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American healthcare is absolute robbery

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It's great for doctors, they are the bestpaid in the world compared to Canada/UK/Australia, however, it's absolutely horrible for the actual patients. It's incredibly corrupt how they can get you to do 'extra tests', and maybe drain you of your money needlessly. [NOTE: Always see a MD , don't let my post put you off going, i am only relating what happens among some].

Here in the UK, we have free healthcare from point of need. You can visit a doctor without paying anything. No matter how long your stay in hospital is, you're free to be there. You don't have to worry about insurance or lab-bills or whatever else there is. You just focus on getting better.

And i realise now just how valuable the NHS is, and universal healthcare for all.

I mean just have a watch of this:

 

Edited by uponthesunnah

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My son stepped on a needle and it broke. He had surgery to remove it in 2013. Fortunately we had very good insurance through my employer. I just finished paying my portion two months ago. With insurance, my portion was only about $4000. I don't know what it would have been without.

Capitalist medicine is cruel and stupid. I have many friends who frequently have to choose between food and their required medicines. It's just another way to keep people in poverty. 

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11 minutes ago, notme said:

My son stepped on a needle and it broke. He had surgery to remove it in 2013. Fortunately we had very good insurance through my employer. I just finished paying my portion two months ago. With insurance, my portion was only about $4000. I don't know what it would have been without.

Capitalist medicine is cruel and stupid. I have many friends who frequently have to choose between food and their required medicines. It's just another way to keep people in poverty. 

 

My mother had to be hospitalised a few years ago abruptly. We paid nothing for the time in A and E, [ER], the surgery, and the hospital stay after. I've gone time and time again to the doctors when i suffered from medical problems and paid nothing.

How many people are put off seeing doctor because of these ridiculous costs?

American doctors are also overpaid bar none. They get paid double what other doctors get paid in the UK, Canada, Australia which have universal healthcare.

They fatten their pockets while the rest suffer.

 

Edited by uponthesunnah

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1 hour ago, uponthesunnah said:

How many people are put off seeing doctor because of these ridiculous costs?

Put off? How about how many wait until their condition is an emergency? How about how many die? How many homeless? How many lost jobs, divorces, families shattered, due to illness or financial strain? 

Put off.....!

That's typically British mildness. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Aghhh we all know that. I pay $1000 a month and my deductible is $6000.

So you pay $12 000, except if you get sick or injured, then you pay $18 000. 

How much is minimum wage again? Something near $16 000/year for full time? Hm. And what is the cutoff for Medicaid - $14 000/yr? 

 

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Just now, notme said:

So you pay $12 000, except if you get sick or injured, then you pay $18 000. 

How much is minimum wage again? Something near $16 000/year for full time? Hm. And what is the cutoff for Medicaid - $14 000/yr? 

 

Welcome to America!

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Brits should be lucky for what they have. If Tories have their way, you might have a US model yourselves in the near future. 

Doctors are an easy punching bag, but their salaries are peanuts compared to hospital administrators, insurance and pharma executives, etc. Plus most doctors have a heavy student debt burden. 

Edited by magma

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34 minutes ago, notme said:

Put off? How about how many wait until their condition is an emergency? How about how many die? How many homeless? How many lost jobs, divorces, families shattered, due to illness or financial strain? 

Put off.....!

That's typically British mildness. 

 

You are so right.

Something has to change in the American healthcare system.

Is there anything in the constitution that can be used to fight against this injustice?

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17 minutes ago, magma said:

Brits should be lucky for what they have. If Tories have their way, you might have a US model yourselves in the near future. 

Doctors are an easy punching bag, but their salaries are peanuts compared to hospital administrators, insurance and pharma executives, etc. Plus most doctors have a heavy student debt burden. 

Not american doctors.They get paid handsomely, and more. Compared to the ones here in the UK, they earn 2-10 times more.

But you're spot on, the pharma et al are raking it in, especially in America. In Canada, they pay far less for drugs. In the UK, we pay 10 dollars on any prescription. Those under 18 [or in full time pre-unversity education] or over 65, or without a job, or many others who meet the criteria get free medication.

The tories are too scared to do anything to our NHS, but they might do things covertly and slowly via small-print.

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On 2/7/2017 at 1:24 PM, notme said:

^ Right.

Not to mention most doctors work much harder and much longer and more erratic hours than those rich insurance executives.

While doctors work hard, there is no doubt in my mind part of the problem here is that doctors in the US are grossly overpaid. If you compare the salary in the US to other comparable , developed countries, like Canda, the UK, even Australia, doctors in the US get paid several times more in many instances.

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4 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

While doctors work hard, there is no doubt in my mind part of the problem here is that doctors in the US are grossly overpaid.

But opposed to other countries, medical education is extremely expensive in the US, and many doctors have large student debt. Their higher pay compared to other countries (where school is cheap or free) has to reflect that. Only a minority of doctors are making an amount that would be considered statistically obscene. 

Doctor salaries are a drop in the bucket overall for health care costs. The big problem is the insurance, pharma, and biotech industries, which all raise the costs considerably. Only a tiny fraction of costs goes to a doctor, most goes to wealthy people and places higher up the totem pole.

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

France has the best healthcare and its not single payer.

Awesome. 

Not to be rude, but how is this relevant to the topic? Last time I checked, it was about debt, doctors receiving high pay checks in the US, benefits of the NHS as opposed to other systems, etc. 

"France has the best healthcare" is rather vague tbh. As a non-French I have no idea what that statement means, and is frankly subjective. 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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4 hours ago, magma said:

But opposed to other countries, medical education is extremely expensive in the US, and many doctors have large student debt. Their higher pay compared to other countries (where school is cheap or free) has to reflect that. Only a minority of doctors are making an amount that would be considered statistically obscene. 

Doctor salaries are a drop in the bucket overall for health care costs. The big problem is the insurance, pharma, and biotech industries, which all raise the costs considerably. Only a tiny fraction of costs goes to a doctor, most goes to wealthy people and places higher up the totem pole.

All of this is true, but as someone who has flirted with the idea of moving to the US and made the comparisons between fee's and eventual salary, i have to say that American doctors are still paid higher, and that is perhaps a significant, albeit smaller [relative to other factor], in your healthcare costs.

Doctors there are ridiculosuly overpaid, and i don't deny the hard work and loans one must overcome to get to a certain position, but average salaries of 200k, 300k, 400k is just murder.

Even when i wanted to move there, the prospect of money was bitter-sweet, lining up my own pocket and robbing others.

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33 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

Doctors there are ridiculosuly overpaid, and i don't deny the hard work and loans one must overcome to get to a certain position, but average salaries of 200k, 300k, 400k is just murder.

High stakes, hard work, loans, malpractice costs, and 8+ years of school and training. I think the pay is reasonable. 

Reducing doctor salaries won't cut health care costs significantly. 

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51 minutes ago, magma said:

High stakes, hard work, loans, malpractice costs, and 8+ years of school and training. I think the pay is reasonable. 

Reducing doctor salaries won't cut health care costs significantly. 

You may have a point on malpractise costs as people love to sue in America. But above that, i would say the pay is grossly unfair.

"But that’s not remotely true. The last time the OECD looked at this (PDF), they found that, adjusted for local purchasing power, America has the highest-paid general practitioners in the world. And our specialists make more than specialists in every other country except the Netherlands. What’s even more striking, as the Washington Post’s Sarah Kliff observed last week, these highly paid doctors don’t buy us more doctors’ visits. Canada has about 25 percent more doctors’ consultations per capita than we do, and the average rich country has 50 percent more. This doctor compensation gap is hardly the only issue in overpriced American health care—overpriced medical equipment, pharmaceuticals, prescription drugs, and administrative overhead are all problems—but it’s a huge deal."

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/02/american_doctors_are_overpaid_medicare_is_cheaper_than_private_insurance.html

I might move there if i find the right person, and i would put my hand up and say [if i were to pass and whatnot] i would be getting grossly overpaid.

But i  don't think it would go down well to tax salaries, but something has to give.

Edited by uponthesunnah

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@uponthesunnah if you do become a doctor, and you do come to the United States, and you find yourself with more wealth than you feel comfortable with, you can always support charitable causes. Additionally, many doctors and nurses volunteer in free clinics to serve people who otherwise would have no access to care. 

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18 hours ago, notme said:

@uponthesunnah if you do become a doctor, and you do come to the United States, and you find yourself with more wealth than you feel comfortable with, you can always support charitable causes. Additionally, many doctors and nurses volunteer in free clinics to serve people who otherwise would have no access to care. 

I don't believe in trickle-down economics. In that the wealthy should get paid so much and be left to help others from their wealth. I really think there needs to be a societal , whole-scale effort here.

It simply is not fair for working and middle class families [ofwhich my family has always  been, i come from a very poor family] to be expected to pay so much of their wealth into healthcare while doctors, big pharma et al rake in 200,300, 400k+. It's not acceptable.

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19 minutes ago, notme said:

@uponthesunnah if you do become a doctor, and you do come to the United States, and you find yourself with more wealth than you feel comfortable with, you can always support charitable causes. Additionally, many doctors and nurses volunteer in free clinics to serve people who otherwise would have no access to care. 

[By the way, these are all excellent ideas, but i meant, the american people can't be at the mercy of the good nature of some doctors]

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32 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

I don't believe in trickle-down economics. In that the wealthy should get paid so much and be left to help others from their wealth. I really think there needs to be a societal , whole-scale effort here.

It simply is not fair for working and middle class families [ofwhich my family has always  been, i come from a very poor family] to be expected to pay so much of their wealth into healthcare while doctors, big pharma et al rake in 200,300, 400k+. It's not acceptable.

 

This is all true. My suggestion was meant to provide an interim partial solution. 

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Doctors also get the ever living snot sued out of them here. 

Doctors don't even make that much tbh. $170k is average for general practitioner. Compare that to $25m+ for administrators, CEOs, drug company executives, etc. 

To give some perspective, I make around one-fourth of what a doctor makes. And that seems perfectly fair to me. I also make around 1/609 of what my company's CEO makes, which does not seem particularly fair. Doctors have ridiculous amounts of student debt, have massive malpractice insurance costs, and work exceedingly hard for their pay.

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      - = ========================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================== 
      He is the God who raised among the people of Ammi (a people who did not know the reading and writing) a great prophet from the same people, to recite God's revelation to them, and purify them (from the ignorance of ignorance and ugly ethics), and the book of celibacy and wisdom In fact, before that, everyone was in a state of ignorance and misguidance. 
      The Holy Qur'an is used for the purpose of securing the divine commandment, the requirement of Islamic hijab, to achieve cultivation of the soul, purity, chastity, and purity. Verses like:  Let us convey the believers' eyes to the unworthy eyes and protect their bodies and their bodies, which is the best of their bodies and their purity.   Eye veil O my Apostle, tell the believing men to put their eyes in vain view.   قل للمؤمنات أضضضان من أبصارهن (نور; 31) Tell the messenger to the believing women to cover their eyes with an unwise look.   Hijab in speech Another type of hijab and cover of the Qur'an is the hijab of women's speech versus non-law:  Falla is a great deal of pain in your heart (parties; 32) So do not talk to men with thin, soft lips; lest you fall asleep (sickness and despair).   Behavioral Hijab Another type of hijab and cover of the Quran is the veil of women's behavior against the non-Islamic. It is instructed that women should not walk in ways that would attract unharmed attention by showing their ornaments.  And let our Lah al-Jahran be tempted to blow us away (Ibn. 31), and they should not foot to the ground to reveal the ankles and their hidden ornaments.
      Of the discussed topics, it is clearly used that the meaning of Islamic hijab is to cover and protect the coexistence of women with nonhuman men in different forms of behavior, such as how to cover, look, talk and walk. 
      Therefore, the veil and cover of a woman is also a constraint and an obstacle to nonhuman individuals who intend to infiltrate and capture the honor of others. There is also the same notion of banning and refusing the lexical roots of chastity;  Veil and chastity The two words "veil" and "chastity" are essentially the meaning of common denial and refusal. The difference between prohibiting and restraining hijab and chastity is the difference between appearance and inwardness; that is, the prohibition and inhibition in the veil is related to appearance, but the prohibition and inhibition in chastity is related to the inner and inner, because chastity is an internal state, However, given that the effect of appearance on the interior and the external impact on appearance is one of the general characteristics of man; therefore, between the veil and the apparent cover, and the chastity and inner restraint of man, is the effect and the mutual influence; so that whatever the veil and the covering The appearance and the better, this type of veil is more effective in enhancing and enhancing the inner and inner mood of chastity, and vice versa, the greater the inner and inner envy of the The veil will look better in the encounter with aliens.  Elderly Women's Hijab The Holy Quran has pointed to this impact in a subtle way. First, it allows elderly women to dress their clothes like a tent against a non-sanctuary without the intention of throwing themselves out, but ultimately says: "If they are sober, it even means clothes like tents." Not better.  And Al-Qawada'm Al-Nawa'ah Al-Naha'ah Al-Fayyid Allah Jinnah, the Prophet of Allah, the Exalted and the Most Merciful,
      In addition to the previous relationship, between the apparel cover and esoteric dignity, the relation between the sign and the sign holder is also; that is, the apparent hijab is a sign of a certain stage of esoteric dignity with the owner of the veil. Of course, this does not mean that every woman who wears a veil and a cover is necessarily of all levels of chastity.  Is hijab an obstacle to all social delinquency? Given this point of view, the answer to these forms and the doubts of those who, for the ineffectiveness of revealing the veil and the apparent cover, is to blame the offenses of some women with hijab, because the problem of these women, the weakness in the inner veil And the lack of strong faith and belief in the positive effects of hijab and apparent cover and has passed since the Islamic veil has a wide dimension, and one of its most important dimensions is the inner and inner veil of the person who faces sin and corruption , It enjoys inner convictions and faith; and, essentially, this veil of mind and ideology, as a foundation stone for other veils, including hijab and p It is apparent, because human thoughts and ideas form their behaviors. 
      Of course, just as hijab and overlays do not necessarily mean all chaos, chastity can not be imagined without observing the apparent cover. One can not deny a woman or a man who appears naked or half naked in public, because we said that the apparent cover is one of the signs and symbols of chastity, and between the amount of chastity and veil, the relationship of influence and affection There is mutual. Some consider the relationship of chastity and veil to be a kind of relationship between root and fruit; the veil, the fruit of chastity, and chastity are the roots of veil. Some people may have apparent veils, but they have not created extraneous chastity. This hijab is the only shell and appearance. On the other hand, people claim to be chastity, and they say, "I have a heart-warming heart, God works with hearts," they entertain themselves; such humans must, in their minds, have to point to the essential thing that is within the pure, external It will cleanse and never purify the heart, it will not induce the fruitless fruit of the wilderness.  See also: Hijab with Fatima Zahra  References: Interpretation books  https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdaneshnameh.roshd.ir%2Fmavara%2Fmavara-index.php%3Fpage%3D%D8%AD%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%A8%2B%D8%AF%D8%B1%2B%D9%82%D8%B1%D8%A2%D9%86%26SSOReturnPage%3DCheck%26Rand%3D0&edit-text= http://daneshnameh.roshd.ir/mavara/mavara-index.php?page=حجاب+در+قرآن&SSOReturnPage=Check&Rand=0
    • السؤال: في علم الهندسة الوراثية يدعي بعض العلماء أن باستطاعتهم تحسين الجنس البشري بواسطة التأثير على الجينات وذلك بـ:
      ١. رفع القبح في الشكل. 
      ٢. وضع مواصفات جميلة بديلة. 
      ٣. كلا الأمرين معاً. 
      فهل يجوزللعلماء أن يفعلوا ذلك؟ وهل يحق للمسلم أن يمكن الأطباء من تحسين جيناته الوراثية؟ الجواب: إذا لم يكن له مضاعفات جانبيّة، فلا مانع منه في حدِّ ذاته.  https://www.sistani.org/arabic/qa/02115/ It seems to me, based on the fatwa above, human genetic engineering/editing for the sake of removing ugliness or increasing beauty is halal in and of itself. Also, I don't know if this is relevant, Sayyed Al-Hakeem says human cloning is halal.
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