te 1st century. Normal humans, so were the inhabitants in Mekka. Humans make errors, and human memory is not perfect.

 

lolz, I do not know why do you think that Quran is not compatible with the modern times. Every social and ethical laws and rules of justice which are foundation of the so-called modern society was derived from Quran. What is your criteria for choosing leadership ? Your criteria for choosing your leader by vote is to choose the one who is most experienced and brave person right. In Quran, there is a verse which speaks about on what basis Talut a.s was chosen by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì on the basis of "Knowledge and bravery". You may consider it as to be incompatible but many of the laws world are according to Quran such as death penalty for the murderers, however, those laws which this so-called modern world has not taken from Quran, it has seen failure in those areas. 

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6 minutes ago, andres said:

There never existed a "Bible of Jesus". Who told you? 

Early Bible was lost, and do you think that people of the fourth generations were well-versed than those who saw the Prophet Jesus himself ? I do not think so that persons who studies from Oxford university is equal to person who studied from the student of the student of the student of Oxford university. 

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26 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Early Bible was lost, and do you think that people of the fourth generations were well-versed than those who saw the Prophet Jesus himself ? I do not think so that persons who studies from Oxford university is equal to person who studied from the student of the student of the student of Oxford university. 

Who told you about this list Bible and your dating of the Gospels?

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@andres

sorry, I might be wrong about the years about when the Bible was again recollected, But I am sure that "Original Bible was lost" and Mathew, John, Luke and Mark's Gospels were collected into piece called as Evangel. Here is what I read according to reference.

The reference is from the book of the traditions of our eight Imam, Imam Ali ibn Musa Reza, title "Ayun-i-Akhbar-i-Reza".

Al-Reza(s) said, “O Catholic Archbishop! When you lost the first Bible, with
whom did you find it?” The Catholic Archbishop said, “We only lost the
Bible for one day. Then we found it fresh (in its original state). John and
Matthew brought it back to us.”
Al-Reza (s) asked him, “How little your knowledge of the Bible and
its scholars is! If what you say is right, then why is there so much dispute
amongst you with each other about the Bible? The reason is that
there is controversy lies in the Bible which is in your hands today. Had it
been the same as the first Bible, there would no disputes over it.
However, I will clarify this for you myself. Know that when the first
Bible was lost, the Christians gathered around their scholars and said to
them, ‘'Jesus (s): the son of (the Blessed Lady) Mary (s) has been killed,
and we have lost the Bible. You are the scholars. What do you have?’
Luke, Mark and John told them, ‘We have memorized the Bible. Do not
worry about it. Do not forsake the churches. We will recite each Gospel
of the Bible for you on each Sunday until we put it all together.’ Then
Luke, Mark, John and Matthew gathered together and put together this
Bible after you had lost the first one. These four students were of the
first students. Did you know that?”

Edited by Sindbad05

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Hi Sindbad05

I am sorry, but Imam Ali ibn Musa Reza does not know what he is talking about. Did he say who this archbishop was and when he lived? Try to be more critical against "alternative facts"

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Well to me it appears to the point, accurate and logical. You can yourself read the differences found in the gospels and the illogical fabrications which say that Jesus was God. So, Imam pointed out towards these facts. If you do not want to admit then I'm also not forcing you. Crux of the discussion is that if bible were not depraved, you would not have found so much contradictions in it.

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18 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Well to me it appears to the point, accurate and logical. You can yourself read the differences found in the gospels and the illogical fabrications which say that Jesus was God. So, Imam pointed out towards these facts. If you do not want to admit then I'm also not forcing you. Crux of the discussion is that if bible were not depraved, you would not have found so much contradictions in it.

I very well know that there are contradicting details between the 4 Gospels. Of course, had they been eyewitnesses there would probably also be, but less. The 4 Gospels are the earliest written documents about Jesus. Only Pauls letters are earlier. The first Christian generation was very certain that Jesus would return during their lifetime. We see this especially very clear from Pauls letters. When they understood that this was not going to happen, it became urgent to document the beliefs of the first Christian generation. Have there been earlier ones, they were totallt forgotten  in the 1st century, and they certainly would not have been Islamic

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4 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

And this was not competition of telling names but a debate which was organised by Mamun Rashid, the then Abbasid ruler. Your question about asking name is irrelevant. 

If the archbishop talked with a Muslim Imam, the bishop lived no earlier than the 7th century. Do you really believe that archbishop knew there were Gospels older than the 4 in the Bible from 1st century?

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12 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Yeah but our discussion for other versions was in the context of versions with different verses that may contradict each other. 

I believe that we both do not have any difference here, and I agree that Quran can be written in many other writings such as there were copies of Quran in "Kufi alphabets". So, I believe we call it "copies of Quran in different languages" rather than saying "different versions of Quran".

Whoa, never said they contradicted. There was only one difference brought to my attention, and it wasn't a contradiction. That's never where I'm going in discussion. The Quran and the Bible have some similarities in their history. I can only assume that if God proved to protect His scriptures through a chain, then the history of the Quran would only repeat it. It might be worth noting. 

I am kind of confused though. The more I learn, the more confused I get.  Qira'at

The Warsh version was transmitted by ‘Uthman Ibn Sa‘id al-Qutbi. I believe Shia are not crazy about Uthman, but were instructed by Imam Ali to heed his version.

I do remember something of Imam Ali offering his version, being rejected, and saying, "Then you will never see it again." Not sure what happened, did he bring it back to his people, or destroy it?

The Hafs is the world wide most popular version, and well accepted by Shia and Sunni alike, is also the most translated, kinda like the KJV was up to 200 years ago. 

The interesting thing is that the Hafs reader was Abu Bakr. Not sure if Shia are as okay with that.

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9 hours ago, andres said:

Do you really believe that archbishop knew there were Gospels older than the 4 in the Bible from 1st century?

Do you think that they do not have brains to think like that ? Do you think that they had 4 different accounts in their hands and could rule out the fact that there could be four others or eight others or 16 others ? I believe that there could be 100000 of Quranic unknown parchment undiscovered but they do not have any meaning for me because I have the "Real Quran" in my hand. But you are not certain about that because you yourself said that "Four gospels are not proper and contradict each other" so, it means you yourself are not satisfied with them and there are many questions for Christians unanswered till today such as "Contradictions" in the "four gospels" for which you are in need for most authentic gospel is not it true ? If you say that you are not in need, then it means you do not want to erase "contradictions in the bibles" and want to believe in wrongs in them. I think that every truth seeking soul does not rest if they have contradictory things in hand and it would just like to sleep without being restive. Archbishop knew that and you knew as well that. 

Edited by Sindbad05

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2 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I do remember something of Imam Ali offering his version, being rejected, and saying, "Then you will never see it again." Not sure what happened, did he bring it back to his people, or destroy it?

The Hafs is the world wide most popular version, and well accepted by Shia and Sunni alike, is also the most translated, kinda like the KJV was up to 200 years ago. 

The interesting thing is that the Hafs reader was Abu Bakr. Not sure if Shia are as okay with that.

He did not destroy a thing which he compiled with so much care and hardworking. That Quran is with Imam e Mehdi a.s. 

About Warish and Hafs, I told you, we do not talk about things if they were not mentioned before our 12 Imams and they did not say anything for them. The fact worth noticing is that "Uthmanic compiled Quran" was encouraged to be read by Shias and for that our Imams permitted us. 

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Just now, andres said:

Hi Sindbad05

There are nothing such as a perfect Bible or Quran or human being. All have errors. 

HI brother, There is always perfection and no one can deny that. Everyone has a perfect or Ideal. Quran is perfect book of guidance for us, if you deny it, then there were many before who denied it. There were always perfect humans in the shape of Prophets from whom we learnt many things and many denied them and also killed them but did not hurt them except hurting themselves and eliminating a viable resource for guidance.

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2 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

There were always perfect humans in the shape of Prophets from whom we learnt many things and many denied them and also killed them 

The deniers will find their report cards waiting for them on the Day of Judgment.

The corresponding reward/punishment implementation driver will then kick in. 

As for all of us. 

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3 minutes ago, baqar said:

The deniers will find their report cards waiting for them on the Day of Judgment.

The corresponding reward/punishment implementation driver will then kick in. 

As for all of us. 

Let's hope, that none of the present humans may do deeds which may cause God to incur his wrath. 

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Noble thought!

But those deeds are committed by millions of us all over the world every second of every day of our lives.

It is plain common sense that everyone will not be forgiven. 

But some of us may be.

So let us pray for forgiveness for our parents, our family and friends, for the abused, the downtrodden and the exploited of the world and for as many of the rest as possible.

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29 minutes ago, baqar said:

Noble thought!

But those deeds are committed by millions of us all over the world every second of every day of our lives.

It is plain common sense that everyone will not be forgiven. 

But some of us may be.

So let us pray for forgiveness for our parents, our family and friends, for the abused, the downtrodden and the exploited of the world and for as many of the rest as possible.

Yes, no doubt we should pray for all those who are oppressed and those who are misguided. And hope that Allah may forgive our sins and all innocent lives. 

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9 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

The more I learn, the more confused I get.

Hi SoP

I always try to to impart the little knowledge I have but this forum just does not have the expertise to answer all of your questions.

One option will be to put your queries in the General Discussions or the Quran forums of this website. And hope for the best.

Or may be it is about time to get in touch with some real humans rather than anonymous  dummies! I am sure there are Shia as well as Sunni scholars in the city you live in. Thanks to Google, I am sure you will be able to find them.

 

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@Son of Placid

besides @baqar suggestion, I would suggest you to visit following sites, the are a big help for dummies like me and others who are confused about what to study: 1. https://www.al-islam.org/ 2. http://www.sistani.org/english/book/fatwa/ 3. http://www.ziyaraat.net/findbook.asp (for urdu books and english books are also there). 4. http://www.islamicmobility.com/

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If you want the Sunni perspective, try

http://www.irshad.org/ask.php    

https://islamqa.info/en  

http://www.justaskislam.com/ 

www.islamicity.com     Community
  1.  
  2.  

askthescholar.com/

And this one below is Shia.

www.askthesheikh.com      

Next week I want to hear you say that it is all perfectly clear. and that you have applied for a doctorate in Islamic studies at a famous University.

Or did Trump allow you to study at the Hartford Seminary in Connecticut ? 

There is a department in that seminary known as Imam Ali Chair.   

 

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