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The Qur'aan explicitly says that those who say that God is the Messiah are kuffaar -  5:17 and 5:72. Since the three persons in the trinity are divine, Jesus is fully divine and fully human according to Christians, where do we find such phrase "Jesus is fully divine and fully human" in the NT?

I've read the NT, but can't find one scintilla of evidence of it in the NT. So, those who are unitarians in SC, why did you reject the trinity? 

 

 

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For me, its not really a matter of accepting or rejecting the trinity, rather its a matter of keeping an open mind while following Christ to the best of your ability. There are a number of verses in scripture that basically state that if you Follow Christ and recognize Him as savior, (Acts 16 29-34, Romans 10-9-10),  He will be your salvation. His predominant actions and words throughout scripture involve treating others with love and respect, and providing a saving grace. Whether it was with the woman at the well, or the prodigal son etc.So, in seeking Him, trusting in Him, and acting in a way that reflects Christ to the best of your ability, you are working in the right direction as a Christian.

When it comes to the trinity, as with other things related to God, ideas and beliefs are influenced by interpretation. So naturally you will have variation of thought. So, if you keep an open mind with regards to the subjective nature of faith and leave options on the table, while simultaneously recognizing Him as a means of salvation, then whether or not you are a trinitarian i wouldnt say is ultimately significant.

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1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

 John 10:30 "I and My Father are one.” (NKJV) ... understood by some christians to mean they are both aspects of the same God.

It meant from one and the same group that believed in the monotheism and are not disbelievers, but it was taken wrongly by Christians, I believe. 

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9 hours ago, Kamaaluddeen al-Ismail said:

The Qur'aan explicitly says that those who say that God is the Messiah are kuffaar -  5:17 and 5:72.

Where do you see this? What do you think the term Messiah means? 

I don't think Muslims deny that Christ is the messiah (5:72, like u quoted) rather the Quran does assert that it is not befitting to take Jesus as the Supreme God

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9 hours ago, iCambrian said:

So, if you keep an open mind with regards to the subjective nature of faith and leave options on the table, while simultaneously recognizing Him as a means of salvation, then whether or not you are a Trinitarian I would'nt say is ultimately  significant.

Hi iCambrian

In my experience, the Christians I know regard the godhead of Jesus as the most important element of their faith. Salvation is a part of it, of course, but not above it. But I am sure there are others like you with different views.

Anyway, I have three questions and I hope you will be able to give me three separate answers.

1. Could you kindly explain the theory of salvation in detail?

2. Is it meant for

  • all Christians 
  • some Christians or
  • all or some human beings, non-Christians included?

3. What are the precise criteria for salvation?

Thanks

 

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On 2/4/2017 at 8:37 PM, baqar said:

Hi iCambrian

In my experience, the Christians I know regard the godhead of Jesus as the most important element of their faith. Salvation is a part of it, of course, but not above it. But I am sure there are others like you with different views.

Anyway, I have three questions and I hope you will be able to give me three separate answers.

1. Could you kindly explain the theory of salvation in detail?

2. Is it meant for

  • all Christians 
  • some Christians or
  • all or some human beings, non-Christians included?

3. What are the precise criteria for salvation?

Thanks

 

Howdy,

As we all know, with every religion you have a plethora of varying views among adherents, but ill see what I can do from my personal thoughts.

Explain the theory of salvation. Well, as a scientist, I cannot call it a theory, but im not here to knit pick so...

In a general sense,

John:36 is commonly quoted. " For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

I have a pretty liberal view on things, but as I had noted above, Acts 16:31, Romans 10:9, John 3:14-15, scripture is really permeated with verses that basically describe or state, that those who follow Christ, or believe in Him, or live by His word, or recognize His sacrifice etc...will be saved. Christs salvation serves to redeem mankind from our sinful state.

Christ is generally considered to be, not only a savior with regards to the hereafter, but a figure who is spiritually active in our lives as we speak. He is actively in our lives, carrying us. Eternal life is not necessarily something that begins after you die, but begins once you accept Him into your heart.

Those who arent saved, would of course be the hypocrites, the sinners, the people who have a hard heart and simply reject Christ.

If you read the book of Mathew, theres actually a parable in there about ah...Christ separating sheep from goats.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

And, the parable continues on in which the coin flips and Christ addresses those that did not help their brothers and sisters, and for them, they were sent to eternal punishment.

Theres the story of the blindman and the begger. Lazarus I believe it was begged for crumbs of a rich man. The rich did not care to provide for him and was ultimately punished.

There are really a lot of stories and parables that you can read and develop your own thoughts on...things like moral values.  Just things to consider and ponder on. Corinthians 9-10 has some more as well.

Hope this helps explain some of my thoughts for number 1
 

I also want to add that, in my view, scripture was written and did pass through the hands and minds of people, thousands of years ago. Cultures were different, taboos were different, society, intelligence, findings of science etc. were all different. So, much of scripture, I take with a grain of salt.  For example, if there are verses related to people wearing mixed fabrics going to eternal hellfire, I typically recognize this as a product of some old school thought of people who lived with a different culture and way of life, as opposed to believing in this being more of a literal word for word kind of statement.

Edited by iCambrian

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2. Is it meant for

  • all Christians 
  • some Christians or
  • all or some human beings, non-Christians included?

 

Christ came for all of mankind, which includes non Christians. Though this is different from saying that all of mankind will be saved. Christ came to restore all, but it does not mean all will accept His sacrifice.

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3. What are the precise criteria for salvation?

This is sometimes a point of contention among various groups. There are varying views, but often I come across some who have sort of a "drop the hammer and bring the justice to non Christians" kind of view, while others have sort of a, "Christ is actively fighting in everyones lives and is going to pull everyone through", kind of view. Then plenty of views in between relating to interactions between good works and recognizing His sacrifice.

So, its all over the map depending on the sect or maybe even location or culture.

But personally, I fall more into the "Christ is active fighting for us and is going to pull many of us through" camp. Some parables in scripture, like the one in mathew in my previous post, appears to imply that good works may have an association with salvation.  Other verses, such as John #:14-16 or so, could be interpreted as, salvation only being for those who recognize the sacrifice of Christ being "lifted up", as Moses lifted the burning snake in the OT. 

Ultimately, scripture, isnt something we can understand in a tangible way. Reading about an apple is different than holding and tasting and smelling and hearing the crunch as you bite into an apple. So, you get this natural variation in interpretation across varying communities of people.

So who gets saved in my opinion? I guess anyone who becomes aware of Him and the gift that He has brought to us. But ya know, i dont consider religious views as knowledge.  Just thoughts and ideas.

I do want to add though, I think that Christ can interact with non Christians as well. Say for example, someone grows up and lives a life in which the message of Christ was conveyed to them in a certain way which they didnt accept Him. If that person were to pass away, I think Christ would present Himself for the sake of providing a final opportunity for a saving grace.

But its all just thought. These thoughts come from a Christian perspective, and can only be made if Christianity is assumed to be truth. I would say religious views are generally faith based. Independent religions like Christianity, Islam and Judaism, or even others, couldnt be objectively proven over one another.

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One thing I notice, that Quran instructs us that the Torah and Jewish Scriptures at the time of Mohammad's life was accurate:

Sura 5:68 (Al-Maida) - "Say: 'People of the Book (Christians and Jews), you stand for nothing until you observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord."

Another thing we notice is that we have the dead sea scrolls and other copies of "the Book" that was around at that time when Mohammad said that. So we have the versions "not corrupted" that were from that time period where Mohammad says to observe the Torah. 

Now, those sea scrolls and that Torah also says:

"11 I, even I, am YHWH (Adonai, The Lord)
And besides Me there is no savior." - Isaiah 43:11

So, if we believe that one, then NO ONE can be our savior or messiah, except for God Himself. Will God share His glory with another? Certainly not. 

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