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3 minutes ago, Ali Emanoil Mustafa said:

lol i read the bible maybe a dozen times.. idris is the arabic version of Enoch but whatever you say

Enoch does not correlate with ldris.

Enoch "God took him". That can also mean death, not only "heaven".

ldris-as, Sura 19:56-58, In the literal analysis, ldris-as was raised to a "high position" because Allah-swt bestowed on him-as and others a "favor". So ldris-as had a story more similar to Yusef-as than an assention like lsa-as.

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I am sorry to say I don't see any point to this thread.

I have been away for almost two years but coming back about a month ago, I can see that the number of active visitors is very much fewer but little else has changed in common approach.   

Those who were around in the early days of Shiachat might remember that I have pointed out at times that contentious discussions cannot possibly contribute to peace in the world. I remember the flack I had to endure but that is all in the past now. 

In fact, at times, I myself may have taken part in such discussions but as best as I can remember never proactively and if I have, it still cannot be justified. Wrong is always wrong even if you do it yourself.

Ideally, this forum and its sister, the Shia-Sunni should be replaced by something else. But if they have to be there, it would be much better to restrict them to one of information exchange and that is it. No more!

It is plain common sense that if we tell other people that their religion is false or their scriptures are tainted, we are hurting their feelings and that cannot win us any friends. I am sure everyone will agree that the world we live in, we need to make friends, not enemies. With the entire Western world at the moment cocking their guns at Iran, we Shias should be especially active trying to turn enemies into friends rather than the other way round. Please remember that if we Shias are in trouble, there is a better chance that a Christian country or even the Vatican might speak on our behalf, rather than Saudi Arabia, which is hell bent on destroying every trace of our beliefs in the world. 

What we are doing in such threads, I am sure, we wouldn't do this to people in our own neighbourhood. Just because we don't know people personally does not mean we should savour the pleasure of hurting them and their feelings. 

Imagine you relocated to a city where you found your lodging surrounded on all four sides by people of other religions. To the North, was a Christian family, to the south, a Jewish, to the east, a Hindu and to the West an atheist. Now you are a good social talker. And you want to go and meet  them.

Would you.take some newly baked cake with you and perhaps some toys for the children and engage in social chat? Or would you make sure that as soon as the cake has been eaten, you force the conversation to turn critically to their religion and their books?

I am sure you would prefer the former option.  

So why not try it here? 

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20Then Noah began farming and planted a vineyard. 21He drank of the wine and became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent. 22Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.…

La hawwla wala quwwatta illa billah... 

Allah presents an example of those who disbelieved: the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under two of Our righteous servants but betrayed them, so those Prophets did not avail them from Allah at all, and it was said, "Enter the Fire with those who enter." (66:10)

 

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12 hours ago, Ali Emanoil Mustafa said:

lol i read the bible maybe a dozen times.. idris is the arabic version of Enoch but whatever you say

There are obviously many similarities, but as far as I have found, there is no consensus on wether Idris and Enoch are the same.

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On 2/9/2017 at 3:53 PM, andres said:

Of course the Bible and Quran differs. However I wonder if Muhammed knew how. Does the Quran protest against the Biblical text or against what Jews and Christians said and did? The Bible does not say Mary is a Goddess, but Muhammed and Muslims still even today believe Christians worship her.

What do Christian call who gave birth to a God ?

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@andres

And please show in Quran, where it says that Christians worship Marry as God ? Quran only speaks of Trinity and God knows that Trinity referred to Son, Father and Holy Spirit. Since you cannot have conversation directly with God and Holy Spirit so Quran speaks about Jesus who has remained among the world visible and known by the people and his qualities which do not qualify for God.

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Yes, and the OT has a lot of consolidated history within.

OT that is older than the Quran could not  have borrowed from the Quran. The opposit is possible. What I am interested in, is to hear about historical material in the Quran that is from Muhammeds own culture. Like Luqman and possibly also Idris. Got more?

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

@andres

And please show in Quran, where it says that Christians worship Marry as God ? Quran only speaks of Trinity and God knows that Trinity referred to Son, Father and Holy Spirit. Since you cannot have conversation directly with God and Holy Spirit so Quran speaks about Jesus who has remained among the world visible and known by the people and his qualities which do not qualify for God.

In 5:116 the Quran criticises a belief in three Gods. God, Jesus and Mary.

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

What do Christian call who gave birth to a God ?

Virgin Mary, holy mother, Mother of God. Catholics may have more names. Naturally many think this means Mary is believed to be a God. Believe it or not, Christians dont.

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14 hours ago, baqar said:

Would you.take some newly baked cake with you and perhaps some toys for the children and engage in social chat? Or would you make sure that as soon as the cake has been eaten, you force the conversation to turn critically to their religion and their books?

I am sure you would prefer the former option.  

So why not try it here? 

People differ. I am not very interested in how to bake cakes and would never attend to such forums. Neither am I offended or disturbed by others criticising my religious faith. (I could be if it was in a bake-cake-forum.) If I had been, I would choose forums that agreed completely with my view.

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1 hour ago, andres said:

In 5:116 the Quran criticises a belief in three Gods. God, Jesus and Mary.

I am extremely sorry, but does that trinity has name that means it was surely "Mary" and not "Holy Spirit" ?????? Please mention by name if you find any verse where it is said that Christians worshipped Marry as God, there is mention of Jesus but not Mary. 

Since there is not name, why are you than using analogy to say it was Mary since there is no verse which says in Quran that Christians called Mary as god but rather it emphasized on the issue of "Why jesus was called god" ?

Secondly, for the sake of curiosity, tell me why do Christians believe that "Jesus, who was god can be in the womb of non-god "Mary" "? Is this your belief about god that non-god can contain god ? While god cannot be contained by its creation ? I believe that the only God is one who kept "Jesus in the womb of Mary" and then "Took him out of that belly".

 

Edited by Sindbad05

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5:116,

"O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: `Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah''' 

 

The Quran here speaks about a belief in 3 Gods. Allah, Isa and Maryam. Some obviously claimed that Jesus have said his mother Maryam was also a God. The Quran does not say they were Christians or that it was about Tinity. You mentioned Trinity, I did not, but of course I cannot rule out the possibility that Cristianity and Trinity is the reason for the Quran uttering these words.

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3 hours ago, andres said:

In 5:116 the Quran criticises a belief in three Gods. God, Jesus and Mary.

The criticism may be based on a Christian sect in Arabia called Collyridianism which held Mary to be part of the Trinity.

It seems the Christians of Medina belonged to this (or to a similar) sect. 

A WIkipedia article unfairly ridicules the Prophet for confusing Collyridisnism with mainstream Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

But unless otherwise specified or indicated,the Quran almost always talks about its immediate surroundings. Thus when it describes Jews as hostile [5:82], it is talking about Jews it came into contact with, not Jews living in Russia.  Most of its references to Christians are to the Christians it came into contact with, which means Medina at times and other parts of Arabia at other times.       

 

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Sorry, I cannot explain how a God can rest in a Virgins womb. But God is almighty and could of course do so. Personally I am convinced the Virgin birth is a myth that Luke and Mathew had heard, believed and reported. No other scribe in the Bible show any knowledge of this.

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Hi Andres

The Quran was not concerned with the beliefs of the Christians of Rome or Corinth. If  Collyridians called themselves Christians, then the Quran calls them as Christians as well.

Makes sense!

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18 hours ago, baqar said:

I am sorry to say I don't see any point to this thread.

I have been away for almost two years but coming back about a month ago, I can see that the number of active visitors is very much fewer but little else has changed in common approach.   

Those who were around in the early days of Shiachat might remember that I have pointed out at times that contentious discussions cannot possibly contribute to peace in the world. I remember the flack I had to endure but that is all in the past now. 

In fact, at times, I myself may have taken part in such discussions but as best as I can remember never proactively and if I have, it still cannot be justified. Wrong is always wrong even if you do it yourself.

Ideally, this forum and its sister, the Shia-Sunni should be replaced by something else. But if they have to be there, it would be much better to restrict them to one of information exchange and that is it. No more!

It is plain common sense that if we tell other people that their religion is false or their scriptures are tainted, we are hurting their feelings and that cannot win us any friends. I am sure everyone will agree that the world we live in, we need to make friends, not enemies. With the entire Western world at the moment cocking their guns at Iran, we Shias should be especially active trying to turn enemies into friends rather than the other way round. Please remember that if we Shias are in trouble, there is a better chance that a Christian country or even the Vatican might speak on our behalf, rather than Saudi Arabia, which is hell bent on destroying every trace of our beliefs in the world. 

What we are doing in such threads, I am sure, we wouldn't do this to people in our own neighbourhood. Just because we don't know people personally does not mean we should savour the pleasure of hurting them and their feelings. 

Imagine you relocated to a city where you found your lodging surrounded on all four sides by people of other religions. To the North, was a Christian family, to the south, a Jewish, to the east, a Hindu and to the West an atheist. Now you are a good social talker. And you want to go and meet  them.

Would you.take some newly baked cake with you and perhaps some toys for the children and engage in social chat? Or would you make sure that as soon as the cake has been eaten, you force the conversation to turn critically to their religion and their books?

I am sure you would prefer the former option.  

So why not try it here? 

Don't worry nobody here is trying to tell others that their religion is wrong. A Christian asked me to give him a verse in the Quran where it is proven that The Injeel was corrupted. 

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13 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

 A Christian asked me to give him a verse in the Quran where it is proven that The Injeel was corrupted.   

If someone asks you that question and you don't know the answer, you should find out from someone privately.  

By asking here in a public forum, you are implicitly saying that their books are corrupted and therefore their religion is false.

Understand?

 

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1 hour ago, baqar said:

Hi Andres

The Quran was not concerned with the beliefs of the Christians of Rome or Corinth. If  Collyridians called themselves Christians, then the Quran calls them as Christians as well.

Makes sense!

 Like all other religions, in its infancy the Quran was a very local religion. However we do not know if the Collyrodians existed in Medina and Mekka in Muhammeds lifetime. But the possibility exist.

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Andres

It is well-recorded that there were a few Christians in both Mecca and Medina in the Prophet's time. They were a small minority, perhaps less than Jews, but a sizeable one. It is irrelevant whether they were Collyrodians  or others.

And it is also well-known that the Prophet did communicate with them. And they are the ones he needed to take their faith from. So to think that he had a false understanding of their faith does not make the grade.

For the Prophet therefore, the beliefs of the local Christians are the ones that constitute Christianity. The church in Rome can call them heretics but in their own eyes, they were Christians.

So whoever they were, whatever their name, their beliefs - not those of the people in Rome or Byzantium (Constantinople) -  constituted Christianity.

And in any case, there seems to be little justification for the assumption that the Quran is referring to Christians outside its own playing field.

Edited by baqar

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I do not believe it is possible to determine if 5:116 refers to a heretical Christian sect, Christians or some other group. Should it refer to the Bible, this is factually false, but less likely since non-christians/jews probably did not read the Bible. As you know I believe the Quran is a human product, so my guess is that Muhammed, like also many Muslims still do, believed Mary was a Christian Godess. Catholic habits can easily be interpreted so. 

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20 hours ago, andres said:

Sorry, I cannot explain how a God can rest in a Virgins womb. But God is almighty and could of course do so. Personally I am convinced the Virgin birth is a myth that Luke and Mathew had heard, believed and reported. No other scribe in the Bible show any knowledge of this.

Well, wrong interpretation, you mean that womb is capable to carry God ? Does this things qualify Jesus for god ? I do not think so. Brother, God transcends all and none can confine God or compel God. If you believe in God, you must know the meaning of what you believe "He is all powerful". So, how can all powerful be confined by something lower. Jesus a.s was not god but Prophet sent by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. 

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21 hours ago, andres said:

5:116,

"O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: `Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah''' 

 

The Quran here speaks about a belief in 3 Gods. Allah, Isa and Maryam. Some obviously claimed that Jesus have said his mother Maryam was also a God. The Quran does not say they were Christians or that it was about Tinity. You mentioned Trinity, I did not, but of course I cannot rule out the possibility that Cristianity and Trinity is the reason for the Quran uttering these words.

Above is the commentary by Aqa Mehdi Poya. 

Isa disclaims here any knowledge of the sort of things that are attributed to him by those who profess to follow him. The worship of Maryam, though repudiated by the protestants, was widely spread among the earlier churches, both in the east and the west. Isa further acknowledges that he was mortal, and that his knowledge was limited like that of a mortal, and that Allah alone is the owner of the heavens and the earth and whatever is in them, and that Allah is the almighty, the knowing and the wise. Please refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 255; Ali Imran: 2 and 3 to know pure unity of Allah and how the ideas of son of God and trinity were introduced by the writers of the New Testament. The perversion of true faith took place after the departure of Isa. For Isa's true preaching see commentary of verses 72 to 74 of this surah; and for tawaffaytani (you took me up) see commentary of Ali Imran: 55.

Every verse revealed with the reference to subject at the time of revelation of the above-mentioned, the Christains of that faction were addressed who hold both Jesus and Mary as gods. It is not necessary that it was applied to all Christians because there are certain sects in Christianity to whom this verse does not apply, But today there are majority of Christians who believe Jesus as god, so this verse applies to them as well. 


Following is the source from wikipedia.

Mormonism[edit]

In the Latter Day Saint movement, particularly The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, many adherents believe in a Heavenly Mother as the wife of God the Father. The theology varies, however, according to denomination. The only clear declaration regarding a Heavenly Mother figure is that she exists. Some offshoot denominations disavow a belief in her, some do not make her a part of the official doctrine, and others openly acknowledge her.[2]

Collyridianism[edit]

Collyridianism was a heretical Christian sect. Collyridians worshipped the Virgin Mary as their Heavenly Mother and as a Goddess. The Catholic Church condemned the Collyridians of Marian Heresies, holding that Mary was to be venerated but not adored like God.[3] The Collyridian service was similar to that of the Catholic Mass, except that the sacramental bread was not considered Christ, or a sacrifice to God, but a sacrifice to the Virgin Mary. Epiphanius of Salamis wrote about the Collyridianism and their multiple heresies against the Catholic Church in his work entitled Panarion.

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